Re: John Dee....the original 007

druid wrote:

I think following Crowley's trail is a waste of time... and following him weakens the moral strenght we badly need.

How does it specifically weaken moral strength?

Is it possible for people to follow Crowley's teachings and not weaken moral strength?

Please define specific examples of what moral strength is and specific examples of what may weaken it.

Using lost performatives and other ambiguous semantic structures only add to confusing the situation.

17 (edited by Zejith_Themis 2007-08-09 13:00:39)

Re: John Dee....the original 007

Bhang: my answer's the last post on page 1, and i should make a  specification where i was unclear, about Choronzon as Samael:

Dee had no access to "De Origo Mundi", as it hadn't been found yet (as far as we know). He knew the name most probably from both Hebrew mysticism and qabalistic grimoires. sorry about dropping the name without specifying that, it's just that i love that particular alternative Genesis and it was the first thing to come to mind.

I should drop some links to short expositions on the system itself. The fact is, whether you consider thier (Magicians') elective reality-tunnel to be an efficacious self-hacking method or not, simply finding out what they were (and are) on about and how they proposed to go about it helps weed out a lot of noise on the subject.

I'll hunt down the links, i know hermetic.com and some others were already nicely stacked in some thread here...

Love is the law, love under will.
   
     Zejith Themis
      .:420-510:.
    FIAT IUSTITIA
    RUAT COELUM

18 (edited by Zejith_Themis 2007-08-09 13:09:15)

Re: John Dee....the original 007

Some links:

http://www.hermetic.com/enochia/essay-enochiana.html

An modern Enochian practitioner's take on the system .. really he links out in his article to much else including Rowe's stuff, so no need to provide that. Rowe gives a simple presentation of the system and how it's been used. I notice his (Hildebrandt's) opinion of Tyson is "goofy".

http://www.hermetic.com/enochia/index.html

And the main page on Hermetic.com for the system.

Another site with stuff on and by many others using the western mix of cabala, hermeticism etc. is

http://www.hermetics.org/ebooks.html

who seem to have divided up that section of the site by category since the last time i checked, but it does all seem to still be there. This one was my motherlode getting started..

Hermetic, Golden Dawn, Magic, Kabalah and Grimoires cover most of what's pertinent here, i'm guessing. But pretty much the lot of it's worth getting and perusing at will... i have most of the old list dowloaded, and that done back when i was on (faulty) 56k at that. Was worth it to me then, and would be painless on any better connection.

Cheerio!

P.S. - and with regard to the original post in the thread, the 007 signature was even drawn to look like two eyes with the left hand shielding them in a  kind of salute. Dee had a real thing with the 7...  though the heptarchic enochian system is the least explored, or at least written about, of all... THAT would be the place to invent some good stories that don't have to worry about facts getting in the way, plenty of room for mystery! Even got the spooky-looking un-transcripted planetary sigils  ;-)

Love is the law, love under will.
   
     Zejith Themis
      .:420-510:.
    FIAT IUSTITIA
    RUAT COELUM

Re: John Dee....the original 007

covertmetaphor wrote:
druid wrote:

I think following Crowley's trail is a waste of time... and following him weakens the moral strenght we badly need.

How does it specifically weaken moral strength?

Is it possible for people to follow Crowley's teachings and not weaken moral strength?

Please define specific examples of what moral strength is and specific examples of what may weaken it.

Using lost performatives and other ambiguous semantic structures only add to confusing the situation.

Maybe druid was just giving warning.  Delving in magic might be very dangerous.  Some scary things happened over there in Scotland.  Messing with magic can be like someone asking you to operate a particle accelarator, or space/time continuum to establish an a-priori for utilizing computer controlled laser to target DNA codons which manifest a disease, at a precise point and time, with non-linear time involved in the process.

I really don't know very much at all, I'm studying Theosophy and a little study in Anthroposophy, and I'm new at it, only a few years so far.  That Zejith_Themis seems to very competent.  I've read that in Judaism, you didn't even leave the Torah to study the Qabbalah until age 40.  I've also heard of females who delved in the Wiccan ways, go to Christianity simply because of the trouble they brought upon themselves in that direction.  To me the serpent simply symbolizes Wisdom of the forces of Nature.  This is a neutal force used by both the Right Hand Path and also The Left Hand Path.  You better be able to protect yourself from all kinds of well, I wouldn't even be able to describe all the perils.  Whenever I mention any specific religion, never limit me to that specific religion. Also beware the jub jub bird and the frumious bandersnatch.  I like anti climax.  Amicable endings and all that.

Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
----------------------------------------------------------
You have to believe in the impossible in order to become.

20 (edited by Nyarlathotep 2007-08-09 18:16:12)

Re: John Dee....the original 007

( I have a somwhat disjointed writting style and ideas fly around, some of them when started die soon afterwards, bare with me (;


Following Crowley IS a waste of time, the reason being that following ANYONE is a waste of time. I love his books and I read some of them, but to put too much focus on the man and his ego and whatever about his character can, in my opinion, make a person mis out BIG TIME on other things.  Here is a shamless example from Adam Jones who plays guitar for the band Tool. He said in an interview that some other interviewers were criticizing him for being a "shoe gazer" on the stage. He said they completely missed out on all the lights and projections (and basically the message) because he wasnt rocking out swishing his hair and being a rock star.  This kind of thing goes for authors and artists all the rest. If you focus too much on the person, then the art goes (FART NOISE) gone.

There is so much esoteric stuff with Crowleys work and many others that I just pick and choose what I want. Yes I try to get the whole picture, but to claim that " I got it" is just hoo haa.   I enjoy the work of Lovecraft and have met people who havent just read his work but completely understand, on a magickal level, the power of the visions and stories.  I've bumped into a Lovecraft elemental and it was one of the more real encounters I've ever had.  He got most all of his stories from dreams and I feel that there is an archetypal dream world that he literally mapped out.  In the Esoteric Order of Dagon there is a fella that keeps trying to put a Thelema spin into the Order.   For some reason to keep hearing about true will this and true will that drove me batty. I like Crowleys stuff but I dont completely adhere to it.  I use his Thoth Deck but I'm not a Thelemite. There are some things that I just dont read because I dont feel gravitated toward it.  I agree with this one comedian I heard who was hillarious when he said he would read ANYTHING, even stuff Hitler wrote.....BUT he will not touch Dianetics lol. He said the reason being because he doesnt know what page it happens when you just lose it.  I even have a friend who says he "gets" it. (shivers) lol. Its funny, we joke about it but still. I did a little research into scientology and wooooo boy there is somthing wrong.

Zejith Thmis, wouldnt you feel that its all about what you gravitate toward?  Who is to say whats "best" for every single person like how can somone say studying Crowley is evil and what not. I mean, it's obviously evil for them and thats basically where the buck stops.  Another thing, I really like how Ian Xel Lungold defines morals and ethics. He says that Bush in fact is a very moral person along with the rest of them. What they are doing is all very moral. The point being:

Morals are a set of ascribed rules that are laid onto you and your conciousness. Morals are a blanket solution to spontanious problems.
Ethics shine from within yourself out into the world. Ethics is spontanious solutions to spontanious situations.

So, it seems folks that are trying to be as moral as possible, whether they realize it or not, are just trying to put a set of ascribed rules over everyone.  This seems to be phasing out of existence and is being replaced by ethics.

Awsome thread. I'm learning alot with this excellent forum. To keep in touch with the title of this thread in particular, I havent read too much into John Dee though I have read disinformations Book of Lies about John Dee and the apocolypse and all that. Its a really good book, but after hearing what other people have to say about enochian magick I just dunno.

Re: John Dee....the original 007

http://forum.noblerealms.org/img/avatars/1176.jpg

Well Done (As Usual).



Nyarlathotep

.......its all about what you gravitate toward.

Who is to say what's "best" for every single person?

Like how can someone say studying Crowley is evil and what not.

I mean, it's obviously evil for them and that's basically where the buck stops.

[size=16]Zactage !!![/size]


The Ongoing kak kak kak kak kak kak kak (Spoon In Throat Gagging !) About A Given Messenger, Without Regard For Individual Response / Resonance To The Message, IS(IS) What Sparked This:

http://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?id=3435


[center]Fear not what lies ahead, for you are about to experience a Glorious Transformation

And although the prophets speak of doom and destruction, WE assure you that the darkest hours are already upon you

And they are propelling you towards the light.

What awaits is the brilliance.[/center]

BTW:

bathwaterandbabythrowers:

ongoing recruitment and sponsorshit can be found here:

http://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?id=3263

red flags and tight-ass ointment free with signup.

11   23   11

22 (edited by Zejith_Themis 2007-08-10 01:06:38)

Re: John Dee....the original 007

And SiriArc bringing wonderful flow and connectivity as usual!

Laughter truly is the best medicine/banishing ritual.

Nyarlathotep said:

So, it seems folks that are trying to be as moral as possible, whether they realize it or not, are just trying to put a set of ascribed rules over everyone.  This seems to be phasing out of existence and is being replaced by ethics.

Love that quote, and the accent shoud be on "whether they realise it or not" as all too often the study of practical paths is hindered by assuming as one's own  the arbitrary and person-specific mores of some particular teacher.

As for "following Crowley", you can't follow him anywhere, 'cause as i've mentioned in another thread....

".... 'e's bleedin' DEMISED!"

and furthermore the Grand Ol' Pouf was clear on one crucial point, though one would have to have read him to know it:

"I do not want to father a flock, to be the fetish of fools and fanatics, or the founder of a faith whose followers are content to echo my opinions. I want each man to cut his own way through the jungle."  - A.C.

That is he expected to furnish (metaphorically speaking) a machete, some quinine and a provisory map of known paths, not take you by the hand down the path; Nor furnish the detailed "complete picture" others quite verbosely pretend to (pretend in the sense of honest pretence, not to imply any fakery).

And insofar as providing such primers I think he pulled it off rather well, though folks of our generation and younger might find the summarization of the same concepts as expressed by more modern followers of the same path to be more linguistically accessible.

In the end, you can't find out if you resonate or not with something if it's never presented to you without adulterations, filters, NOISE.  That was all I wanted to address, really. Still waiting to find out the reason behind that warning.

Love is the law, love under will.
   
     Zejith Themis
      .:420-510:.
    FIAT IUSTITIA
    RUAT COELUM

Re: John Dee....the original 007

Zejith_Themis

Still waiting to find out the reason behind that warning.

Why ?


simply tune your dial to white noise.......

11   23   11

Re: John Dee....the original 007

Why?

hehe, good question... I don't know, maybe I'm expecting to find some EVP in it. :-)

Love is the law, love under will.
   
     Zejith Themis
      .:420-510:.
    FIAT IUSTITIA
    RUAT COELUM