Re: Theory on Reality

Hildegarde wrote:

Example of a physical law: Law of gravity
Example of a metaphysical law: Law of Cause and Effect

I would say that these are not Laws. These are concrete building blocks of what we refer to as reality. The fact that refer to them as a law is merely for ease of communication. A law would be "You cannot do this or this will happen". The "Law of Gravity" cannot be broken. It is not possible. There will always be a force pulling towards the center of an object. Even flying is not breaking the "law". Flight compensates for the downward thrust, it is not breaking it, it is just creating an opposite and more powerful force. I know that you can read this and interpret it to say that Gravity is in fact a law, but please try to understand that im explaining my viewpoint as best as possible, and take it the way i mean it. 

Hildegarde wrote:

How do you know for sure? What is the basis for this perspective?

One could argue that there are no certainties in this world. You can only go off of what you have observed and felt to be true. Of course, that path of argument would eventually deteriorate to petty bickering, so i will just say that As of right now, my idea that the universe does not come with laws, or a guide, is the most reoccuring concept i have seen when it comes to who holds power, and who decides laws.

Hildegarde wrote:

All things are connected even if you do not realise it.
There is always outside influence.
Therefore by your definition, nothing is natural.

Connection and manipulation are two different things. I will use the deer and wolf analogy again. A deer and wolf are connected, but neither intentionally manipulates the others natural evolution. A wolf chases a deer. A deer runs from a wolf. A wolf does not intentionally change the evolutionary process of the deer so it becomes slower or weaker, and a deer does not intentionally change the wolf to be less of a predator. They do influence eachother, but there is no intentionaly manipulation occuring.

Hildegarde wrote:

Again it depends on what you mean by intelligence.
A big problem in this society is ignorance, which is a lack of intelligence.
People are educated in this society, read hundreds of books and understand hardly anything. This is programming and not intelligence.
Programming is the problem. Intelligence, which is understanding and consciousness, is the solution.

This is a very good point, and is going to be added to my theory on reality. Intelligence and programming are two different things, and i stand corrected.

CortexVortex wrote:

Are we only accountable to ourselves?
Or maybe a collective self?

In my eyes, we are only accountable for ourselves. Life's soul purpose is the pursuit of what you want to do. Other individuals are mainly used for that goal. It is a harsh view, but as of right now i have yet to find a higher meaning in life then doing what you feel you should do.

I know many are going to argue this view, and i welcome it. I dont really enjoy having this viewpoint, but it is how i feel right now, and im hoping someone will say something to change my mind.

Montalk wrote:

The level of freewill varies too much from person to person to say this absolutely. Sometimes a reptilian has more freewill, sometimes less.

Please don't take what i say so literal. I'm sure you understood what i was getting at with the reference.

Montalk wrote:

when freewill cannot be outright violated, it can still be manipulated by something with lesser freewill but greater intelligence and technology.

I would say that this argument contradicts your point about a cow having less freewill then a human. What im getting from this statement is that freewill is limited by intelligence and technology, which i do not agree with. I may be misinterpreting your statement, so correct me if i am. I do not agree that there are degrees of free will. A persons free will can only be changed through some form of mind control. Free will is only limited by a persons determination, but it is still always there. So basically, i read your comment as "When free will cannot be outright violated, intelligence and technology can control your thoughts" which i do not feel is the same as manipulating free will.

Montalk wrote:

Then regardless of how it used to be, there are laws now.

Im not saying that laws dont exist, im saying that they arent natural to the universe, and only exist while something with power enforces them. Any law is a way of suppressing natural life and instinct, and in my eyes it hinders the development of your true self.

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Re: Theory on Reality

twistd wrote:

Connection and manipulation are two different things...They do influence each other, but there is no intentionaly manipulation occuring.

True. I misunderstood.
If you apply the concept of action through non-action, then sometimes even influence without the intention of manipulation can be manipulation. That's another point to consider.

twistd wrote:

Im not saying that laws dont exist, im saying that they arent natural to the universe, and only exist while something with power enforces them. Any law is a way of suppressing natural life and instinct, and in my eyes it hinders the development of your true self.

Laws promote life. If there were no laws there would be chaos. They do not suppress natural life and instinct.
If you follow Law, you will have more life and natural tendencies. Only when you don't follow Law, e.g. become programmed, do you suppress life and become delusional within the ego.

"The universe is on fire with wonder, beauty, and ecstasy." - From the Undines to Humanity

Re: Theory on Reality

If I can talk you into making a stupid decision, the decision was yours but I manipulated you into choosing that over something else. Thus I manipulated your freewill without directly violating it because you still had the choice to do something different. When freewill cannot be outright violated, it can still be manipulated in subtle ways, the key here being that the person being manipulated still has other options available. That is why becoming aware of manipulation is often enough to put an end to it - showing that it never had real power to begin with other than that which we gave it.

There is no such thing as complete thought control over a regular person... thought influence or thought suggestion maybe, but those who do come close to being fully under permanent thought control have already succumbed to a long series of weakenings whereby their freewill slips away by the end. The difference between violation and manipulation is why extortionists go to jail while salesmen make a living.

Also, I think infinite lawlessness must come with infinite responsibility, and only the Creator is capable of that. Esoteric literature of various types talk about this, that the farther something exists from unity with the Creator, the more laws it is subject to. Even for people, the laws of physics hold while for those of a higher development some of these laws can be bent or broken. So if you want complete lawlessness, time to start identifying your limits and breaking through them one by one til you become infinite.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

34 (edited by Twistd 2006-07-20 23:44:16)

Re: Theory on Reality

Hildegarde wrote:

Laws promote life. If there were no laws there would be chaos. They do not suppress natural life and instinct.

If the only thing preventing chaos is Law, wouldnt chaos be a natural thing?

Im going to contradict myself here intentionally. I suppose from another point of view one couild say that Law is natural, because it has evolved as we have, and has changed over time.

Hmm.... im going to need to think deeper into that.


Montalk, i completely agree with you that it is possible to be manipulated, im only saying that it is impossible to remove free will or even alter it, mainly because it is always your choice what you do.

Montalk wrote:

The difference between violation and manipulation is why extortionists go to jail while salesmen make a living.

That is an absolutely brilliant distinction. Im definately saving that quote.

i basically agree with everything you just said except for the part about free will.

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35 (edited by Twistd 2006-07-20 22:59:01)

Re: Theory on Reality

****OFF TOPIC****


I've decided that real time chat with you kids would be very informative and effective, so ive decided to use the IRC channel shown in

http://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?id=3457

Ill be on the IRC chat whenever im logged in to the forums, so if u feel like discussing in real time, ill most likely be there. looking forward to hearing from you guys.

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36 (edited by Hildegarde 2006-07-20 22:58:43)

Re: Theory on Reality

montalk wrote:

...some of these laws can be bent or broken

Yes Laws can be bent. Just to be pedantic I don't think Laws can be 'broken'.
You can use strategies to prevent them from affecting you, which is in effect bending them, but it seems like you have broken them.

However I understand your point. Maybe if the discrepancy between the vibrational realities is large enough, laws can be infact broken.

But in order to bend Laws you need to:
*Be aware of the Law
*Understand the Law
*Understand the Law until you learn how to bend it
*Bend the Law. You can only do this if you understand how it works deeply.

So by internalising the Law, and making it a part of your Being and Self, you become one with it, so then you decide to use it or not.

"The universe is on fire with wonder, beauty, and ecstasy." - From the Undines to Humanity

Re: Theory on Reality

oh i dont know. i think you could break a law easier then you could bend it. I agree that to bend a law you have to have a complex understanding of it, and that is no simple matter. If i were to shoot you in the head, i would be breaking a law. If i were to kill you in a way that i cannot get in trouble, then i would be bending the law. Obviously, breaking it would be simpler.

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Re: Theory on Reality

Yes Twistd. That is correct.

I was referring to 'natural' laws tongue. Not artificial ones created by humans.

"The universe is on fire with wonder, beauty, and ecstasy." - From the Undines to Humanity

Re: Theory on Reality

oh ahah. gotcha :-D


aaand the tag "Village Idiot" suddenly makes sense...

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Re: Theory on Reality

Ive been reading the different topics, and a lot of people are basically bad mouthing certain things that have been said on this forum, so let me clear something up once and for all.

I don't give a damn if you feel the need to say things like

quote wrote:

But I think people need to sharpen their energy sensitivity so they can start discerning EVIL and stop pussyfooting around categorizing it as some intellectual things.

or

quote wrote:

Thank you.  I came *this* close to geting on NR earlier this morning and saying a near identical comment, regarding the recent spate of posts here at NR regarding "What is good?"  "What is evil?" and "oh, the folly of labeling!" and all this going in circles, and what basically amounts to a whole lot of intellectual masturbation.  Your comment works just as well though.

But you could at least have the respect and the courage to bring it up in the topic relating to it, instead of practically bad mouthing it on a thread that is unrelated.


Maybe this will convince some people to stop hiding from a retort. Thank you, that is all.

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Re: Theory on Reality

Twistd wrote:

Thank you for the links smile

To mention on General Principles:

The links were ‘skewed’ today and were not as intended - They have been updated with the # of the post being referred to rather a ‘supposed’ direct link (that changed - i.e. they worked fine when originally posted).

11   23   11

Re: Theory on Reality

thank you for the update :-)

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Re: Theory on Reality

Twistd, I think a constructive discussion comes from being clear on the definitions and meanings of words in the proper context.
Words as 'labels' can have different connotations for different people in different circumstances.
This prevents the discussion going in circles or progressing into argument.

"The universe is on fire with wonder, beauty, and ecstasy." - From the Undines to Humanity

Re: Theory on Reality

alright, for the sake of advancement, lets abandon the label discussion for now, and focus on different views of reality. Why should a person avoid evil? Why cant you learn from evil? How far are you willing to go to gain knowledge? Everything ive seen on this forum is related to a quest for power, and my question is, how far are you willing to go to obtain that kind of power?

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Re: Theory on Reality

twistd wrote:

Why should a person avoid evil? Why cant you learn from evil? How far are you willing to go to gain knowledge? Everything ive seen on this forum is related to a quest for power, and my question is, how far are you willing to go to obtain that kind of power?

Again it depends on what you define as evil. People have different interpretations of evil. One might think a turtle, a lollypop man or even a demon as evil.

*You should face evil.
*You can learn from anything including evil.
*Obtain knowledge if the benefits exceed the costs
*Quest for power = more power = more energy = more growth = more creativity = more joy

"The universe is on fire with wonder, beauty, and ecstasy." - From the Undines to Humanity