31 Reply by ermolai (edited by ermolai 2004-12-04 03:41:51)

  • From: sw tz rl nd
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

Marcus wrote:

However that is very different when in physical reality.  For example; within your dreams, all the characters are an aspect of your own consciousness.  However, in physical reality; each consciousness has its own experience.

I think it's more subtle than this. In physical reality / shared dream, each soul has a direction and autonomy of its own. However we meet a particular soul because they represent something (an archetype) in our own dream, and because we represent something in their dream. So it's important to both recognize this autonomy (ie. this person is not "mine") and that we have something to learn from this person. I think it comes down to detachment in the end.

Here's what a psychologist has to say about this. He talks about the personal dream but I think it applies equally well for the shared dream:

James Hillman in Re-Visioning Psychology wrote:

Multiplication of persons may be used as a therapeutic tool in order to bring home the realization that "the ego complex is not the only complex in the psyche". By actively imagining the psyche into multiple persons, we prevent the ego from identifying with each and every figure in a dream and fantasy, each and every impulse and voice. For the ego is not the whole psyche, only one member of a commune. Therapy works through the paradox of admitting that all figures and feelings of the psyche are wholly "mine", while at the same time recognizing that these figures and feelings are free of my control and identity, not "mine" at all.

Personifying helps place subjective experiences "out there"; thereby we can devise protections against them and relations with them. Through multiplicity we become internally more separated; we become aware of distinct parts. Even should unity of personality be an aim, "only separated things can unite", as we learn from the old achemical psychologists. Separation comes first. It is a way of gaining distance. This separation (in the language of alchemy) offers internal detachment, as if there were now more interior space for movement and for placing events, where before there was a conglomerate adhesion of parts of a monolithic identification with each and all, a sense of being stuck in one's problem (p.31)

I love this quote smile I have found this separation to be very important for me in the past months. Instead of taking everything personnally, I can see more clearly what's going on, feel the energies and act more impeccably, while before it was a confusing mish-mash of everything that was paralysing me.

On another note, I realized recently that those with a strong STS polarity tend to live fully in the dream/unconscious and thus the people they meet are literrally the archetypes of their own dreams of which they are God. So maybe STS means "service to own dream", while STO means "service to cosmic Dream".

ermolai's Website

  • Registered: 2004-10-15

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

Mainly my point was to illustrate a difference between personal dreams, and waking reality (shared dream).

They both share the same "first person(s)" (if I can use that term) consciousness...however both experiences - although having similarities - are not the same.

And yes; although I would phrase it differently, I agree with the message from James Hillman.  (I think it's very important not to get hung-up on phraseology.  That happens far too often; causing people to miss the message, as well as fail to realise they are often saying the same thing in a different way).

Thought Manifestation

Marcus's Website

33 Reply by lyra (edited by lyra 2005-02-13 14:14:00)

  • lyra
  • lyra
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  • From: my own private idaho
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

An interesting article appeared on Rense today, exposing the Cult behind Ramtha, which was the source of the movie "What the Bleep Do We Know?!"

The article criticizes some of the beliefs of the cult of Ramtha which I actually do think have validity, beliefs such as, take charge of your life, don't be a victim, etc.   I think that's actually true, and well and good.   But overall I see how there is major corruption, greed, STS hierarchial manipulation and disinformation aplenty in this cult.  Any group that centers around one head guru, and requires the members to blindly follow along and "climb the hierarchy ranks" is just pure STS.   And BS   wink   

Anyway, it's an interesting read, so enjoy:

http://www.wweek.com/story.php?story=5860

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy shit ... what a ride!"  - Anonymous
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"I get by with a little help from my (higher density) friends."
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lyra's Website

  • morningsun76
  • morningsun76
  • the answer has been with you the whole time
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  • From: In two worlds
  • Registered: 2004-09-10

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

Interesting article.  Definitely a cultish type of group if it has ranks and rules for "advancement" and all that sort of thing.  You don't have to spend thousands of dollars on retreats to get true spiritual wisdom.   I agree that this sounds like a phoney STS-oriented group.   Like most successful cons, some of what they're saying is probably true which is what draws a lot of the people in.   But if it's mixed in with garbage, it might as well be all garbage unless you're so wise as to be able to tell the difference 100%.  But if you are that wise, then you really don't need to be joining groups like this in the first place.

35 Reply by Iriana (edited by Iriana 2005-02-13 19:46:02)

  • Registered: 2005-01-17

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

morningsun76 wrote:

Interesting article.  Definitely a cultish type of group if it has ranks and rules for "advancement" and all that sort of thing.  You don't have to spend thousands of dollars on retreats to get true spiritual wisdom.   I agree that this sounds like a phoney STS-oriented group.   Like most successful cons, some of what they're saying is probably true which is what draws a lot of the people in.   But if it's mixed in with garbage, it might as well be all garbage unless you're so wise as to be able to tell the difference 100%.  But if you are that wise, then you really don't need to be joining groups like this in the first place.

Well, in defense of the Institute of Noetic Scences. I think it is worth pointing out that a LOT of people are invited to speak at the gatherings and conferences. It is kind of like listening to a radio talk show. The guest is invited, we listen and decide for ourselves as individuals whether or not the topic has any merit. Is is not a Christian organization or New Age organization by any means. The mission (statement)has been, esentially, to bridge the world of science and metapysics/spirituality. I have been a member of our local chapter for over a year and a half - and these groups that meet once or a few times a month are made up of atheists, skeptics, scientists, spiritual types and the average Joe and Joanne. And in my experience, for each person's interest there as many reasons as people that attend . This is  a worldwide organization and the overall member base is very  culturally, spiritually and scientifically diverse.

morningsun76 wrote:

Interesting article.  Definitely a cultish type of group if it has ranks and rules for "advancement" and all that sort of thing.  You don't have to spend thousands of dollars on retreats to get true spiritual wisdom.   I agree that this sounds like a phoney STS-oriented group.   Like most successful cons, some of what they're saying is probably true which is what draws a lot of the people in.   But if it's mixed in with garbage, it might as well be all garbage unless you're so wise as to be able to tell the difference 100%.  But if you are that wise, then you really don't need to be joining groups like this in the first place.

I learned abut the whole Ramtha thing several years ago and had seen JZ on video and/or tv several times and heard her speak as herself and also as Ramtha. It had always seemed a vary cultish situation and community to me and kind of creepy. Never liked that they stockpliled weapons either, at least back then-but then Ramtha is a 35,000 year old warrior who defended the underdogs!  (o;   Anyway, I can also recall that pretty early on I found Ramtha to be a strange one. JZ also seemed kind of aloof and strange as well.

But I must say that when I heard her interviewed the other night (guess where, lol!)  JZ, herself, had a lot of things to say that I found compelling this time around. I perceived (no idea if I am accurate on this) that she seemed older (as she is, of course) and much wiser and **much** more grounded. Truthfully, she seemed incredibly genuine in personality and spirit. I have no idea about Ramtha these days but I'd be willing to take a look at something recent, if given the opportunity.

The difficult thing about any large and organized community that has an agenda (bad or good) is that like people, some do wrong and then grow and evolve, some just make unwise choices, and no matter what, no matter how many personalities are present that might be wonderful, somehow the Disagreeables will stand out, as well, and create an impression that may or not be an accurate at any one point in time in the life of such a community. But nonetheless such an impression could last for years.

Hard to say what exactly  is going on up at that property, in Washington. I admit I am curious. Would be intreresting to see if my overall sense of it all would be  the same - or radically different.

Got the word about the movie later than many. I do want to see it but may have to wait for the video now.

Iriana's Website