16 (edited by morningsun76 2004-12-01 13:17:41)

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

ermolai wrote:

I find it disturbing to see that the movie is apparently sponsored (at least in part) by the Institute of Noetic Sciences which has, according to this article, an highly-negative agenda in regard to the New Age / NWO.

...

Proofs? Well, this is the kind of future this institute is preparing "for us":

http://www.indigosun.com/april99/houston.htm

Read it and weep.

Ermolai,

That seems to be an extreme bible-banging phoney "Christian"  conspiracy website.  Within the first few seconds of looking at it one can see warnings of Satanism and Rapture.   

Also, I scanned through the indigosun article.  I find the author's point of view basically aiming at truth, though not without his own errors and stumbling blocks.  I'm not sure what you're getting at with the "read it and weep" statement. 

If you're seeing something in these articles that others are missing, please elaborate.

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

morningsun76 wrote:

That seems to be an extreme bible-banging phoney "Christian"  conspiracy website.  Within the first few seconds of looking at it one can see warnings of Satanism and Rapture.

I know, but it also use interesting facts for its arguments. It would be IMO a mistake to reject something entirely just because of its Christian bending.

morningsun76 wrote:

Also, I scanned through the indigosun article.  I find the author's point of view basically aiming at truth, though not without his own errors and stumbling blocks.  I'm not sure what you're getting at with the "read it and weep" statement.

Maybe you need to do more than scan it if you want to see the meaning behind these nice words. It took me a while to understand all the subtilities of the disinformation. But maybe disinformation is not even the right word, it could be considered the STS approach to "spirituality", where the goal is to improve the physical world (ie. the dream/illusion) -- by controlling the emotional/intellectual worlds -- rather than use it to transcend dualities and solve paradoxes. It reverses the way the different plans of reality should be used (at least if the goal is the liberation from the illusion). This approach is so much part of the belief-systems of the Matrix that it's frightening.

There is much more I could say but I think that if you are willing to read behind the words of this article, you'll see all this quite clearly.

18 (edited by Marcus 2004-12-02 04:13:42)

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

ermolai.  We need to be sure that we correctly distinguish between the Matrix (a system of control), and Physical Reality.

Few true spiritual teachings state that their goal is to escape Physical Reality.  Rather they show us to bring Physical Reality and Spiritual Reality into harmony with one another.  (The ying / yang for example).

Likewise, we need not resolve paradox.  Paradox is a result of the ego (matrix?) and thus the paradox is entirely irrelivant, and can thus can accepted as a natural aspect of reality.

Using thought to affect Physical Reality, has no basis on the function of the Matrix - unless of course we intend it to do so.

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

I read the indigosun.com article in it's entirety. That's exactly the kind of thing I'm seeing in the NBIC convergent technologies: a fake spirituality based on material primacy. Everything in that article will be accomplished through technology, and its effect will be to steer people away from true spirituality. For every true spiritual practice, there will be a technological analog designed to be so much easier and attractive.

These techno-spiritual practices will draw people like moths to a bug-zapper. Their spiritual faculties will be fried by over-stimulation, like a child's attention span is fried on television. They will be snared by an empty spectacle. Jean Baudrillard wrote about the apple which is hyper-real: more perfectly red than any apple could ever be in nature, more perfectly delicious, more perfectly symetrical and pleasing to the eye. Such will be the design of the new spirituality. It will be a model based on a sick melding of natural design with flawed human understanding and desire. (The "goodness" of the redness, deliciousness, and shape of the apple is purely a function of the human perspective, which is blind to other attributes it may have and unconcerned with its place in creation.)

The indigosun.com article just pretends that the horrific evils which have accompanied and supported the rise of our technology don't matter--like they will all be washed away once we're plugged into the bliss of the matrix. But it does matter, because technology has a pedigree. Our technology comes from evil. It is based on physical slavery; on the exploitation of nature and life. Good cannot come from evil. The technology and civilization we have today (which will give rise to the techo-utopia of tomorrow) is built on death and bathed in blood. It can only bring more of the same. Sure, our technology sometimes appears to do good. It gave rise to the internet which is allowing us to communicate right now. But this "goodness" was born from the same evil culture which alienated us in the first place! (You appreciate the dentist if you have cavities in your teeth, but the same civilization that trains dentists also fed you the sugary foods which put the cavities there in the first place!)

I haven't seen the movie, but what I hear about it rubs me the wrong way. I'm glad ermolai pointed out the Noetic Institute's involvement. There are two questions I can think to ask: Where did the money come from to make the movie? And, what is the effect of the movie on its audience?

According to the website, this movie was made for $5 million. That's a lot of money for a lightweight new-age propaganda piece. You could probably scare up that kind of capital if you were making a horror movie or something marketable, but what kind of investor is going to look at the script for this movie and say "Looks like a blockbuster! Here, have a couple hundred grand!"? From what I've read, this movie is a sly infomercial for the Ramtha School of Enlightenment. The three director/producers (William Arntz, Betsy Chasse, and Mark Vicente) are all students of JZ Knight, otherwise known as Ramtha. JZ Knight/Ramtha has been a known scammer for twenty years. Mark Vicente is making a more bold-faced propaganda piece for her called "Where Angels Fear to Tread". Now, I haven't looked too deeply into it, and I may be wrong, but I'm willing to bet a lot of the money used to make both of these films was extracted from the pockets of Ramtha devotees who bought teaching materials and paid her speaking engagement fees.

The problem with a movie like this is that people confuse it with the truth and then they get defensive when you question it. Such a movie innoculates its audience against further development of the ideas it presents. It is intended for those who haven't yet been exposed to the ideas it contains. Iff they ever encounter a living teacher after having seen the movie, they will be immune to his or her words because they will think they already know! When you point out the weaknesses in the movie, devotees will get mad because they think you're attacking the ideas themselves, or more specifically, their capacity to appreciate "lofty" ideas. Then they brand you a Philistine and refuse to listen to you. At no point do they do further research outside of the movie's paradigm. The audience for this movie is the fitfully sleeping masses, the unfulfilled soccer moms and such. The movie fills them with a drug, causing them to want more of that drug. They want that touchy-feely emotion, that empty-headed sense of wonderment. So they go off to buy Ramtha books because she was the nice lady with the pleasant aura who kept showing up in the movie and filling them with mindless bliss. Movies like this do not shock you or wake you up, they simply soothe and calm you without spurring any spiritual growth.

--Justin

20 (edited by Marcus 2004-12-02 05:49:01)

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

Czyx; I just watched this movie, and you are quite right - it doesn't provoke the viewer to go out and do further learning exercises.

However - it certainly does make one aware that reality isn't quite what we thought it was.

Slowly it seems science is catching up to, and beginning to share the same perspective of reality as many spiritual teachings have professed for millennia.

This is a very good thing indeed.  Reality comprises of many differing aspects some physical others non-physical.  Reality isn't always as it appears on the surface.  Zen has taught this for thousands of years, because it views the world in a non-physical, non-egocentric way.

We must also not confuse Physical Reality with the evils that have been commited within physical reality.  Physical science and reality themselves do not commit evil; rather that evil is commited by mans own hand of ignorance (which leads to all other forms of negativity).

For those that live purely from a physical perspective and thus rely only upon science, it was only a matter of time before science evolved to perceive the same thing as Zen has.  Thus Quantum Science.

The problem isn't in the physical science.  Physical knowledge has finally allowed us to peak into the non-physical.  Because by its very nature reality is comprised of both the physical and the non-physical.  This means two things:

1)  We cannot ignore one aspect at the expense of the other.  To elaborate; we must not follow Physical Reality and ignore the Spiritual.  Likewise, we must not follow only Spiritual Reality and ignore the Physical.

2)  True understanding of Spirituality shows that reality is both physical and non-physical.  It can therefore only follow, that eventually true and complete understanding of Physical Reality will also show reality to be both physical and non-physical.

Thus we have finally became able (which was entirely obvious) to arrive at the same conclusion by following two different paths (Spiritual and Physical) to their ends.  At which point we discover they merge into a oneness.

Therefore the problem is not by which path one achieves wakefulness.  We may sit on a mountain under a tree for nine years, or watch a movie about Quantum Physics.  It is all the very same thing.

The true problem is in how these different approaches are used and conveyed.

The movie conveys the nature of reality very, very well.  But it implies (though categorically does not state!) that when one awakens (reaches enlightenment) that it is the conclusion (and self serving).  This is obviously faulty.

However the ultimate fact is that this movie brings with it a new message to the masses; one which can serve to awaken!

Perhaps ultimately we can always look for hidden agenda’s behind each and every message, but sometimes the very fact that these messages serve a certain (higher?) purpose defeats that very agenda.  Further if one gets too caught up in examining this agenda, they are being as much manipulated by that agenda as those that fall into it.

For example, the Matrix is designed to keep us asleep.  But without the Matrix we would have no point of reference in order to understand what it is like to be awake.  Thus through suppression, the Matrix serves a higher purpose which is counter to its own agenda.

This ultimately can be the only result of this movie, and any techno-spirituality.

That which enslaves, also teaches us the true expression of freedom.  Not because it is evil, and neither because it is good.  But simple because the nature of existence can ultimately only serve its own purpose, it is not able to be contrary to itself.

Only in the relative short-term and from a human perspective is its nature “evil“?.

That is something to bear in mind when we see these people that only appear to wish to harm the evolution of the human race.  They are wrong for sure, and yes they should be fought or stopped etc.  But in the final end-game; they can do nothing but serve the evolution of man’s spiritual growth.

And ultimately, this movie is one more step along that path…even if it does place a few obstacles and suppressions further along that path.  They will be dealt with after they have been reached.  Just as in the same way, more and more people are beginning to awaken due to the increasingly overt nature of the Matrix.

I believe the whole problem of when the human race awakens as a whole is not if it will happen…but rather when and how it will happen.  The inner knowledge of an awakened mind shows that global awakening can do nothing but happen.

Thus our concern is reduced to how these negative agendas affect individuals in the day-to-day world, and in the short to medium term.  Long term and for the human race as a whole, the negative agendas are doomed to failure…

21 (edited by lyra 2004-12-02 05:58:56)

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

czyx,

You have good points about Ramtha's connections to the filmmakers....in fact, the woman channeling Ramtha, (or maybe she is Ramtha?...) has a prominant role in the movie as one of the people being interviewed for their views.   However....the movie isn't "New Age Propaganda".   Even though I saw it and had a shoulder shrugging attitude towards it, I can't slam it either.  It's not bad.  It's just not fantastic.   It's a movie about Quantum Physics, not New Age philosophy, although it delves into thoughts affecting matter in positive and negative ways.....If that can be labeled "New Age."  I don't think it is, I believe it's fact.    So if nothing else, this movie is introducing Quantum Physics to the masses.   So don't knock it til ya tried it.  It's not bad really.  But again, you have a good point about Ramtha.  I did wonder myself who that woman was and how in the frickity frack she wound up in the movie!   big_smile

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy shit ... what a ride!"  - Anonymous
-----
"I get by with a little help from my (higher density) friends."
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22 (edited by ermolai 2004-12-02 06:13:23)

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

czyx, I think you're right on regarding the technological link. It makes no doubt many of the feats promoted on the article could be done through technology alone. I do feel however that it is just one part of the equation, and that the development of psychic powers will be another. The C's have said that the reptilians are hoping to trap us in 4D, and promoting all the "wonderful things" we can do through astral manipulation seems to be part of this trap. As long as we are out of touch with our soul/spirit, they are happy.

Marcus, I don't think the problem is so much in the false duality between materiality and spirituality, but rather in the way we use these two different plans of reality. The physical world is just a dream, but we need it to find the keys to move ourselves to different, hopefully less distorted illusions. However using spirituality to "improve" the material world (for example to establish "world peace") only traps us in a golden jail. If you understand this, you're already much closer to the truth than the large majority of "spiritual seekers". I haven't yet fully integrated this realization, but I feel it's a Big One. And I did weep when I understood this.

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

ermolai wrote:

Marcus, I don't think the problem is so much in the false duality between materiality and spirituality, but rather in the way we use these two different plans of reality. The physical world is just a dream, but we need it to find the keys to move ourselves to different, hopefully less distorted illusions. However using spirituality to "improve" the material world (for example to establish "world peace") only traps us in a golden jail. If you understand this, you're already much closer to the truth than the large majority of "spiritual seekers". I haven't yet fully integrated this realization, but I feel it's a Big One. And I did weep when I understood this.

I agree.  Though I tend to feel that percieving the physical world as a "prision" is also a trap.  (It's only a prison if we don't open the doors - which we are entirly capable of doing).

Whether or not we percieve the physical realm as "real" depends on our definitions.  Using what we can learn within the physical realm assists us with developing other areas of our being.  That doesn't necessarily mean we should move "outside" of the physical realm.  But neither should we use what we learn of the "outside" to futher confine ourselves.

It appears that we should intergrate each aspect of reality into a unity so that we can seamlessly exist (percieve?) in each aspect at the sametime.  So; yes we can use spirituality or thought to alter the physical realm, I feel that is a good thing.  On the condition that we don't further tie ourselves to the physical.

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

Marcus wrote:

I agree.  Though I tend to feel that percieving the physical world as a "prision" is also a trap.  (It's only a prison if we don't open the doors - which we are entirly capable of doing).

Whether or not we percieve the physical realm as "real" depends on our definitions.  Using what we can learn within the physical realm assists us with developing other areas of our being.  That doesn't necessarily mean we should move "outside" of the physical realm.  But neither should we use what we learn of the "outside" to futher confine ourselves.

I agree, but as I already stated the issue here is not this false duality.

It appears that we should intergrate each aspect of reality into a unity so that we can seamlessly exist (percieve?) in each aspect at the sametime.  So; yes we can use spirituality or thought to alter the physical realm, I feel that is a good thing.  On the condition that we don't further tie ourselves to the physical.

We don't need to "use spirituality or thought to alter the physical realm", especially if this is to rely on our myopic minds. We automatically move to different and more subtle parts of the Dream whenever we transcend dualities and pass initiations. This is a lot of grand words, but it's basically an everyday life process.

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

Well ermolai, I'm yet to be convinced that all reality is entirely a dream.  However I do certainly believe that certain aspects of how we experience some aspects of reality occur in a dreamlike fashion.

I maybe interpreting this incorrectly, but I assume you are commenting on the differences between how you and I define reality?

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

Marcus wrote:

Well ermolai, I'm yet to be convinced that all reality is entirely a dream.  However I do certainly believe that certain aspects of how we experience some aspects of reality occur in a dreamlike fashion.

Reality is simply that which is perceived. If you are awake, then this physical world is your reality. If you are dreaming, then the nonphysical dream world is your reality. Anyone who has ever had a lucid dream knows just how real it feels; just as real as this world. So, what's the difference? smile

"Fear is the great barrier to human growth. Unknowns create fears. When these Unknowns become Knowns the fears diminish and disappear, and we are able to cope with whatever confronts us." - Robert A. Monroe

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

I believe that physical reality is just a dream. I also believe that the self is an illusion. The seer and the seen are one in the same. All is one.

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

Neomatrix wrote:
Marcus wrote:

Well ermolai, I'm yet to be convinced that all reality is entirely a dream.  However I do certainly believe that certain aspects of how we experience some aspects of reality occur in a dreamlike fashion.

Reality is simply that which is perceived. If you are awake, then this physical world is your reality. If you are dreaming, then the nonphysical dream world is your reality. Anyone who has ever had a lucid dream knows just how real it feels; just as real as this world. So, what's the difference? smile

Maybe our consciousness has been incarnated into physical form, in order for us to determin that difference...

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

There is no difference, really. Conscious experience is conscious experience wherever it happens. I think that the reason for incarnational experience here is to develop some useful changes in our consciousness, including the development of a left-brained intellect which can be used to face and overcome fears.

"Fear is the great barrier to human growth. Unknowns create fears. When these Unknowns become Knowns the fears diminish and disappear, and we are able to cope with whatever confronts us." - Robert A. Monroe

Re: What the $#@% Do We Know!?

Consciousness when on its own is not subject to division between self and other.  i.e. All is one.

However that is very different when in physical reality.  For example; within your dreams, all the characters are an aspect of your own consciousness.  However, in physical reality; each consciousness has its own experience.  This is one of the many differences in how consciousness is expereienced depending upon "where" it is.

Another aspect would be as you illustrate - the development of intellect...which again requires discernment between "self" and "other".  If this wasn't the case intellect could not develop as our consciousness would not possess the ability to create separation from the oneness.