• Registered: 2007-07-06

Topic: Where REAL emotions come from.

This is something I've read awhile back, and I haven't gone back over it again before posting the following.

Gurjieff explained that our retinue of emotions are born in our instinctual center.  He has explained the instinctual center as simply being responsible for autonomic functions such a breathing, heart-rate, thirst, hunger, eliminations, survival.  So I imagine some use of emotions are naturally utilized by the instinctual center. 

I had trouble coming to terms with, or agreeing with his explanations.  He gave as verification of his position, examples of the way people always come full circle.  For example, one person loves another, yet this love always comes around to manifestations of its opposite; anger, I know the real opposite of love is fear.  We know anger can become hate.  So, I might not want the love from another knowing how she almost certainly will manifest its opposite.  Of course, it can quite literally come about as a result of my own actions.  Even so, it is still a love not consistent.  So, could this reversal come about through fear?  Is it possible I say or do things that will make her fear that my love is evanescing?  I met a girl I have absolutely no attraction for, but she seems to embody strength and loyalty.  I'm simply seeing love as committment to enhancing another's growth.  Sex is great! but it is also very minor event relatively speaking.  I know, those last twelve words will evoke reply. 

What also gave me reason to lesson my attention to his view on the matter, was that the REAL emotional center does not harbor emotions that can oscillate to the opposite expression.  I think I might come to terms with this, by realizing once I do manifest an emotion, and situations occur that clearly make me reassess this emanated emotion, it is truly the situation that demands attention in that regard.  Not altering my original emotion.

However, I am discussing a higher center.  Four-D.  Do any of us even have this center?  Perhaps this type of discussion can give birth to a center that only a higher level of being possesses.

Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
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  • montalk
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Re: Where REAL emotions come from.

Antaeus wrote:

However, I am discussing a higher center.  Four-D.  Do any of us even have this center?  Perhaps this type of discussion can give birth to a center that only a higher level of being possesses.

That's where I disagree with Gurdjieff and Ouspensky. They say that our higher emotional and higher intellectual centers are virtually nonexistent until we have done all the work of de-mechanizing ourselves, "building moon" within us (aka the magnetic center). Only if you do The Work and achieve perfect self-remembering and not-doing for years can you even develop a stirring of the higher emotional center, let alone the higher intellectual center. Anything else is delusion, because unless you have joined a School and become Master, you are just a machine dreaming it has freewill and mistaking its own mechanical impulses for "higher" feelings. That's what Fourth Way says, which may apply legitimately to some people.

I think instead that we can access our higher centers in rare flashes that increase in occurrence and longevity the more we pay attention to them and nurture those feelings. It's not an all-or-nothing thing, where you are totally devoid of higher stirrings until one day the Master arrives in his well-prepared home. You are right that the higher center does not oscillate to its opposite, because unlike the lower centers it does not have a negative and positive half, and is instead a unified whole. If we rationalize away those higher impulses as impossibilities because "we are just machines" then, if we follow the Fourth Way regimen, we may become less like machines in the sense of being less blindly reactive, but more like machines in the sense of becoming cold and metallic. So from an anthroposophical perspective I would say Fourth Way is heavy on the Ahrimanic side -- not to advise rejecting it, but to not be limited by its proposed limitations or limit yourself to its incompleteness.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

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  • From: Shores of Lake Titikaka
  • Registered: 2006-05-25

Re: Where REAL emotions come from.

I am curious to know where the emotional energy that is manifest in "enthusiasm" comes from.  I wonder if this comes from the 4d center you speak of?

Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter

1+1=1
  • Registered: 2007-07-06

Re: Where REAL emotions come from.

Montalk wrote:  So from an anthroposophical perspective I would say Fourth Way is heavy on the Ahrimanic side -- not to advise rejecting it, but to not be limited by its proposed limitations or limit yourself to its incompleteness.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now you bring up Anthropo-sophy.  Ahrimanic forces are mentioned as well.  Elementals are not evil forces.  It would be like saying all humans are evil.  I tried to study Anthroposophy but it is an exhaustive study, and Theo-sophy is also.  I'm unable to devote myself to Theosophy and Anthroposophy.  The former was first, so I'm sticking with it.  I've seen the name Ahriman in old writings describing the polar opposite of another whose name I fail to recall.  It struck me as simply one person who was involved in Initiation.  Ahriman was one aspect of a whole person who was struggling with himself within the venue of Initiation.  So I feel reluctant to associate his name with the personification of evil. 

One way I can side with your presumption to point out error in Gurjieff's writings is the particular times we are living in, and the increasing speed in which events and even personal growth are occurring within individuals.  We are losing incrementally and increasingly, the luxory of being able to take in information and chew on it at a leisurely pace.  We are being forced in way, to accept things intuitively.  I would say, in regard to my first post that we might hesitate before letting passion intensify emotion.

I'm enjoying the pictures of how you might be reacting to the eigth word in second paragraph. 

titmouse, is enthusiasm different than passion?

Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
----------------------------------------------------------
You have to believe in the impossible in order to become.

5 Reply by titmouse_ (edited by titmouse_ 2008-01-13 17:07:39)

  • From: Shores of Lake Titikaka
  • Registered: 2006-05-25

Re: Where REAL emotions come from.

Antaeus wrote:

titmouse, is enthusiasm different than passion?

The reason I brought up the word "enthusiasm" is because twice now in the past 6 years friends who were raised in the Jewish faith have refered to me as having much enthusiam.  I have felt a great passion for life and have never called it enthusiasm, myself, so I was wishing for some here at KR to give me a bit more background from their perspective.  I see enthusiasm as a shallower form of passion; something not as deep as what I think of when I think of the word "passion".  My enthusiasm I can control, but the deep sense of passion for life I can not. Words may be interpretted differently by different people, so I am interested in what others think about this word "enthusiasm".


A side note:  I was talking to a friend today, the one who mentioned "enthusiasm". I came home and posted a comment about passion on another board because the topic was on my mind; then came directly over to NR and saw this new thread at the top of the list and posted my enquiry about "enthusism" (as it directly relates to passion).  Another synchronicity is appears.  Thanks!

Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter

1+1=1
  • lyra
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Re: Where REAL emotions come from.

Antaeus wrote:

I'm enjoying the pictures of how you might be reacting to the eigth word in second paragraph.

Then you must be enjoying imaginary pictures, 'cause I'm sitting 10 feet from him and trust me, he's not reacting to you.  He's heating up dinner while simultaneously working on an experiment in the back room.  Seems to not be too concerned with whatever you wrote here.       

Interesting too that you overlooked the ironic contradiction in presuming that Montalk of all people - the guy least likely to have an emotional reaction to anything written on this forum - would have a reaction to your assertation that he's presuming.

Maybe you need to take more time to read his posts and articles and actually know the person you're talking to, in order to avoid foot-in-mouth presumptions such as this?

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy shit ... what a ride!"  - Anonymous
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  • Spi
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Re: Where REAL emotions come from.

He's heating up dinner while simultaneously working on an experiment in the back room.

That reminds me, I haven't used the microwave.. I learned to cook with the pan - I feel great, and the food tastes a lot better!

  • From: Upland, California
  • Registered: 2007-01-20

Re: Where REAL emotions come from.

Lyra wrote:

He's heating up dinner while simultaneously working on an experiment in the back room.

An experiment? I'm interested. What might this experiment be about?

Strengthen your microcosm. Love. Knowledge. Faith.
http://montalk.net/metaphys/42/principl … ion-part-i

9 Reply by Antaeus (edited by Antaeus 2008-01-13 18:09:27)

  • Registered: 2007-07-06

Re: Where REAL emotions come from.

lyra wrote:
Antaeus wrote:

I'm enjoying the pictures of how you might be reacting to the eigth word in second paragraph.

Then you must be enjoying imaginary pictures, 'cause I'm sitting 10 feet from him and trust me, he's not reacting to you.  He's heating up dinner while simultaneously working on an experiment in the back room.  Seems to not be too concerned with whatever you wrote here.       

Interesting too that you overlooked the ironic contradiction in presuming that Montalk of all people - the guy least likely to have an emotional reaction to anything written on this forum - would have a reaction to your assertation that he's presuming.

Maybe you need to take more time to read his posts and articles and actually know the person you're talking to, in order to avoid foot-in-mouth presumptions such as this?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I only said it in a light-hearted manner.  I did insert in my reply to him, concepts that he is not even guilty of suggesting.  Its not so much that I am bad, but rather from people of quality I'm attempting get a reply that adds depth.  I know it is wrong.  I should not have tried that tactic. 

titmouse, I'm really not sure of the difference between passion and enthusiasm.  Without my going and checking it out, I would say that enthusiasm might simply be passion at a slightly lower energy, and thus easier to control.  From more than one source, I have had it presented to me that we are utilizing elementals when we let very strong emotions well up in us.  So then the question would be, "do I want passions I am unsure I can control welling up in me?"  I like fierceness, it is not anger, hatred, or aggression.  It is simply unwavering will.  I would not like the thought of being guilty of causing harm or injury due to anger, hatred or blind aggression.  As a matter of fact, I think I can blend humility with fierceness.  I can have an unwavoring will while remembering my relative unimportance in the overall scheme of things.

Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
----------------------------------------------------------
You have to believe in the impossible in order to become.
  • From: A place forgotten
  • Registered: 2006-05-15

Re: Where REAL emotions come from.

I think you start possessing that centre when you have faith that it exists within the world and the knowledge that it's within the energy systems that permeate  our reality. Yes, you can work to become a master over a lifetime, but you can't let that grand journey inhibit your baby steps. In fact, when you start living and being from that future self, you merge the timeline and accelerate your development. As always, patience, respect and humility are in the cards for its healthy unfoldment.

"Don't eat any wooden nickels."

Magical_Mongoose's Website

11 Reply by titmouse_ (edited by titmouse_ 2008-01-14 10:36:10)

  • From: Shores of Lake Titikaka
  • Registered: 2006-05-25

Re: Where REAL emotions come from.

Antaeus wrote:
lyra wrote:
Antaeus wrote:

I'm enjoying the pictures of how you might be reacting to the eigth word in second paragraph.

Then you must be enjoying imaginary pictures, 'cause I'm sitting 10 feet from him and trust me, he's not reacting to you.  He's heating up dinner while simultaneously working on an experiment in the back room.  Seems to not be too concerned with whatever you wrote here.       

Interesting too that you overlooked the ironic contradiction in presuming that Montalk of all people - the guy least likely to have an emotional reaction to anything written on this forum - would have a reaction to your assertation that he's presuming.

Maybe you need to take more time to read his posts and articles and actually know the person you're talking to, in order to avoid foot-in-mouth presumptions such as this?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I only said it in a light-hearted manner.  I did insert in my reply to him, concepts that he is not even guilty of suggesting.  Its not so much that I am bad, but rather from people of quality I'm attempting get a reply that adds depth.  I know it is wrong.  I should not have tried that tactic. 

titmouse, I'm really not sure of the difference between passion and enthusiasm.  Without my going and checking it out, I would say that enthusiasm might simply be passion at a slightly lower energy, and thus easier to control.  From more than one source, I have had it presented to me that we are utilizing elementals when we let very strong emotions well up in us.  So then the question would be, "do I want passions I am unsure I can control welling up in me?"  I like fierceness, it is not anger, hatred, or aggression.  It is simply unwavering will.  I would not like the thought of being guilty of causing harm or injury due to anger, hatred or blind aggression.  As a matter of fact, I think I can blend humility with fierceness.  I can have an unwavoring will while remembering my relative unimportance in the overall scheme of things.

Are you suggesting like a lion, or the mouse_ that roared?

Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter

1+1=1
  • Registered: 2007-07-06

Re: Where REAL emotions come from.

titmouse wrote:  As you suggesting like a lion, or the mouse_ that roared?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Actually, when playing with that idea, I have had an image of a lion come to mind.  Lunging on its prey fiercely to kill it and eat it.  But, it still didn't dismiss the notion.  I'm talking about simply carrying a goal through to its realization without being distracted by fear or collateral thought processes.  If I'm under the sway of passion, I'm in a storm that can easily change direction.   So, even if I am under a passion and follow through reaching the realization of my goal, I probably did a lot of actions along the way that I strongly regret.  I'm not suggesting that I am capable of acting in this manner, I'm weak and get led by emotion often.  Its simply an idea that I have liked toying with for a long time.  It seems like something a person better than me is capable of. 

There is always that possibility of admiring a certain behavior could eventually lead to my actually learning to operate that way.

I gotta go to work now, I have weird hours.  10 am to 6 pm.

Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
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You have to believe in the impossible in order to become.

13 Reply by EON

  • EON
  • EON
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Re: Where REAL emotions come from.

thats interesting information... I could very well use some thoughts to stress and get someting out of it. I have been trying to know from where exactly do I feel and in an attempt to understand this i wrote something in my personal diary about feelings.

Since, I don't have the diary with me but I will try to pull it out as much as I can recall...I understood that my feelings came from what defined the state of my mind. I am sad because there was something that hurt my believe sytem. Now, when I use the word believe system it should imply to what makes me. We all are different I believe and have different personalities a product of what we are happy to carry out with and what not. And the sum of our personality and the world that we have learnt so far is what makes our believe system which of course includes how you have learnt to feel. When we were born thats when we were pure and felt what we felt and cried out of all the bad vibrations we felt from the world. But as we grew up what made us is a different emotional system based on understanding and acceptance of what we grasped even if it was taught to you how someone cried and how someone acted when they got happy and everyones expression was different to produce their feelings but we cling to what felt good to us and carried out and the sum of all that made our emotional system.

Now, a world where lies and deception plays the highest role to supress one another there are manythings that mislead to become a dummy feeling machine and I believe they choosed heart that is the point to head for to put someones whole effort and thought power so they are weak to take out easily..thats why most of the spiritual people or the most of the strong mind person dies from. And by doing so we put ourselve into two situation one we are very vulnerable to our emotional center not realizing the bigger picture and thinking inside the box instead of outside the box and we end up doing what we end up doing. Second would be to think from the outside of the box and know what best suits to that box...you don't want to  nail a cardboard box to make it strong you will only make it weak...and thats what the human kind is weak at. they carry in those boxes that is just burden cuz they don't know who and how they are filling this box but they are being played by the matrix.

but the conclusion is simple your truest feelings should come in the light of the ONE in the highest of one's knowledge and with respect, humbleness and love. To end this you are the product of your emotional (etherical) plane because thats what drives you and that is what guides you and now with only knowledge and awareness could we fight to be truely oneself and set a state of mind with love and clarity to patiently play what we are here to play. I like the taoist phrase it says

To know the path
you walk the path
and the path that you walk becomes your way

am really not making the exact sense and its ofcourse not the exact words of that saying but it does make sense to what it is trying to express. which is to say you leave  things the way they are and just be yourself and those things follow you.

On a personal note I wanted to ask a question. I have had very hard time feeling and everytime i truly feel its all pain and sufferings that i feel behind those smiles and laughs and cries that i have produced in a life of deception where I realize the purpose of evreyone around me was to make me feel and be one of'em emotional driven blind folded inside the box ants and i didn't like the idea. But yeah I feel something moves in my body. like my veins and my eyes the whole left side belongs to her everytime i listen to love songs or anything it moves but at the same time i don't know what it is... it probably could be my kundalini energy or i don't know my soul?? am really confused I do intent and will to a inner surrender but I don't like the idea of me surrendeing to anyone outside of me.

I have hard time fighting this sometimes the only thing that hurts me is her opinion moving inside of me I treat that feeling like my assumptious g/f who is with me and who I shall love to in future but sometimes that movment is something that upsets me on my thoughts that are not even wrong or anything and I end up stupid things like drinking or smoking pot...and today I smoked pot cuz I was upset on a emotional level with that feeling and senation in my veins which sounds stupid but I thought she was the only hope for me that moves inside of me and could be my true guidance and I guess she might not be or what she wants is what i don't want to..but this whole idea might sound stupid but ir eally do'nt care but thats just my honesty of revealing something too personal ...only cuz i don't fear anything and anytime of manipulation outside of that range I don't get upset if i loose anything or people piss me off outside of me and i take it as some characters acting stupid to steal energy and thats the matter of the fact but now I don't want to be weak from inside to is that a worth taking step to be strong from inside too. And strong doesn't mean that I will become hitler and take other's life or torture anyone I just want to make it big in life and be someone in my own eyes to look upto which don't involve being rich or having 70 wifes as promised in islam its just that a good person with a good vision and a good feeling for everyone regardless of their purpose and everything I make it to the one who projected me here.

" Love is the understanding and unspoken bond between you and the creator "

"Loving is an art that is the state of creation"

..........Lyrically am suppose to SHINE.........
..........I am the ONE that makes you  BLIND........
..........And am that darkness that lets you SHINE.........
  • Registered: 2007-07-06

Re: Where REAL emotions come from.

Magical_Mongoose wrote:

I think you start possessing that centre when you have faith that it exists within the world, and the knowledge that it's within the energy systems that permeate  our reality. Yes, you can work to become a master over a lifetime, but you can't let that grand journey inhibit your baby steps. In fact, when you start living and being from that future self, you merge the timeline and accelerate your development. As always, patience, respect and humility are in the cards for its healthy unfoldment.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That first sentence is excellent M_M.  I imagine your reference to that "future self" is the Divine Aspect within us.  I haven't really wanted to bounce those idea's of my having a future self I can communicate with.  It seemed a little too outside the box for me.  However, if I am imagining what divinity is capable of, this concept might not be so far fetched after all.  I like watching Japanese animated movies and one of them involves a story-line concerning countless bifurcating timelines and entities involved in trying to oversee certain events in the past to keep certain people on a beneficient timeline.  It was complicated and I really didn't follow it easily.

Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
----------------------------------------------------------
You have to believe in the impossible in order to become.
  • Registered: 2007-07-06

Re: Where REAL emotions come from.

EON wrote: 

To know the path
you walk the path
and the path that you walk becomes your way

am really not making the exact sense and its ofcourse not the exact words of that saying but it does make sense to what it is trying to express. which is to say you leave  things the way they are and just be yourself and those things follow you.~~~~~~~~~~~~

Brought this to mind: 
Francis Thompson, says:

All things by immortal power
Near or far
Hiddenly
To each other linked are,
That thou canst not stir a flower
Without troubling of a star

Over the years, I realized the only reason I used drugs or alcohol was because I wanted to.  If I said it was for any other reason, and actually believed that crap, I would've never stopped.  It is easy to make sure those reasons don't go away, and I can always count on other crappy situations to pop up in my life, if the current reasons leave.  Don't pay my big mouth any attention, you'll decide for yourself in time. 

That poem is describing how even a little beautiful flower has a link with divinity.  In fact, its own personal inner god just like we have.  Ours is simply more evolved.

Good judgement comes from experience; experience comes from bad judgement.
----------------------------------------------------------
You have to believe in the impossible in order to become.