• Registered: 2006-01-11

Re: Birth of Jesus - Sept. 11, 3 B.C.

kid mongo wrote:

Unless there is someone who can bring me a soul or a "divine" person or something or other (entity, power, force?) (which by it's nature, is wholly incapable of human comprehension- how convenient!), all that can be said of such matters is that they're nice stories which have no beneficial effects on the world.

If you wish to be intellectually honest with yourself, you should be willing to concede that that last sentence "no beneficial effects on the world" should really be "no beneficial effects for kid mongo", since your criterion is about showing something to you, an act independent of that something being real and valid to others.

An analogy would be trying to show the distinctiveness of the colors in the rainbow to someone who is color-blind.  Just because that person cannot sense color doesn't mean those colors do not exist for other people and that they have intrinsic value to them.  You don't even have to use color-blindness as the example; blindness as a whole can be just as effective an analogy, or hearing or any other sensory perception.

And that's really what interaction with the Divine comes down to, a perception.  And for that reason, it cannot be transferred, any more than I can transfer my appreciation for a piece of music to someone born deaf.  I may be able to communicate with a deaf person through a variety of other means (words written on paper etc), and via those means we could talk logically and rationally all day long about the concept of music... but in the absence of a miracle (the restoration of their hearing), they will never know it and I can't do anything to change that.

This is also the reason why science is ill-prepared to even discuss the matter of the Divine, because the critical scientific method step of "Observation" is based on the lowest-common-denominator of common (among the majority of the population) objective/consensus sensory perceptions.  Unfortunately, the perception of the Divine, while very real to a great many people, is not objective in the same way, and hence is not considered valid for doctrinal science as it is currently known.  But that gap is a failure of the scientific method itself, not of the validity of our own awareness which even according to science must ultimately be held paramount.

You ask for people here to prove to you that the Divine exists.  We cannot.  Maybe one day the appropriate healing miracle will happen for you (as it has for many of us here who previously did not "believe" either, until the Cosmic Anvil hit us, so to speak), but that's between you and the Divine you presently deny.  In the meantime I hope your path passes through that point, and that the way there treats you well.

62 Reply by calpamu

  • calpamu
  • Guest

Re: Birth of Jesus - Sept. 11, 3 B.C.

T-Ren wrote:

calpamu,
Do you write those on your own?

I hope so, there was only I sitting at the chair when I did,
althought I did feel a ghostly presence looming over my shoulder
at the time ,(does alone count if spirits are present?)and I had 4 pints of Cider in me smile

63 Reply by kid mongo (edited by kid mongo 2007-09-11 03:18:30)

  • From: Isle of Lucy
  • Registered: 2005-11-07

Re: Birth of Jesus - Sept. 11, 3 B.C.

If you wish to be intellectually honest with yourself, you should be willing to concede that that last sentence "no beneficial effects on the world" should really be "no beneficial effects for kid mongo", since your criterion is about showing something to you, an act independent of that something being real and valid to others.

I concede this point.


And that's really what interaction with the Divine comes down to, a perception.

Alright. If  you can perceive it, tell me what this divinity is like.

Unfortunately, the perception of the Divine, while very real to a great many people, is not objective in the same way, and hence is not considered valid for doctrinal science as it is currently known.  But that gap is a failure of the scientific method itself, not of the validity of our own awareness which even according to science must ultimately be held paramount.

Aare you sure you're not substituting what's "real to many people" with "belief?" Because I don't think (given your point above) "many people" believe that they are "divine." Certainly not the rank and file religionists that comprise the major religions. Divinity that exists in humanity simply isn't taught that way in Christianity, Judaism or Muslim traditions. And my point is that religions are just transferrence of information, money, and rituals.

You ask for people here to prove to you that the Divine exists.  We cannot.

Thank you for your honesty. I respect your views.

edit-

"Divinity" is just a word if one cannot live it. The only words (Living Words) that one can live and be certain of is: I AM. This is common sense. I AM. I am here, present. I am one and equal with this word. I can live as one with this word. Is it written: "The Word was with God, and the Word was God?" Think about it, won't you?

There will be two Ages. The first: The Age of Power. The next: The Age of Equality.

kid mongo's Website

  • Registered: 2006-10-26

Re: Birth of Jesus - Sept. 11, 3 B.C.

kid mongo wrote:

To find our way back to the "divine". Are you saying that something more profound and more powerful (the "divine") exists separate and outside of man?

It is only the corrupt establishments who teach the false religion of skydaddy being far far away, it actually says in the Bible "behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:20). All true religion teaches that you must seek within yourself.

  • From: Edmonton, Alberta
  • Registered: 2007-08-08

Re: Birth of Jesus - Sept. 11, 3 B.C.

andyw wrote:

It is only the corrupt establishments who teach the false religion of skydaddy being far far away, it actually says in the Bible "behold, the kingdom of God is within you" (Luke 17:20). All true religion teaches that you must seek within yourself.

Does the kingdom of God existing within you negate the possibilty of an eternal external God?

66 Reply by Jezreel (edited by Jezreel 2007-09-11 18:28:14)

  • Registered: 2005-07-09

Re: Birth of Jesus - Sept. 11, 3 B.C.

kid mongo wrote:

Ever hear of the Crusades, the Inquisition, slavery, the selling of indulgences, the Dark ages, religious intolerances, and so on?  I don't know, but if you want to keep talking bullshit, go righht ahead. It fascinates me..

They were nothing to do with Christianity, people have used Christianity to get others to go along with their power trips. The biggest killers in history, Stalin and Mao were Atheists.

Now if there is a religion that accurately shows the "way" to the "profound" that is separate from us, which proves that there is a "God" and a "Heaven" where we all go after we die, then I'd like you to show me which religion does that. Actually, most of them do. You just have to believe it.

Well obviously there isn't a "religion" that tells you that, the answer is in the Bible but maybe not exclusively, the Catholic Church banned ordinary people from reading the Bible for hundreds of years in Europe hence the term dark ages.

Divinity that exists in humanity simply isn't taught that way in Christianity, Judaism or Muslim traditions. And my point is that religions are just transferrence of information, money, and rituals.

No one can teach you, you have to find it yourself.


The Gnostics were early followers of "The Way" (Christ) who believed that followers of The One God should not merely revere Christ, but strive to emulate him, in every thought, word and deed. They sought to describe this emulation in philosophical terms, as a method of practice. As the early Roman church formulated its canons, the Gnostics were eventually considered willful heretics, opposed to turning their lives over to God as a matter of faith. To become a true believer, the early church leaders claimed, one had to forego understanding and analysis and be content to live life through divine revelation, adhering to God's Will moment by moment. The churchmen did this in order to sustain their control over the people. They wished to keep His True Teachings and overall plan from the public, so people would be deceived into thinking that they had to go to the churchmen to find God, rather than learning to look within and find the Divine within themselves as Christ's Message to the world had been.

Accusing the church hierarchy of tyranny, the Gnostics argued that their understandings and methods were intended to actually facilitate this act of "letting go to God's Will" that the church was requiring, rather than giving mere lip-service to the idea, as the churchmen were doing.

In the end the Gnostics lost, and were banished from all church functions and texts, their beliefs disappearing underground among the various secret sects and orders. Yet the dilemma was clear. As long as the church held out the vision of a transformative spiritual connection with the Divine, yet persecuted anyone who talked openly about the specifics of the experience - how one might actually attain such an awareness, what it felt like - then the "Kingdom Within" would remain merely an intellectualized concept within church doctrine, rather than reality within each person, and The Truth would be crushed anytime it surfaced. . .

  • From: Isle of Lucy
  • Registered: 2005-11-07

Re: Birth of Jesus - Sept. 11, 3 B.C.

They were nothing to do with Christianity, people have used Christianity to get others to go along with their power trips.

The Pope has nothing to do with Christianity?

There will be two Ages. The first: The Age of Power. The next: The Age of Equality.

kid mongo's Website

  • Registered: 2006-01-11

Re: Birth of Jesus - Sept. 11, 3 B.C.

The Pope has plenty to do with Christianity (or Catholicism specifically), but he has nothing to do with Christ.  If Christ's words were actually followed (see Matthew 6:5-6), no such power structure would need exist.

  • From: Isle of Lucy
  • Registered: 2005-11-07

Re: Birth of Jesus - Sept. 11, 3 B.C.

So you agree that organized religion is a power structure. Thank you.

The Church has everything to do with the Christ, since this is the figure used by this "power structure" under whose authority the words of Christ were published and dissemenated. The very "power structure" you deny is the source of this "Christ." Whose being intellectually honest, now?

There will be two Ages. The first: The Age of Power. The next: The Age of Equality.

kid mongo's Website

  • Registered: 2006-01-11

Re: Birth of Jesus - Sept. 11, 3 B.C.

I think you misconstrue the source of my faith.  I do not base my beliefs around the words in a book, nor in a power structure responsible for disseminating that book.  I base my beliefs around my perception of the Divine (as discussed at length in a previous post).  So to say "the very power structure you deny is the source of this Christ" has no bearing to me, as I don't need Christ's words to validate my beliefs.  The map is not the territory.

I mentioned Matthew 6:5-6 as a simple demonstration that even within the ascribed words that Christianity as a belief system is supposed to hold itself to, the existance of its power structure is unjustified.  The council of Nicea may have edited out the Gospels that didn't conform to the establishment, but they couldn't catch everything.

Belonging to an organized religion has nothing to do with one's connection with God.  The former has a power structure, the latter does not.  In that regard I give no support whatsoever to the former, but the latter is the most cherished part of my life.  Please do not confuse one with the other.

  • Registered: 2005-07-09

Re: Birth of Jesus - Sept. 11, 3 B.C.

kid mongo wrote:

The Pope has nothing to do with Christianity?

No quite the opposite, the Pope (Papa in Latin) or the Holy father.

Matthew 23:8-12 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called ‘teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[a] 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

There are plenty more I could quote, but anyone who puts themselves between God and people is not a Christian and could not possibly be so, they are by definition an Anti Christ.

  • From: Isle of Lucy
  • Registered: 2005-11-07

Re: Birth of Jesus - Sept. 11, 3 B.C.

Belonging to an organized religion has nothing to do with one's connection with God.  The former has a power structure, the latter does not.  In that regard I give no support whatsoever to the former, but the latter is the most cherished part of my life.  Please do not confuse one with the other.

I hadn't. Both "God" and "The Church" are creations of man. Can you prove "God" or the "divine" exists? I say you can't. These are words. If you tell me "the Kingdom of God is inside you," or that someone has a "connection"  "with" "God", you are doing nothing but relaying concepts to me.

What does it mean that "God" lives inside me or that "divinity" anywhere can be perceived? Have you seen such divinity? Can you point to someone and say, "Oh, yes! This is a divine person? "What are the attributes of a person who is divine, or contains divinityy? What would you be without this crutch of a "God" out there or inside you? What would the world be without this "God?" This is an easy question. You're living in it.

Are you 100% sure that these Bible quotes you show are absolutely the words of Jesus? Serious students of Early Christianity (and don't forget the Modernists or the Jesus Seminar), have no idea what Jesus actually said or done. The NT is a thouroughly corrupted text, so outside of the Gospels, there ain't much to hang your hat on in justifying your faith in these words you covet. I'm not saying that there wasn't a being named Jesus. I believe there was a person or persons who somehow was the impetus of these stories. Do I believe he was the Pre-Existent Christ of Paul, or the result of a Virgin Birth? Not any more than I believe the Adam and Eve story.

And we haven't even talked about the other religions in the world. Brave attempts to explain creation in different ways. Has any Religion bought "God" face-to-face with "His" Creation?" Nope. Just words, rituals, images and belief. That works for you, so be it. I leave you with the words of St. John Lennon:

"Imagine no religion..."

There will be two Ages. The first: The Age of Power. The next: The Age of Equality.

kid mongo's Website

  • Registered: 2006-01-11

Re: Birth of Jesus - Sept. 11, 3 B.C.

kid mongo wrote:

Can you prove "God" or the "divine" exists?

Haven't we gone over this already, over and over again?  NO.  Nobody else can prove to you that God exists.  I thought we settled that already, so please stop asking for someone to do so.

Just know that that lack of ability to prove to you that God exists does not itself imply that God does not exist, for the simple reason that the connection between a human and God is personal, as in subjective, as in non-transferrable.  I cannot act as an intermediary for you, nor can the Pope, nor can Jesus, nor can the Bible, nor can anything or anyone else.  Other persons and their words are simply guides, to use or ignore in a manner appropriate to your own journey.  They are points on the map, but as said above, the map is not the territory.  And nobody else can explain the territory to you.

So can we please get past this tired discussion where you repeatedly insult people for their beliefs and ask them to prove the existence of God to you?  Because that will never happen.

  • From: Isle of Lucy
  • Registered: 2005-11-07

Re: Birth of Jesus - Sept. 11, 3 B.C.

Settle down. I haven't insulted you or anybody else. Believe me, you'd know it if I did. Besides, this is not a fight. Just an exchange in ideas. Or so I thought.

I'm not asking for an intermediary. I'm not asking you to describe my connection to "God." I'm asking you to describe your "personal connection" to "God" that you claim exists. If your religious experience is so alien that you can't describe your own personal connection with the divine, then we should end this discussion.

There will be two Ages. The first: The Age of Power. The next: The Age of Equality.

kid mongo's Website

  • Registered: 2006-01-11

Re: Birth of Jesus - Sept. 11, 3 B.C.

I'm asking you to describe your "personal connection" to "God" that you claim exists.

I thought I already did that, in my post at the top of this page.  It's a sense.  Beyond that no description is possible; it'd be like trying to describe the experience of the sense of smell.

Senses are like axes of linearly independent, orthogonal dimensions.  You can't describe one in terms of another, so in whatever multidimensional space you happen to be working with, the existence of those dimensions has to be treated as axiomatic; something you start with.  The same goes for this.  In my world, the existence of God is an axiom, as I sense it just as well as I sense light or sound.  And just as talking about photons or pressure waves will do nothing to explain the internal experience of light or sound, nothing I can say to you will explain this sense either.

That's all the explanation that is possible.