Re: The New Kingdom

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road is easy that leads to destruction, and there are many who take it.  For the gate is narrow and the road is hard that leads to life, and there are few who find it."
~~Jesus of Nazereth


"Few people understand me,
This is why I am disinguished."
~~ Lao Tzu

Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter


1+1=1

32 (edited by nexus 2007-04-15 08:36:03)

Re: The New Kingdom

Elemeno, your reply to me refutes a premise which i did not make.  I gave the examples of Jesus and Guatama Buddha as people to emulate... enlightened people who didn't physically leave the earth plane until they had discovered and fulfilled their mission/divine plan. They did not seek to simply escape the world. They refused to leave the world the way they found it.   Although they worked to reform souls and systems, as did Gandhi, they weren't therefore "little reformers" ignorantly attached to the world.   Fearless and non-attached to the fruit of action, they took on the powers of this world each in their own way. They paid their debts to life performed world service and ascended to the spiritual plane.  Each person will have a unique plan to fulfill in the final embodiment on earth.  This is indeed a unique time on planet earth.   A time when the "Householder" [as Yogananda's guru described it]  can attain to Christ conciousness.   Jesus , Guatama , and millions more of the "Heavenly Host" remain with earth and it's people to guide us into a personal and planetary victory over our own lower nature and over the enslaving forces of this world.  Christ conciousness is not a passive state. It is not attained by a passive indifference to the world.   Now in spirit and still available to us, the Adepts are still performing world service.  Why?  Are they still attached to persons and things in this world.? Greater love hath no-one but that they lay down their life for their friends.     First, the 'life' of the ego is ' laid down' , then the Christ conciousness is given [laid down as a gift]  in world service to help accomplish the Divine plan for the earth.

33 (edited by Elemeno 2007-04-16 20:58:33)

Re: The New Kingdom

Hi Nexus, and all;

nexus wrote:

Elemeno, your reply to me refutes a premise which i did not make.

Perhaps so, nothing personal.

At least, it was not a premise which was overtly stated in your words; thus so i was addressing a common misconception about 'being spiritual' which results in well-meaning yet still ignorant activity. It seemed to me that this was implied in your words.


nexus wrote:

I gave the examples of Jesus and Guatama Buddha as people to emulate... enlightened people who didn't physically leave the earth plane until they had discovered and fulfilled their mission/divine plan. They did not seek to simply escape the world. They refused to leave the world the way they found it.
Although they worked to reform souls and systems, as did Gandhi, they weren't therefore "little reformers" ignorantly attached to the world.   Fearless and non-attached to the fruit of action, they took on the powers of this world each in their own way. They paid their debts to life performed world service and ascended to the spiritual plane.  Each person will have a unique plan to fulfill in the final embodiment on earth.  This is indeed a unique time on planet earth.   A time when the "Householder" [as Yogananda's guru described it]  can attain to Christ conciousness.   Jesus , Guatama , and millions more of the "Heavenly Host" remain with earth and it's people to guide us into a personal and planetary victory over our own lower nature and over the enslaving forces of this world.  Christ conciousness is not a passive state. It is not attained by a passive indifference to the world.   Now in spirit and still available to us, the Adepts are still performing world service.  Why?  Are they still attached to persons and things in this world.? Greater love hath no-one but that they lay down their life for their friends.     First, the 'life' of the ego is ' laid down' , then the Christ conciousness is given [laid down as a gift]  in world service to help accomplish the Divine plan for the earth.

Certainly so.

The important point however, is that well intentioned, though naive activity, despite the fact that it can indeed be meritous; it can gain mertiful karma through noble intentions and activity; can in fact be obstructive to the manifestation of the Divine Plan, and thus also the liberation of the soul and can thus be obstructive for all beings.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

Service, true spiritual Service, arises through the selfless sacrifice of ones being. Ones very self, ones soul, is given up to the Divine, The Fundamental Goodness, the Eternal Fount of Wisdom.

You mention this sacrifice, Nexus.

Right Knowledge, and contact with Living Wisdom are important precedents to True Spiritual Service, which then naturally arises, in harmony with the Greater Goodness.

"Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore, get wisdom: and with all thy getting, get understanding" -proverbs

In this world, at this time, there are countless philanthropic movements and groups, all working towards their own vision of goodness.

They do good things, they feed the poor, they provide for the destitute, they work for human rights; these are all beneficial things, they are noble things.

Yet for all the apparent benefit, they yet act out of ignorance; few are those who are addressing the fundamental cause.

"For the thousands hacking at the branches of evil, few are hacking at the roots" -Thoreau (paraphrased)

The Sages and Adepts, who, out of the great sun of the Love which they have come to know; the Love which is like a 1000 galaxies compared to the meager star of our own beings Serve. They serve not just a person here, or there, nor only a certain race; The boundless love from which they live and move serves in fact the whole of the Cosmos.

They are granted wisdom, and vision of what needs to be done before them; they are like the fingers and toes, they move how the Body of Christ would have them move.

Human beings benefit outwardly from the demonstration of Virtue. Yet Virtue, beloved in the eyes of God, is but a foundation. Ideas about virtue and what is right are not enough. In order to actualize virtue for the benefit of all beings we need the direction and guidance of wisdom.

Find an Adept; would such a one not point to the fountain of Wisdom within you, so that you in turn can move and act in accordance with the greater harmony, for the sake of all beings?

They can do no less, for they act always at the behest of Wisdom-Love.

What if you give a dollar to the poor man on the corner, out of the compassion of your heart, with love in your eyes, and this person in turn buys alcohol and further degrades themselves and others? Is this the action of wisdom, however well intentioned?

This is not to say we should not give and help as we are able, but far better is it to give and help how Living Wisdom, which knows always what is best, and which would reveal this to our inner vision, would have us help and give.

So you see that while sincerity is important in finding the path, right-knowledge and right-understanding grant us access to Living Wisdom, welling up like a spring in our hearts, to direct us to right activity.

It is very true that we cannot run away from ourselves, we cannot run from our problems. We must face things as they are. Until we are acting out of Wisdom, and not merely our own ideas of what is good and right, we will yet be bound to the world and our problems.

Someone once said: "The Dharma is simple: Do what you can to help; and failing that, do your best not to hinder"

What this means to us tends to change as we grow closer to the Christine Gate. Philosophically it means simply "act from love and wisdom always". Practically speaking, Insight, Inner Wisdom-Vision demonstrates the way to address the deeper causes, and not simply the outward symptoms.

"Christ Consciousness" is no small thing. To exist in Christ Consciousness means that the I-Being, the Ego, the separate self-delusion is dead. It has been crucified in the Fire of Truth and Wisdom.

To project too much upon this lofty state, which most of us mortals can only speculate about, leads to delusion. We think "well, Christ consciousness would act this way", but really we are projecting from out of our ignorance, even with the best of intentions.

So Service means: "To Live in Spirit".

For most of us, this means: "Seek God and Spirit"

Do you understand why i feel it important to make this distinction?

What is it that makes one "fearless and non-attached to the fruits of action"?

And when illumined beings "take on the powers of the world each in their own way", do they do so out of their own beliefs and opinions? Or did they do so by moving in accordance with actual living spirit-wisdom, which lent true spiritual Power to their activity, thus giving it a redeeming and profoundly transformative quality?

So, before inciting people to action which they may believe to be good and noble, perhaps better to incite them towards Wisdom, wouldn't you agree?

Gautama Buddha:

"Let us try to face reality squarely, exactly as it is."

"Let go of mere opinions. "

"One should understand according to reality and true wisdom."

"A good way lessens suffering, a great way routs it out. "


Thus, i must agree, Nexus, that passive indifference does not lead to spiritual redemption or liberation. However, Divine Indifference, born out of wisdom, which reveals the reality behind apparencies, is a natural consequence of moving out of the shadows of misconception, into an impersonal attitude.

This is not the same as being cold-hearted, unfeeling, or "not caring" because "it doesn't matter to us".

Adepts and illumined sages do not serve the world as we see it and know it. They serve Divine Love, they serve the reality behind the appearances.

Ones own mission, according to God and being, is revealed best by seeking the inner fount. Then we act not according to what we think or believe, but according to what is known and revealed via authentic insight.

To follow Christ is to Seek Christ. To follow Wisdom is to Seek Wisdom.

Best wishes,
Elemeno

34 (edited by nexus 2007-04-25 23:22:42)

Re: The New Kingdom

Elemeno.   I understand your philosophical questions. The distinctions you make and the philosophical questions that arise from them are covered above by myself.   Perhaps there is a difference between our respective premises . But then again perhaps not....or,  one has an idea that one simply wishes to elaborate on regardless.  Maybe one or the other is seeing through a 'glass darkly'... perhaps both are.   Perhaps in my post above a point was assumed by myself as a given, which if now aired would expose a true difference between our basic premises.  I dont know.   So on a practical level do you suggest that the revelation of Christ conciousness to the soul is an all or nothing event?  The ignorant personal self meets Christ and is enlightened conciously from that point on?.. or do you acknowledge that it is a process that takes time[as we now experience it].

If you acknowledge a process, then Christ 'meets'[reveals Self to] the 'little self' while the self is relatively ignorant. There then begins an accelerated process of transformation.   Christ thereby refines the soul as the soul is able to attune with the Presence. Through that concious attunement  the soul is enabled,  in stages,  to 'see' more clearly the true nature of things.   It is now learning to discern the difference between light[ a real spiritual vibration] and darkness[ a lower vibration] in a clearer more refined way.   The soul  thereby begins to separate the real from the unreal within oneself.....to see through the illusions that bind it...  to surrender the negative energies locked in those illusions until all of one's being has been 'resurrected' from the 'dead' .  If you agree that in general this is the 'way' it happens then the soul is passing through the labrinth of the miscreation of it's own lower self and simultaneously, through  the miscreations in the world.  During this process of the soul aspiring to become whole in this 'way',   the Higher Self [Christ] will heal, guide, comfort, correct, direct, through our own thought and feeling and sometimes speaks directly.  All of this, if you accept it  Elemeno, raises the issue, considering the process described, of the soul being directed by the Christ self into certain actions, associations, etc while the soul is not yet wholly free of error.

  The soul, while in a state of  'becoming' is learning to be Christ in action.. but making mistakes.  Each of us has made personal and planetary karma through many relationships over a long time.  When the erring, incarnate soul meets Christ 'she' , if 'she' accepts Divine direction is not long for this world. The souls long journey from spirit through materiality is about to change.  Life is, for that soul, about to accelerate.  The inner Christ self is willing to bestow , incrementally, that greater Self upon the soul in order to transmute the karmic energies that have limited the souls self expression.  Through the "still small voice" the soul  practices attunement with the Presence and surrenders to Divine Will... step by step.  But what will the Divine... will for the soul??  What specific directions will Christ give the soul?  At first that will depend on many things.  It will depend some on the soul's 'past'. [and therefore 'present' because if the 'past'  remains untransmuted it will have an impact on 'present' and  the 'future']    What karmic debts are due to which lifestreams ? where?    What are the  past 'glories' and 'tragedies' of the soul ?  Past victories and defeats?   Who are the soul mates , where is the twin flame of the soul.  The Christ does not dismiss these things as irrelavent dualities.  They are vitally important in fulfilling the soul's karma and dharma.

The Christ is not conditioned by the dualistic experiences of the soul.   But It lives in the center of self and seeks to reign as the wise loving authority and to direct the life of the soul.  Given that the personal Christ self  knows all levels of  'It's own being [all levels of our own being] and all experiences thereof,  it knows perfectly well what we must do to "fulfill all things"           I hope you don't think that because i use language to describe vibrationally different elements of self that i must therefore 'believe' in separation.  I am describing the path whereby our souls, once believing in the lie of separation, rediscover the inner Christ ,and transmute the lower elements of self through that heartflame.    During that learning process of trial and error the inner Christ is directing our way.  Individually that way will necessitate different activities and associations for each person depending on the personal karma and Divine plan.

Edited to reform the text into paragraphs.

Re: The New Kingdom

nexus wrote:

Elemeno.   I understand your philosophical questions. The distinctions you make and the philosophical questions that arise from them are covered above by myself.   Perhaps there is a difference between our respective premises . But then again perhaps not....or,  one has an idea that one simply wishes to elaborate on.  Maybe one or the other is seeing through a 'glass darkly'... perhaps both are.   Perhaps in my post above a point was assumed by myself as a given, which if now aired would expose a true difference between our basic premises.  I dont know.   So on a practical level do you suggest that the revelation of Christ conciousness to the soul is an all or nothing event?  The ignorant personal self meets Christ and is enlightened conciously from that point on?.. or do you acknowledge that it is a process that takes time[as we now experience it].  If you acknowledge a process, then Christ 'meets'[reveals Self to] the 'little self' while the self is relatively ignorant. There then begins an accelerated process of transformation.   Christ thereby refines the soul as the soul is able to attune with the Presence. Through that concious attunement  the soul is enabled,  in stages,  to 'see' more clearly the true nature of things.   It is now learning to discern the difference between light[ a real spiritual vibration] and darkness[ a lower vibration] in a clearer more refined way.   The soul  thereby begins to separate the real from the unreal within oneself.....to see through the illusions that bind it...  to surrender the negative energies locked in those illusions until all of one's being has been 'resurrected' from the 'dead' .  If you agree that in general this is the 'way' it happens then the soul is passing through the labrinth of the miscreation of it's own lower self and simultaneously, through  the miscreations in the world.  During this process of the soul aspiring to become whole in this 'way',   the Higher Self [Christ] will heal, guide, comfort, correct, direct, through our own thought and feeling and sometimes speaks directly.  All of this, if you accept it  Elemeno, raises the issue, considering the process described, of the soul being directed by the Christ self into certain actions, associations, etc while the soul is not yet wholly free of error.  The soul, while in a state of  'becoming' is learning to be Christ in action.. but making mistakes.  Each of us has made personal and planetary karma through many relationships over a long time.  When the erring, incarnate soul meets Christ 'she' , if 'she' accepts Divine direction is not long for this world. The souls long journey from spirit through materiality is about to change.  Life is, for that soul, about to accelerate.  The inner Christ self is willing to bestow , incrementally, that greater Self upon the soul in order to transmute the karmic energies that have limited the souls self expression.  Through the "still small voice" the soul  practices attunement with the Presence and surrenders to Divine Will... step by step.  But what will the Divine... will for the soul??  What specific directions will Christ give the soul?  At first that will depend on many things.  It will depend some on the soul's 'past'. [and therefore 'present' because if the 'past'  remains untransmuted it will have an impact on the 'future']    What karmic debts are due to which lifestreams ? where?    What are the  past 'glories' and 'tragedies' of the soul ?  Past victories and defeats?   Who are the soul mates , where is the twin flame of the soul.  The Christ does not dismiss these things as irrelavent dualities.  They are vitally important in fulfilling the soul's karma and dharma. The Christ is not conditioned by the dualistic experiences of the soul.   But It lives in the center of self and seeks to reign as the wise loving authority and to direct the life of the soul.  Given that the personal Christ self  knows all levels of  'It's own being [all levels of our own being] and all experiences thereof,  it knows perfectly well what we must do to "fulfill all things"           I hope you don't think that because i use language to describe vibrationally different elements of self that i must therefore 'believe' in separation.  I am describing the path whereby our souls, once believing in the lie of separation, rediscover the inner Christ ,and transmute the lower elements of self through that heartflame.    During that learning process of trial and error the inner Christ is directing our way.  Individually that way will necessitate different activities and associations for each person depending on the personal karma and Divine plan.

Well that seems quite sensible.

But in light of what you have written above, wouldn't you say, then, that its wiser to incite people to seek the Living Christ, the Fountain of Living Wisdom within themselves, than to incite people towards unillumined activity?

Once contact with the inner christ has been established, and the soul-being is in the process of being transmuted, then activity can proceed from the living flow of the Christ Spirit.

Before the flame in the heart (and the head!) has been rekindled people are only able to act out of darkness or perhaps even a bit of grey.

First things first, wouldn't you say? Otherwise we risk exposing people to high philosophy which, instead of being useful and applicable to their situation, becomes food for the intellects of their ego; This then becomes parroted as 'spiritual wisdom', and becomes distorted to suit the needs and interpretations of ego's and agendas, hence contributing to the maelstrom of noise and ignorance we find in the world all around us; particularly among the so-called 'spiritual' who are nothing less than a repetition of the pharisees of old.

Hence, wisdom dictates that we act with discretion, and not out of desire for recognition, or acknowledgment.

Buddha said that wise means are the course of wise men.

This world is full of imitations. Before we can truly act in the correct Spirit, we must first be able to discern what is true from what is false. This means we need to have in some way contacted within ourselves what is True, and we must be seeking to live according to that.

'i wish to reduce my-self to zero' - ghandi

Regards,
Elemeno

Re: The New Kingdom

"You are the richness that wealth can never know"
~~carefulcarpenter   Poet, common man

Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter


1+1=1

Re: The New Kingdom

True... Are you ~~carefulcarpenter  titmouse?          Also Hi  Elemeno,  i was online last week typing a reply to your above post and after i typed it i somehow hit the wrong button and erased it.   This also happened on my next attempt on the 'conspiracy' pages. I hit control /something and 2hrs went up in smoke. [ i'm a one finger new typer]         when i finished it was ~ 2am in Australia so it was off to bed.   Now i've got 2 fingers crossed and one finger on the typing keys.   So just to boil it down, first thing is first.   So  i do agree that you elaborate on the crucial point of acting in  attunement with  the Presence. Keeping in harmony with the inner Presence,  that is key.  No ego ever 'went to heaven'.   The points that you make are made well.

Re: The New Kingdom

The words flow through me, yet I have no attachment to what they mean.  Like synchronicity, I follow, share, and  learn.  Glad it rings true for you.  smile   I like it too.

Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter


1+1=1