• From: Denver
  • Registered: 2005-08-02

Re: W(h)or(e)Ship

From:

http://www.unknowncountry.com/board/mes … 1170265487

Thomas
Senior Member

Here's the question that haunted me all during seminary and well-after: ‘What was considered so dangerous by orthodox Christianity, that they felt they needed to stamp out not only all the teachings of the Gnostics and the Mystery Schools–but even the historical memory of them whenever possible?’

John Lash knows the answer.

It was the Gnostic critique of the emerging, central message of orthodoxy, ‘salvationist theology‘–an insidious virus implanted into humans by beings (Archons) whose intention was to enslave and control us through our own ignorance of our own true dignity.

There is a reason theology students are told that the ‘vicarious atonement’ (satisfactio vicaria) is considered THE central teaching of orthodox Christianity: it is also the lynchpin for a whole salvationist/redemptionist mindset that sees suffering as having redemptive value.


To quote John Lash:

quote:

Humans may commit violence for many reasons, they may seek to oppress and dominate others for a variety of causes, but when domination by violent force, both physical and psychological, is infused with righteousness and underwritten by divine authority, violence takes on another dimension. It becomes inhuman and deviant. … What kind of world results if the power to dominate and control others, inflicting enormous suffering in the process, is sanctioned by a divine being who can at the same time redeem that suffering and release the perpetrators and their victims from that world's evils.

Such was the diabolic system Gnostics found themselves facing after 150 C.E.

– Not In His Image, p. 18.

Granny
Advanced Member

Two of the most important statements I have heard about recently on religion was William Henry's comment that all of our churches focus on hanging the bloody and suffering Jesus on the cross ... rather than the true message of resurrection ... and the other was by Whitley ... that religion tells us right from the start of our teachings that humans are bad, sinners, inadequate, fallen, etc, but that we can be redeemed ... through the church, of course.

Thomas
Senior Member

It never made any sense to me that a truly loving and righteous ‘God’ would (or even could) ever require the torture and death of anyone to assuage ‘his divine justice‘–let alone his own Son! Something was terribly wrong with that picture. Either there was something wrong with ‘his’ justice or there was something wrong with ‘his’ divinity.

And why is the deity–and nearly every prominent person who serves ‘him‘–always male? Boy that bugged me.

Thomas
Senior Member

What I find remarkable is the extent to which the virus of ‘salvationism,’ as John Lash discusses, has permeated not only our religions but the whole of western civilization, even beyond it.

The efforts to ‘evangelize’ the European continent, the Americas, and Africa with salvationist ideology were accompanied by brutal (sometimes even genocidal) force; this fact is rarely discussed in ‘polite company‘–but it is a matter of historical record.

It is still true today. That same ‘virus’ that had the European explorers, and later the Cavalry and the early American missionaries, ‘bringing 'salvation' to the Indians‘–and sometimes at gunpoint–has us now on a divine rampage throughout the Middle East, this time with a political twist: ‘exporting democracy.’

We need to quit ‘saving people‘–in many cases, they'd be a lot better off.

Granny
Advanced Member

I have never read the Bible through ... actually when I decided to read it ... about 15,16,17 somewhere in there ... I never made it past Genesis ... I had written angry notes in the margin and was really mad at God for being so mean ...

And later ... when I tried it again ... I found it totally objectionable for God to reject offerings of a plant variety from his worshipers, but instead expected them to slay innocent animals at the alter.

Also ... worshiping ... that word alone and thinking of humans bowing down at others feet ... that vision tears at my soul and saddens me to no end.

Is that God?

Why do I not believe in the handy little black book ... well, it is such sheer nonsense, that's why. It simply does not make sense.

Thomas
Senior Member

Like you, I don't need anyone TELLING me what is sacred and what is not, I think we can all figure that out for ourselves.

11   23   11
  • From: Denver
  • Registered: 2005-08-02

Re: W(h)or(e)Ship

From:

http://www.unknowncountry.com/board/mes … 1173063394

Thomas
Senior Member

Post Number: 7285

Posted on Sunday, March 04, 2007 - 8:02 pm: 

I'll set the book aside for a moment, Zendor, and speak directly from personal experience. The ‘Redeemer Complex’ is a cognitive virus—a belief—that renders the host powerless by turning its natural, human defenses against themselves.

In my own case, so thoroughly brainwashed (by ‘the Redeemer Complex‘) was I, that I believed suffering was redemptive in and of itself, and that my own humanity was totally depraved (see the ‘total depravity’ of man), rendering the defenses that my own humanity natural afforded, useless.

This is no mere philosophical discussion; this is real-world manipulation. Without ‘the Redeemer’ to intervene and ‘save’ the debilitated host from its own supposed depravity, the host is informed that, ‘Without Me, you can do nothing.’ As with all cognitive viruses, the effectiveness here rests upon how deeply one ‘believes.’

This is also very convenient to those who want to manipulate and control entire populations. Obviously, to any ‘somebody’ that wants to do that, this remains a powerful tool in ‘his’ arsenal, more insidious than many disabling drugs.

The people affected still possess the intelligence required to perform the labor necessary to the Church or the state, but lack the willingness themselves to rebel—and if they do rebel, then this cognitive virus turns them against themselves.

How? As a result of ‘the Redeemer Complex’ they already believe themselves to be totally disabled without the supporting ‘grace of God‘; therefore, in the absence of the religion from which they receive that grace—and have just rebelled—their lives outside of the religion are thereby functionally disabled.

This is ‘programming’ driven to the level of high art—‘religious art.‘ Manipulative, effective, and very, very sick.

‘Question what's real. Question who's real. Trust your own discernment.’

11   23   11
  • Registered: 2004-10-06

Re: W(h)or(e)Ship

In my experiences with Christians, I've encountered strange group layers around congregations.  There are a few prophets and prophetesses traveling around to different churches and people who call themselves "spiritual warriors".  I've even encountered and seemling befriended non-human types.

The prophets and prophetesses go around proclaiming things that are going to happen to people, literally.  If these thing actually happen, I do not know.

The spiritual warriors go around preaching that the only way to defeat demons is to "surrender their will to christ".  They will try to walk people through processes of giving their will up.  One group I know of, say that all physical ailments come from "evil spirits" that "run in families" that each have a name (like lust, hate, names of disorders and diseases) and inhabit various areas of a person's body, soul, mind, and spirit.

What disturbs me about these people, is that the leaders of these groups seem to know too much about me.

On one occasion I actually caught people who I thought were my friends in a transitional-transforming state.  From what I saw, they looked like tall black creatures, very cartoonish looking. I am a witness to the fact that some people who go to churches are literally not human.  I question whether or not these people are really my friends at all.  Currently, I've stopped all contact with them.

  • Lono
  • Lono
  • Walker of worlds
  • Offline
  • From: Oklahoma, USA
  • Registered: 2006-05-03

Re: W(h)or(e)Ship

Very creepy, 3.  I think stopping contact is the wisest choice you could make at this time.  Was there ever a time when they almost caught you up in their madness?  Since you have several who are friends, I'm sure they tried to lure you in.

35 Reply by 3,7,127... (edited by 3,7,127... 2007-03-05 11:26:06)

  • Registered: 2004-10-06

Re: W(h)or(e)Ship

It's strange is the way they tried, Lono.
Each group I stated doesn't relate to the others in the same way except for claiming they are Christians.

Everytime I've seen a prophet or prophetess, they have their own service, set aside by the pastor.  I've never talked to one individually.  I have received "prophecies" from them before during the service.

The spiritual warriors usually invited me to their classes or someone from the class took me along to one.  These are guys are "mad".

The non-humans I saw by accident at someone's home.  I just walked into a private room and caught them completely off guard.  I don't think they know I saw what I saw.
There actually is one other instance when I was sleeping over at someone's home and the door was opened.  Somebody walked by in the hall light and kind of shifted out of human form for a few seconds.  Same appearance, tall, black skin, and cartoonish.
I didn't sleep well that night.  I also decided never to sleep at their house again.

  • From: West Coast, BC, Canada
  • Registered: 2007-02-11

Re: W(h)or(e)Ship

:)Magical_Mongoose , Hello,
What a wonderful and beautiful dream!

To all Others, OH! YES! about churches!  I feel that was a the very biggest 'thing' I had to heal within my-self.

My first language is french-fries.  I'm a frog, your a frog, kiss-me, and I'll turn into A Prince, suddenly (Robert Charlebois, Quebecker Musician) (But I'm a Princess- go -figure)...;)

In the villages, the church is the in -the- smacking- middle of the village. and the cementary, and the skating rink close-by!

roll

Born - to -die, what is the Holly-point with That!

Anyhow, OUR LAdy of Peace was the name of kindergarden school I attended, and if you were late , (5 years old) you get
the strap!...We , my twin and I were late, and I started to cry 'cause I didn't want to get the strap.  I didn't , but the other girl who didn't cry, but was quite angry, got the strap. 

We went to French school after that!  And thank you, my Mom for doing that.  But they even gave strap there too!
==================================================================================
The Fundamental Question:

What kind of entity/s would want to be worshiped

Let alone demand it  (SiriArc )
===================================================================================

How to live-up to someone's elses expectations!!!!.....Pondering takes alot of energy.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

The cross, is not a symbol I can accept...I even have a hard time with the image that SiriArc posted.

===================================================================================

However, with time to spare and space to walk-on, I figure the Human Species ' True Purpose is
CARE-TAKERS, of Earth Mother who breaths Energy from Father-Sun) providing all of us, the 2-4-winged-water beings food-for thought!  We are here to Heal , we are Here to Help Earth Mother Heal by moving the elements of Energy.

I hope this doesn't sound too yukky!

Bless you all:)

MonAmie-Zylo's Website

  • Registered: 2004-10-06

Re: W(h)or(e)Ship

I use dial-up and someone had to make a phone call, so I didn't finish the last post.

I was raised on Christian's doctrine.  Before a series of event took place (which includes finding montalk.net) I beleived every single peice of bunk I was told by sundayschool teachers, pastors, and these others.  After I started to wake up, I challenged those beliefs and ended up in a hospital psych ward.  Before and during my period of "crazyness", a few of the people who I later saw to be not human were probably pretending to be my friends.  They liked to take me to every sort of church gathering.  They would also try to take me to groups and classes I didn't need:
Ones that dealt with drug and alchohol addictions, which I didn't have.
"Faith Through Finances", when I have no problems with money.

They liked to take me on their street walking ministries.  I would follow them around and watch them give out soda or lemonade along with bible tracks.

Anyways, I suppose the only real way they "lured" me in was with the Christian Doctrine and how it makes people look good and righteous.  Except for one instance, where someone tried a brain programming technique deliberatly.  That involved a book/catalog/index (I have no idea what the hell it was) which made no sense at all when I tried to read it and only had 6 or 8 pages.  I don't know the purpose of it's program, but I know it was because of the way it was presented to me.  I was completely zoned out looking at a book full of museum pictures.  Half way through looking through it, my "freind" handed me this strange thing and I kind of went into a trance.  I looked at for like 30 seconds and then my "freind" hastily took it out my hands and hid it somewhere.  What bothers me, is that I didn't think twice about it and almost forgot that this event actually happened to me.

Today, I'm a Deist.
The extent of my religion is that I beleive in a Creator(God).
Everything else "religious" is just speculation.

38 Reply by limukala (edited by limukala 2007-03-05 16:42:43)

  • From: O'ahu
  • Registered: 2006-05-26

Re: W(h)or(e)Ship

"It carried me through discussion about such important issues as to whether we should all be *gasp!* OFFENDED that Bill and Hillary Clinton dared to take the eucharist during a recent church visit when they're not even Catholic. "

I guess I'm in trouble too.  In boy scout camp we were forced to go to church one night, and when I found out the catholic service was half the length, I became an instant catholic.  It was all good until everyone started lining up to get the juice and crackers from the priest (or whatever you want to call it).  Luckily some fellow catholics were kind enough to fill me in on my expected behavior, so I didn't blow my cover.  I was a catholic every year since too.


*also I should add that I never had any particularly vampiric experiences at church, it just bored me silly.  Of course, I was always in Sunday school, which is a lot more tolerable than grown-up church.  I've been to quite a few churches too, and like most things the quality depended almost entirely on the quality of the pastor.  Some were amazing and brave (lecturing about the similarities between islam and xtianity just after 9/11, and advising tolerance and open-mindedness) and even had great things to say, but even in the best I was bored to tears most of the time, and never heard anything I haven't found better in some other forum.  I didn't mind church that much though, because we usually went out for cheap chinese food afterwards, and this was the only time my family ever ate out growing up, so it was overall pretty fun.  The older I got, the more onerous it became though, because sunday school became less and less about learning fun, mythical stories like noah or shadrak mishak and abendigo (sic).

seeker of truth

follow no path
all paths lead where

truth is here

E.E. Cummings

39 Reply by SamIAm (edited by SamIAm 2007-03-08 02:16:08)

  • SamIAm
  • Guest

Re: W(h)or(e)Ship

This thread just reminded me of my early years in Florida going to this baptist church a couple of times near my house.  They would always pick up me & the neighborhood kids in schoolbuses every sat & sun! What's weird is that they would only pick up the kids!  The adults/parents had to drive to the church!

On this one easter they had a "candy room" setup.  They gave me and other kids bags and took us to this room that was filled with all sorts of plastic eggs with candy hidden in places, and told us that we had to walk in the room that had no light...it was completely dark... and  get as much candy as we could find...then come out the other door on the other side when the bell rung.  So we all went in as a group, laughing and excited about finding these large plastic eggs with candy filled joy...  then as we went in..they shut the door...we were all bumping into one another and barely were able to find the treats to put in our bag.    The weird thing is when the bell rung and we were told tocome out of the room I noticed  2 kids were missing.  They didn't come out!    Not sure where they went.  How weird is that?

There was like 10 other groups of kids waiting to go in the "candy room" as well.
Talk about mind games.  That church was crazy!

40 Reply by Pamelajean (edited by Pamelajean 2007-03-08 10:59:46)

  • From: relocating to Noble Dreams
  • Registered: 2006-01-29

Re: W(h)or(e)Ship

Fortunately for me, I had a step father that made Satan look like the tooth fairy.:o So, when he sent me to "his church" to learn how wonderful "his god" was, I was way ahead of his game.  From what I learned in Sunday school, "his god" was selfish, insecure, eternally demanding, brutal, vindictive, conditional, threatening, punishing, murderous...hey, no wonder the stepster was the way he was, he had this perfect role model to follow "his" god!:o  And to think...I could have an eternity with him and his god if only I follow the directions written down in that good book. My years may have been slight, but I figured that if god was an infinite and enormous version of the steppy, how much worse could hell possibly be? Adios christianity.:) 

Whenever I start to fall into that "poor me", my mean step father ruined my life SOM, I tell myself
"hold on there girl, that ol' demon saved you". He didn't do it intentionally, but he was such good example of the wrong way to be, think and believe, he just couldn't prevent it.  Strange how it's the most devastating experiences in life that offer the most opportunity for expanding one's self.  Weird too, is that the more impersonal those experiences become, the more they have to offer.
With me, at least.

  • From: Denver
  • Registered: 2005-08-02

Re: W(h)or(e)Ship

ha...err umm... hal...errr ummmm...hal(low)ed are the (B)ori(NG)



[center]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/siriarc/ori-doci1.jpg[/center]



From:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ori_(Stargate)

...beings who use their advanced technology and spiritual knowledge of the universe to trick non-ascended humans into worshiping them as gods.

The Ori fabricated a religion called Origin, which they use to control non-ascended beings, attempting to destroy anyone who rejects it. A central theme in the show is that power does not make someone a god nor entitle them to be worshipped; rather, the way they use great power is the measure of how they should be revered.

According to a de-ascended Ancient, Orlin, ascended beings can be empowered by massive numbers of humans worshipping them. The Ori have fabricated an entire religion based on the false promise of ascension to drain power from their followers.

Because their propaganda states that all humanity is their creation, the Ori decided to spread their doctrine to the unbelievers.

The religion which the Ori wish to impose on all sentient beings is called Origin, or the Path of Origin, and it is their way to assert dominance by promising to guide humanity towards enlightenment (i.e. Ascension). Its central promises are supposedly false, and is nothing more than a way to garner worshippers, which in turn increases the power of the Ori. To grant Ascension to all their followers would mean sharing their power, an idea the Ori find less than appealing. Followers of the faith receive nothing whatsoever from the Ori.

The Ori keep human followers at a low level of development, on par with the Medieval period of English history. They use their powers to maintain a level of fear among the population, who worship the Ori as gods. Among the populations of natives in the Ori home galaxy are groups of heretics who believe they are being suppressed, and seek to discover forbidden historical knowledge to show others that the Ori are, though powerful, not gods.

[center]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/siriarc/MWSnap165.jpg[/center]



[center][size=18]HOWEVER:

Many Came INTO [s]thisnestofDiStOrTiOn[/s]

PRE-PA(I)RED

The INNER LIGHT IS(IS) Just Like:[/size][/center]



[center]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/siriarc/No20Bugs.jpg[/center]



[center][size=18]FIRE

THE

CODES

MAGICIAN[/size][/center]

11   23   11
  • From: Denver
  • Registered: 2005-08-02

Re: W(h)or(e)Ship

[center]http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/siriarc/MWSnap167.jpg[/center]

11   23   11

43 Reply by Khalil (edited by Khalil 2007-10-08 08:16:58)

  • From: Still Looking 0-0
  • Registered: 2007-09-14

Re: W(h)or(e)Ship

I couldn't more agree, just to be different.



http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:Yzy1Oy29WimgkM:http://www.ultimatejudgmenthttp://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ozTM2fU04vt5IM:http://www.cts-http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:eO_9ClHyl0dCUM:http://www.waynebesen.com




http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/92/77/23357792.jpg

It's behind you! Agh ,nevermind.

  • From: Northwest
  • Registered: 2007-02-12

Re: W(h)or(e)Ship

well i'll chime in here. 
i have quite a personal history with the church...  that being the Southern Baptist and Non-denominational types.

when i was only 2 years old, my mother was pushing me on a swingset in our backyard...  never had been to church and i said, "I am coming, Jesus. Jesus, I am coming."  kinda creeped my mother out, but she put it on the back burner.  2 weeks later i fell into my uncle's pool and almost died... stayed under for a couple minutes at the bottom before anyone noticed and my uncle saved me.  after hearing what i had originally said 2 weeks before, my mother decided she should take me and my brother (2 years younger) to church. 

time went on and the church faded from our lives.  then when i was about 13 or 14, i asked my mom why we didnt go to church anymore.  i told her i wanted to go... so, she started taking us.  how many separate times i was saved, i cant recall.. let's just say i was 'sucked in' to all that shit.  for about 4 or 5 years after that, i was on my way to becoming a missionary.  i judged so many people.  preached the 'truth' all through highschool.  had all kinds of christian friends and was a member of a cult (youth group)...

before long, the southern baptist, red-faced approach wasnt cutting it.  so me and my friends moved to a 'non-denominational' church.  complete with speaking in tongues and passing out in front of everyone getting 'healed'...  this went on for a while, even separating me from my brother...  he chose the path of alcohol and sex and popularity... i chose the bible beating path and we just didnt sync up...

i started smoking when i started working yikes (big surprise)... and well, i had time to think...  one time i asked myself, "if God loves me even more than my own mother (which is what we were taught), then why would He send me to hell no matter what i did?"  from this point onward, i went into a very scary and lonely place... let's call this place Logic.   i lost all of my christian friends except for one and eventually denounced my religion and salvation.  thinking too much ;]

god i could write a book about my experiences... 

in short, now i have come full circle and no longer rebell against christianity or any other religion... i respect Jesus, but dont worship him.  and dont respect him anymore than other great humans.  i think that there are even greater beings out there.  me and my brother are very close even in the way we view the world.  my mother and aunt are now christian and im not anymore... funny how that flip occured. 

in retrospect, i would never take back what i chose during those confused years.  im glad i learned what i learned from DIRECT experience.  im not always glad to be reaping what i sowed back then, but hey i can deal with it and learn some more.



manipulation?  certainly churches (most) are rampant with it!  but in the end, the churches only supply an outlet for the people to fulfill their needs.  if no one 'needed' someone to tell them what was right and wrond, then the church wouldnt exist as it does. 

i dont know if i can handle it without pissing off a lot of people, but maybe one day i'll waltz back in to one of those places back home just to see with clearer eyes what is going on in there.

peace in
~R~

Pshhh to the Petty Tyrants cool

Tao Jones's Website

  • Registered: 2007-06-27

Re: W(h)or(e)Ship

Me? My Church experiences were harmless if somewhat boring as a child. The Church had a pleasant and calm atmosphere, the congregation were a fairly pleasant lot themselves and the priests we've had in our time were okay guys.

I don't really go to Church anymore because it just doesn't have anything to offer me, not because of evil soul-sucking preds. Today I only just found out about the presence of evil soul-sucking preds hanging above my Church... interesting.