What point are you at? (Page 3 of 7)

thanks, murphy, maybe soon will find the label "Guest" beneath my name.

It ´s sad because i registered only two days ago.

Good luck 

This is a good point because for two people to ever reach a common conclusion, both must be willing to change their views in accordance with whatever view is more solid and foolproof than theirs. But often, this isn't so much a matter of debating a point, but gaining the common experiences and knowledge to see eye to eye. Without the choice to give and accept information in a debate, this equalization cannot happen and so no agreement will ever be reached. In that case, trying to prove your point to the other is like going in circles around a closed building looking for a way in.

I think as long as you're presenting something that benefits others besides those debating (meaning, you don't backtrack or repeat yourself redundantly, and you say more than just personal bickering, defending, ego stroking, attacking, being illogical) then it's no different from writing a regular informative post. That's moving forward, not going in circles. But I guess consideration of others' patience is a factor - there is no point in posting when all have lost interest.

There must be a balance point between never speaking your case and beating it until it's dead. That point is where one leaves off with grace.

If you mean we are in the same predicament regarding the idea of 4D STS hyperdimensional manipulation, then it depends on the individual and their understanding of this phenomenon. Information is information - what people do with it is their choice and has no bearing on the facts of the matter.

If they falsely assume that there is no hope and that these forces are omnipotent and ever present, then of course they will see every downturn in life as caused by these forces and will feel too hopeless to ever strive forward. That would be identical to what happened in the past with the Church propagating hysteria and fear. Today you find this mindset common among those wallowing in doom concerning world affairs and the many enemies of humanity. They suffer from ignorance of the positive side that would balance their viewpoint and give them hope by showing the way toward self-empowerment and progress.

So if you examine what information is available regarding the nature and tactics of 4D STS and their earthly hierarchy, you'll see that the situation is far from hopeless. Through knowledge which empowers freewill, personal and spiritual evolution, and resistance against the control system, there is much hope. I don't see how having a balanced understanding of hyperdimensional manipulation can lead to disempowerment - it seems to me that it would result in the opposite.

And this is precisely why the situation holds hope. With a correlation between the outer world and our inner world, we can positively affect the outer world by improvements upon our inner world. I mean this in conjunction with external action.

Often times people try to 'change the world' through external action without also changing themselves, which only leads to inquisitions and wars because the external problem amplifies to reflect the increasing distortions of the internal until a point of catastrophe is reached.

As you know, any external threats we face are mere catalysts for our individual and collective evolution - if we choose to use them as such. The external "evil" predator is an inverse reflection of our inner "evil" prey. Properly used, awareness of how we are manipulated and fed upon (ultimately by our own consent) shows us what choices not to make, what lessons to learn, and what weaknesses to address.

Easier said than applied, but that's the fun of applying what you know - having the discernment to do it right. The Law of Allowance is allowing others to follow their chosen path of learning without interference. It's about refraining from infringing upon anothers' freewill.

But this can get tricky. You mention this in regards to tolerating anothers' viewpoint - though I say shouldn't the other tolerate one's objections? Also, what about tolerating predatory behavior, respecting the choice of a predator to feed upon you? Some who believe in karma treat all experiences as fated and deserved, and thus fail to make active choices in life to learn the same lessons pre-emptively. This is like the Christian idea of "turning the other cheek" and "giving until it hurts" - prey justifying being prey. 

This is an important topic, so I ask you and anyone reading, how does one ideally apply the Law of Allowance?

This would require a realm of cooperation (STO), kind of hard to acheive in a realm steeped in duality (STS), though I'm not saying this without a great deal of hope.  To live in a realm of cooperation is one of the most sacred visions I hold for the future. 

And more often than not when cooperation fizzles out, or was never there to begin with, we are reduced to--

and from my experience there is very little of STO cooperation in the practice of tolerance.  Tolerance is about enduring something, usually the endurance of something unpleasant like pain, ignorance, or predatory behavior.

I used to think practicing tolerance was a benevolent act and something to strive for, but I have found it just adds to the "feeding frenzy" and more often than not nothing of value is produced, and all the while frustration abounds.  And, tolerance is usually not a mutual effort... where one is practicing tolerance there is usually another one perpetuating grief.

I have a dear friend, a "love and light will heal all" friend.  She thinks I'm a "hard woman" for not embracing Tolerance for what she says I don't understand (FCOL! ). 

An example is, and my friend had seen this in action--if a Jehovah's Witness comes knocking at my door I say to them, simply, without malice, "I don't have to talk to you, and please do not return."  Trust me, there is not one thing I don't understand about the "power of the Tower," especially that it's not for me.

My friend maintains this is not practicing "love and light" to my greatest ability, whereas I say it is because I am conserving my energy as well as the others' energy.  No waste.  And from where I sit, not perpetuating energetic waste is indeed practicing "love and light" to my greatest ability.
 
It's fairly well assured that I'm not going to sway a Jehovah's Witness to my ideal realm of spiritual cooperation (if I even wanted to, which I don't), and no doubt, vice versa.  It would be a waste of personal energy to even approach a discussion that has no hope of a fruitful ending.  I'd much rather use those moments for empowering my drive to "bring to life" a realm of consciouness based on cooperation.

Hmmm... I'm thinking the Law of Allowance is a real and vital substance among individual group FRE's, no matter what is their orientation, yet given a cluster of FRE's, like we have here on the Earth plane, especially those vastly disoriented from one another,  the Law of Allowance becomes a difficulty... but maybe this is just more 3D duality thought processing rather than relevant insight, eh? 

Then again, maybe it's something that only needs to be recognized and accepted, and from there we can move forward and

I suppose I danced around the question, but that's the gig with "ideals," we more readily know what they're not.

--V

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
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Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we might as well dance.
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If you spin around on your chair really fast, things around here will make a lot more sense.

Hi Rodolfo,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I agree with you that there are multiple possibilities for the various symptoms people attribute to otherworldly beings. However, the more data you take into account, the more certain possibilities are made improbable or ruled out completely.

Also, these multiple possibilities are not mutually exclusive - that someone can hear voices because he's schizophrenic and has brain abnormalities doesn't exclude that possiblity that another hears voices because he's been implanted as part of some government mind control project.  So there is no single counter-example that can rule out one or the other if they are parallel possibilities with simultaneous validity rather than contradictory.

If you limit yourself to the social, psychological, and political reality, then naturally you exclude all the evidence that only a predatory alien factor can account for.  It's like saying that the Special Theory of Relativity is unnecessary to explain the motion of cars and airplanes - definitely, but that would exclude the relativistic effects that only come with high speed phenomena not commonly observed. This requires expanding your observations beyond the old territory.

By this I mean accounting for synchronicities beyond probability, eyewitness UFO sightings, abduction evidence including removed implants, scoop marks, hairline scars, etc..., memories recalled without hypnosis, etc... Not to mention ancient evidence of technology beyond the capability of man, universal attributes in religions and myths the world over concerning nonhuman beings seeding societies, and so on. The list is large.

Also, I noticed that when it comes to explaining away certain categories of phenomena, it's tempting to slice it up into individual components that are each then refuted, and one then claims that the whole is satisfactorily refuted as well. But this ignores the law of probability whereby individual probabilities multiply rather than sum to give the total probability.

Like with abductions - you can explain away the scoop mark as a spider bite, the abduction memory as a bad dream, the children mentioning what they saw as mere fantasy, and the UFO sightings in the area as swamp gas reflecting off of venus. But that all these events happened together on the same night cannot be refuted so easily because the individual probabilities of each item being wrong are multiplied together to give an overall TINY probability that no abduction happened. In other words, the total probability is not equal to the sum of the individual probabilities (which is reductionism falsely applied) but rather their product.

Example:

Probability that scoop mark is not due to abduction:  .1
Probability that ...  etc..                                       :  .1
Probability that ...  etc..                                       :  .2
Probability that ...  etc..                                       :  .4

Sum (false method)       = .8 that abduction did not happen.
Product (correct method) = .0008 that abduction did not happen.

This is why skeptical rationalizations can often become more absurd than the phenomena they seek to disprove.

I think all possibilities should be taken into account, and then all data should be examined to reduce this set of possibilities to the one that explains all the data in the best, most consistent and logical manner.

In my case, personal experience and logic following from my acceptance of certain categories of evidence convince me that hyperdimensional forces do exist, and that by freewill they can choose to be helpful or manipulative. I see that their manipulations are reflective of our weaknesses only in the sense that they are opportunistic. That a robber enters a house through an open door is reflective of the owner's forgetfulness to keep his door locked - but the robber isn't necessarily a phantom of the owner's mind.  There are cases where enemies are entirely psychological, but this doesn't exclude the possibility that sometimes they are independent.

In my view, healthy skepticism is the kind that favors neither gullibility nor conditional ignorance of evidence. And for the more outrageous evidence to be accepted, personal experience is often required, which unfortunately is something that cannot be exchanged or gained in a debate or discussion.

Hi, Tom, I agree with you. It ´s perfectly possible there exists a government mind control project.

This is the point, here I would like to bring attention to a very important issue that maybe you, in the USA, are not aware because you have no external frame of reference.

The fact is that in USA and Europe, mainly in England (I don ´t know another european countries) you citizens are being heavily targeted and bombed with massive information discharge from your media (TV, movies, I guess also the radio and books) on this topics, specially the alien paradigm in many flavours: the demonic (Orion reptiles and Grey partners, the lightsider  (waves of love for everyone), the conspiracy (with multiples branches and with several players accusing each other), the armageddon and cataclysmic or nuclear war end of the world,  the ascension due to an increase in the soul ´s frequency vibration, etc.

I live in South America and I must tell you that, besides your Hollywood moves, Fox movies and series and occasionally a Discovery Channel UFO report, here we do not see anything of this stuff. Moreover, everything I have read of this stuff I found in web sites from your country or England.

What I am trying to tell you is that the answers may be found in culture; for some reasons all this elements are being implanted in your culture, but is far from being a worldwide phenomena. Sure your political elite is deeply involved and I would not doubt the goal is simple: control and domination. Here in South America they have another strategy, poverty and starvation, but the elite is behind all this politics, an interrelated power elite of worldwide dimensions.

Again I want to point that maybe the alien stuff has no underlying reality, it is  used by the elite because of some advantages I don ´t know exactly, but I guess may be related to your highly technological civilization. No doubt  the domination plan is worldwide and the tactics are diverse according with the plans the elite has made.

Astonishing, where I live I can hardly find one known single subjetc reporting an experience akin with those you report as common, whether it be entities possesion or sight, alien abductions, implants, etc. Honestly not even one of my friends, family or acquaintances has ever had an experience like this.

All this support my theory: massive mind control via suggestion and hypnosis as a power elite strategy. They have done this before and enjoyed more than ten centuries of absolute power and they try to do it again. They change the envelope, but the contents is the same, evil creatures and entities that posses human mind and spirit. The main risk of such an estrategy is the possibilty of a mass psychosis due to human mind malleability and fragility.

You are right, but if you include spiritual reality you have competing approaches that could not be ruled out easily. Among them you have Plotinus and Nagarjüna with their mystical and phylosofical writings and speculations, you have the Perenne Phylosophy, you have the Non Dual Eastern phylosophies; none of them leads you to the predatory alien paradigm.

You are talking of joint probability and you are right, the joint probability is the product of the marginals. However, at this points i have some objections:

1)The value you give to the marginals, for example:
   
     Probability that scoop mark is not due to abduction: .1;  well, if you work with objective probabilities, I mean if you use classical statistical methods, due to the law of large numbers, you would have to collect a big sample of cases of people with scoop marks and estimate its origin, and sure you will find that the probability that it is not due to abduction is nearly 100 %. There are millions of wasps, bees, spiders, scorpions and many other insects. The same analysis could be done to the other events and you will find almost 100% probable that is not an abduction or UFO sighting. If you multiplie this probabilities you will find a very high probability of this not being due to alien. But, here you cant ´t multiply, because the events are related.

2) This is an example of conditional probabilities because the events are related each other and the probability of one of them isolated is affected by the ocurrence of other.
Here you have an strange effect, you can have a very high value of a conditional probability and very low values of the marginal and joint probabilities associated.

Example: A) scoop mark is DUE to abduction (marginal)
                B) the abduction memory correspond to a REAL ABDUCTION (marginal)

The conditional probability P(A/B), (scoop mark DUE to abduction given and abduction memory is a REAL ABDUCTION) is undoubtly very high, but P(A) and P(B), marginals and P(A.B),joint, can be very low.

P(A/B) = P(A.B)/P(B) if  P(A/B) = .99, you can have P(A.B) = .0099  and P(B) = .01.

As you can see this is far from proving the alien origin of this two related events. Statistically is very difficult to prove such an hypothesis, unless you decide to use a Bayesian aproach, which means assign your own subjective probabilities to an event; this is similar to a personal decision to believe in something.

It ´s not my intention to promote an endless debate, but I want to show that there really are another approaches and answers available to explain the same phenomena and a reasonable doubt. Ultimately, to embrace one view or another is a personal issue, but no one can claim absolute objectivity.

But, as I have discovered, what is real is what you decide is real, where you put your beliefs.

Good Day All!

I've started to make another post here a few different times, but found it hard to find the "right" words, mostly because I find life more fluid/abstract than statistical.  I kinda feel like I'm standing at the edge of a very, very steep slippery slope, but I'm going to try anyway, offering another way of looking at the issue.

rofo, I could go into detail as to how I have experienced these paranormal issues--

--and not only what I've experienced individually, because in fact, and I do mean factually, some of the paranormal activities I've experienced were experienced by others, at times many others, at the same time... how would shared experiences effect "probabilities," how does this affect your "piece/peace of mind?"  (this is not written sarcastically, none of what I write to you here is, okay?  My heart center is indeed, thoughtfully, wide open as I write.)

There is a saying--'God gives us no more than what we can handle.' 

Maybe you are unable to emotionally handle the truth of paranormalities, that they do affect humans physically, mentally, and spiritually, and they do so slipping through the cracks of objective reality and evidencing.  Maybe you were "steered" toward therapy to objectify whatever it was that marched you off to therapy in the first place, and this served your best interest... so you could better live your life, so you could look yourself in the mirror and say--

We all want this, but some of us want this without a comprimisation of our "knowings," our intelligent, discerning integrity. 

I am so bold to say this to you because I myself marched myself into therapy, I wanted to know if I was indeed deluded, and believe me this took some great big "kahunas" to do given the depth and breadth of paranormal activity I've dealt with (and not all of it is "bad," some has been very omnipotent)... I soooo did not want to be a "nut case."  

The objective tests, blood chemical tests, came back negative for delusionary tendencies.  The subjective testing, the sharing of my paranormal experiences within the counseling arena, had the same results, negative for delusionary tendencies.  My therapist actually "patted me on the back" for handling it all as well as I had and confidently sent me on my way. Confidently, and relieved , did I and do go on my way.

'God gives us no more than what we can handle.'

I do hope this post is received with the same loving spirit as from which it was written.

Peaciously,

V

"The mighty Oak was once just a nut that held its ground."

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
------
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we might as well dance.
------
If you spin around on your chair really fast, things around here will make a lot more sense.