• Registered: 2006-03-29

Topic: Principles vs Beliefs

This is something I've had with me for awhile now.  It was a natural construct born of the ever increasing amount of information I exposed myself to.

Belief and disbelief I feel are a trap of the mind.  Both of these are close-ended and cut the mind off.  If you believe something then anything against that belief will need to be discarded.  Same with disbelief.  Building on beliefs and disbeliefs is building on sand.  If the belief is ever proven wrong then the sands have shifted and the castle needs to be rebuilt.

The use of principles is building the castle on granite.  They are open-ended and can be used in all instances.  No matter how the sands shift, impeccable principles will stand.

Here are a few dictionary definitions of principles...
--  an accepted or professed rule of action or conduct
--  a fundamental, primary, or general law or truth from which others are derived
--  a personal or specific basis of conduct or management
--  guiding sense of the requirements and obligations of right conduct
--  an adopted rule or method for application in action

A few examples of principles that I do my best to adhere to are honesty with self, acceptance of others, seeking understanding, patience, and many others.  I also add the tools I use for learning and understanding under the title of principles.

Whenever I hear/read anything I first see if they are principles or beliefs.  If they are close-ended or cut anything off, they are beliefs.  Beliefs are not discarded however.  Everything is given it's space.  But the beliefs are never believed.  In other words they never become the foundation.  They are taken on as coats.  Something to be worn to see how they weather.  And even if they weather without any wear they can still only be prescribed a probability.  Without knowing the validity first hand the probability of any particular belief construct can never reach 100%.  Weight is added or taken away depending on multiple factors.  It's a fluid process.

Principles are used as the foundation of self.  They are sought and worked on tirelessly to attempt to achieve impeccability with each.  These principles will transcend the boundaries.  Even when skills beyond boundaries aren't achieved in time, principles will carry the individual through all attempts of deception.  Whereas beliefs will certainly entrap.

That's the best I can get it into words right now.  Comments?

2 Reply by titmouse_ (edited by titmouse_ 2007-01-05 13:35:39)

  • From: Shores of Lake Titikaka
  • Registered: 2006-05-25

Re: Principles vs Beliefs

z3n3rg wrote:

This is something I've had with me for awhile now.  It was a natural construct born of the ever increasing amount of information I exposed myself to.

Belief and disbelief I feel are a trap of the mind.  Both of these are close-ended and cut the mind off.  If you believe something then anything against that belief will need to be discarded.  Same with disbelief.  Building on beliefs and disbeliefs is building on sand.  If the belief is ever proven wrong then the sands have shifted and the castle needs to be rebuilt.

The use of principles is building the castle on granite.  They are open-ended and can be used in all instances.  No matter how the sands shift, impeccable principles will stand.

Here are a few dictionary definitions of principles...
--  an accepted or professed rule of action or conduct
--  a fundamental, primary, or general law or truth from which others are derived
--  a personal or specific basis of conduct or management
--  guiding sense of the requirements and obligations of right conduct
--  an adopted rule or method for application in action

A few examples of principles that I do my best to adhere to are honesty with self, acceptance of others, seeking understanding, patience, and many others.  I also add the tools I use for learning and understanding under the title of principles.

Whenever I hear/read anything I first see if they are principles or beliefs.  If they are close-ended or cut anything off, they are beliefs.  Beliefs are not discarded however.  Everything is given it's space.  But the beliefs are never believed.  In other words they never become the foundation.  They are taken on as coats.  Something to be worn to see how they weather.  And even if they weather without any wear they can still only be prescribed a probability.  Without knowing the validity first hand the probability of any particular belief construct can never reach 100%.  Weight is added or taken away depending on multiple factors.  It's a fluid process.

Principles are used as the foundation of self.  They are sought and worked on tirelessly to attempt to achieve impeccability with each.  These principles will transcend the boundaries.  Even when skills beyond boundaries aren't achieved in time, principles will carry the individual through all attempts of deception.  Whereas beliefs will certainly entrap.

That's the best I can get it into words right now.  Comments?

Very good! smile  I will remember this.


"What is the color of your HeArT?"
~~carefulcarpenter

Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter

1+1=1
  • Registered: 2005-02-08

Re: Principles vs Beliefs

z3n3rg wrote:

That's the best I can get it into words right now.  Comments?

Where you stand on something usually depends upon where you sit.

-3G

  • From: Vicenza, Italy
  • Registered: 2006-10-05

Re: Principles vs Beliefs

"It's a fluid process"

Is about the best I could've done.

Nice one.

Love is the law, love under will.
   
     Zejith Themis
      .:420-510:.
    FIAT IUSTITIA
    RUAT COELUM

Zejith_Themis's Website

  • Registered: 2006-03-29

Re: Principles vs Beliefs

titmouse_ wrote:

"What is the color of your HeArT?"
~~carefulcarpenter

Clear.  At least, that's what I'm working towards.  I want to feel without distortion, without coloration.  Objective feelation?

  • Registered: 2006-03-29

Re: Principles vs Beliefs

Thanks ZT.  Even the addition and integration of priciples is fluid in some respect.  As I once told a friend of mind, I'm here to sand the sculpture of self.

  • Registered: 2006-06-22

Re: Principles vs Beliefs

Nice post z3n3rg.

In addition only:

Listen to all for the possibility of finding a treasure.  If you do find a treasure, neither bury it nor hold on to it tightly.  Be willing to trade it for a better treasure or to freely give it to another who you find is also seeking treasures.

Love is Knowledge is Light

8 Reply by titmouse_ (edited by titmouse_ 2007-01-05 22:08:12)

  • From: Shores of Lake Titikaka
  • Registered: 2006-05-25

Re: Principles vs Beliefs

z3n3rg wrote:
titmouse_ wrote:

"What is the color of your HeArT?"
~~carefulcarpenter

Clear.  At least, that's what I'm working towards.  I want to feel without distortion, without coloration.  Objective feelation?

Black absorbs all wavelengths and reflects none; white reflects all. To be truly human, one is wise to see all colors and hues in an integral relationship with the pure heart; and to spread the light of unconditional love as a beacon for all others. Clearing the intellect(the conscious mind) is what I interpret you to be saying as your goal--is this so?

Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter

1+1=1
  • T-Ren
  • T-Ren
  • work in progress
  • Offline
  • From: Earth Lab
  • Registered: 2004-11-17

Re: Principles vs Beliefs

Wouldn't beliefs start out as principles until you meet that which challenges it. Then by not changing it, it becomes a meme?

I try to operate out of definition three and four for principles as best I can.

Peace,
Teddy

"It means the Matrix can't tell you who you are" - Trinity
  • Registered: 2006-03-29

Re: Principles vs Beliefs

titmouse_ wrote:

Black absorbs all wavelengths and reflects none; white reflects all. To be truly human, one is wise to see all colors and hues in an integral relationship with the pure heart; and to spread the light of unconditional love as a beacon for all others. Clearing the intellect(the conscious mind) is what I interpret you to be saying as your goal--is this so?

I was simply saying that I wanted to feel the "colors" as they are without distorting them myself, without putting on conditions of my own.  Just another way of saying a "pure heart" as you stated above.

  • Registered: 2006-03-29

Re: Principles vs Beliefs

T-Ren wrote:

Wouldn't beliefs start out as principles until you meet that which challenges it. Then by not changing it, it becomes a meme?

I'm looking at principles as something personal and unchallengable.  "Patience" would be a principle.  A "war in heaven" would be a belief.  I don't see patience, honesty with self, seeking understanding, acceptance of others, and such things as beliefs.  For me, they are open-ended and can be used with all subsets of subsequent information.

Many "memes" can masquerade as principles and actually be beliefs.  New age things like ignore the dark and it will go away.  The way I tell is to ask if it's close-ended, if it cuts something off.  Using that example, it does indeed cut off the "shadow self", so it can only be a belief.

You could say that "ignore the dark and it will go away" was once a principle for someone.  I'm basically saying that taking out the subjective part (that person not thinking it all the way through), it was always a belief and only perceived as a principle by the individual.

Of course, that's just how I currently see it and I may be wrong.

  • From: Shores of Lake Titikaka
  • Registered: 2006-05-25

Re: Principles vs Beliefs

z3n3rg wrote:
titmouse_ wrote:

Black absorbs all wavelengths and reflects none; white reflects all. To be truly human, one is wise to see all colors and hues in an integral relationship with the pure heart; and to spread the light of unconditional love as a beacon for all others. Clearing the intellect(the conscious mind) is what I interpret you to be saying as your goal--is this so?

I was simply saying that I wanted to feel the "colors" as they are without distorting them myself, without putting on conditions of my own.  Just another way of saying a "pure heart" as you stated above.

Yes, I agree, 'pure' is a better term for this than 'clear', IMO. A conscience can be 'clear' but a heart is 'pure'--I see these as commonly used to describe the difference between conscious and unconscious qualities.

A belief can be a subset of a meme, but a principle transcends memes.  Example: Truth is a valued principle; yet a belief may appear to be true until enough evidence to the contrary develops. Principles would be acceptable to challenge within memes, but beliefs would be more protected by the status members. Beliefs attract attention and establish focus. They are often used to maintain authority and prominence within a group structure, yet principles stand available for the individual to subjectively support and hold little authority within a memeplex. At least this is how I see it

Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter

1+1=1
  • Registered: 2006-03-29

Re: Principles vs Beliefs

I agree, 'pure' is more synonymous with 'heart'.  I just like to use words in differing ways, creating additional connections.  For instance, a pure mind and clear heart.  Close to the same meaning but off enough to have a different angle of exploration.  I didn't mean to confuse though.

Yes, "principle transcends memes".  That's what I was trying to express.

I think it's also important to note that there is a big difference between exploring beliefs and defending them.  I like to accept all beliefs not as being truth but as being something to explore further.  Also, in the exploration of beliefs, explaining your understanding of it may be construed as defending.  Since I can't know if someone firmly believes something or not unless they specifically say so, I tend to allow for all levels of exploration without jumping to conclusions.

  • T-Ren
  • T-Ren
  • work in progress
  • Offline
  • From: Earth Lab
  • Registered: 2004-11-17

Re: Principles vs Beliefs

Zen wrote:

I'm looking at principles as something personal and unchallengable.

I agree That's why when you go back to the definitions you posted in post 1 I said I try to operate out of 3&4 mostly because they are personal. Part of what I was trying to do was to show how principles can be more fluid and beliefs a little more concrete.

Zen wrote:

I think it's also important to note that there is a big difference between exploring beliefs and defending them.  I like to accept all beliefs not as being truth but as being something to explore further.

I agree. I can't recall if it was stated as such in the meme thread but to me a meme is an irrational, erroneous belief.

titmouse wrote:

memeplex.

nice.

Peace,
Teddy

"It means the Matrix can't tell you who you are" - Trinity
  • Registered: 2006-03-29

Re: Principles vs Beliefs

T-Ren wrote:

Wouldn't beliefs start out as principles until you meet that which challenges it.

T-Ren wrote:

part of what I was trying to do was to show how principles can be more fluid and beliefs a little more concrete.

I gotcha.  Yea beliefs, at a personal level, can be thought of by the individual as principles until they meet challeges.

T-Ren wrote:

I can't recall if it was stated as such in the meme thread but to me a meme is an irrational, erroneous belief.

Exactly.  And it's usually obvious when someone is exploring a belief (meme) or defending one.  A good example of exploration would be feritciva's new thread "Near Death Experiences: What About War In Heaven?" here link.  All the angles that can be thought of are explored and the understanding of those angles explained.  Options are kept wide open and no firm conclusions are drawn because none can be drawn seeing that we can't trully know from our present level.