interesting discussion/debate

[11:51] phoenix6669: hey
[11:51] Hare Krishna: Haribool
[11:52] Hare Krishna: I'm glad you're coming
[11:52] Hare Krishna: how's everything?
[11:52] phoenix6669: yes
[11:52] phoenix6669: good
[11:52] phoenix6669: you?
[11:53] Hare Krishna: blissful
[11:53] Hare Krishna:
[11:53] phoenix6669:
[11:53] Hare Krishna: any new realizations?
[11:54] phoenix6669: sort of
[11:54] phoenix6669: yeah
[11:56] phoenix6669: have you come to any new realizations?
[11:56] Hare Krishna: oh yeah almost daily
[11:56] Hare Krishna: haha
[11:56] phoenix6669:
[11:56] phoenix6669: wonderful
[11:56] Hare Krishna: Prabhupada's books is a bottomless well of treasures
[11:57] Hare Krishna: I was meditating recently on a verse from the Gita
[11:57] phoenix6669: yes?
[11:57] Hare Krishna: where Krsna explains how foolish people cannot understand HIm
[11:57] Hare Krishna: Yeah I learned it by heart
[11:57] Hare Krishna: avijananti mam mudha
[11:58] Hare Krishna: manusim tasum asritam
[11:58] Hare Krishna: param bhavam ajananto
[11:58] Hare Krishna: mama bhuta mahesvaram
[11:58] Hare Krishna: Fools deride me when I descend in this human form
[11:59] Hare Krishna: They do not know my transcendental nature
[11:59] Hare Krishna: and My supreme dominion over all that be
[11:59] phoenix6669: deride
[11:59] phoenix6669: what does that mean?
[11:59] Hare Krishna: mock
[11:59] phoenix6669: ah
[11:59] Hare Krishna: offend
[11:59] phoenix6669: what did you take from this?
[11:59] phoenix6669: wow
[11:59] phoenix6669: two different things
[12:00] Hare Krishna: well, it's a very important verse
[12:00] phoenix6669: two completely different tings
[12:00] phoenix6669: i don't understand how Krishna can be offended!
[12:00] Hare Krishna: haha no He cannot be
[12:00] Hare Krishna: He laughs
[12:00] phoenix6669: one can do something that is offensive
[12:00] phoenix6669: yes
[12:00] phoenix6669: but surely he is not so petty as to actually be offended
[12:01] phoenix6669: ok
[12:01] phoenix6669: lol
[12:01] Hare Krishna: no, what does He care about tiny stools haha?
[12:01] Hare Krishna: but there are commentators of the Gita
[12:01] Hare Krishna: who are misinterpreting it
[12:02] Hare Krishna: and they say that Krsna's form is material
[12:02] Hare Krishna: so this is the deriding
[12:02] phoenix6669: they say he is offended?
[12:02] phoenix6669: like we hurt him?
[12:02] Hare Krishna: no
[12:02] phoenix6669: heee hee
[12:02] Hare Krishna: they say that there's a difference between Krsna's spirit and His body
[12:02] Hare Krishna: they take Krsna as an ordinary man
[12:03] Hare Krishna: you know superficial
[12:03] Hare Krishna: superficially
[12:03] phoenix6669: ok
[12:03] Hare Krishna: I am human, Krsna looks like human, therefore Krsna is like me
[12:03] Hare Krishna: but you cannot understand Krsna like that
[12:04] Hare Krishna: you have to change your consciousness
[12:04] Hare Krishna: in order to see Him in a true way
[12:04] phoenix6669: so what were  you thinking about this verse?
[12:04] Hare Krishna: well, many things
[12:05] Hare Krishna: mostly this
[12:05] Hare Krishna: that people because they have no knowledge, they take Krsna and HIs activities from their limited material platform
[12:06] Hare Krishna: and they become bewildered
[12:06] phoenix6669: the spiritual body of krishna is but a tiny part of him
[12:06] Hare Krishna: no
[12:06] phoenix6669: this isn't the realization?
[12:06] Hare Krishna: no, no
[12:06] phoenix6669: it is simultaneously him and not him
[12:06] Hare Krishna: Krsna's body is the source of everything
[12:06] phoenix6669: that is rediculous
[12:06] phoenix6669: there is no source
[12:07] phoenix6669: Nothing is the only source
[12:07] Hare Krishna: haha
[12:07] phoenix6669: by logic
[12:07] phoenix6669: the source of time-bound locality is non-local timelessness
[12:07] Hare Krishna: yes, you see this is the bewildrement
[12:07] phoenix6669: space-time comes from Nothing
[12:07] phoenix6669: space-time cannot come from space-time
[12:07] Hare Krishna: if I say that body is the source of everything it goes against logic
[12:07] phoenix6669: it is no bewilderment
[12:08] phoenix6669: what is the exact text?
[12:08] Hare Krishna: but that is the material limitation
[12:08] Hare Krishna: actualyl it does not go against the logic
[12:08] Hare Krishna: if you understand the spirit soul
[12:08] Hare Krishna: the soul is a minute particle in your heart
[12:09] Hare Krishna: due to this minute particle the body appears alive
[12:09] Hare Krishna: if that small particle leaves the body, the body deteriorates immediately
[12:10] phoenix6669: so you're saying it's always the same particle?
[12:10] phoenix6669: in everyone?"
[12:11] Hare Krishna: just a sec
[12:11] phoenix6669: k me too
[12:13] Hare Krishna: no, I'm not saying
[12:13] Hare Krishna: that is individual
[12:13] Hare Krishna: but first of all, that small particle is the main thing
[12:14] Hare Krishna: without the soul the body is dead, so actually the body is always dead, it appears alive only when the soul is present in it
[12:15] Hare Krishna: but still due to that small spiritual spark, we're capable of doing big big buildings, roads, construct cities, big companies, rule a country
[12:15] Hare Krishna: so that is the minute spiritual spark, so just imagine what the Supereme spirit(Krsna) can do?
[12:16] Hare Krishna: then why should it be a problem to accept that Krsna's body is the source of everything that exist?
[12:16] phoenix6669: hmmmm
[12:17] Hare Krishna: sorry which exact text did you mean?
[12:18] Hare Krishna: Fools deride Me..?
[12:18] phoenix6669: so you're saying that his spiritual body is the primary part of Him
[12:18] Hare Krishna: actually there's no primary
[12:18] Hare Krishna: in the absolute world everything is absolute
[12:18] Hare Krishna: still Krsna is the source
[12:19] phoenix6669: so Krishna is not infinity
[12:19] Hare Krishna: it is inconcievable
[12:19] phoenix6669: He is infinite
[12:19] Hare Krishna: Yeah Krsna is infinite
[12:19] Hare Krishna: His body is not like ours
[12:19] phoenix6669: we are also infinite
[12:19] phoenix6669: he is more infinite than us
[12:19] Hare Krishna: yes, true
[12:20] Hare Krishna: yes exactly
[12:20] Hare Krishna: you got that right
[12:20] phoenix6669: so what is "infinity
[12:20] phoenix6669: "
[12:20] Hare Krishna: unlimited
[12:20] Hare Krishna: by matter
[12:20] Hare Krishna: not limited by matter
[12:20] phoenix6669: does krishna's body, his spiritual body, does it have a soul?
[12:20] Hare Krishna: no
[12:21] Hare Krishna: HIs body is made of soul
[12:21] phoenix6669: so how did all this come about?
[12:21] phoenix6669: He always existed?
[12:21] Hare Krishna: yeah for sure
[12:21] Hare Krishna: we also
[12:21] Hare Krishna: that is the first teaching of Krsna
[12:21] Hare Krishna: that's how the Bhagavadgita begins
[12:21] phoenix6669: but Krishna always stays the same
[12:21] Hare Krishna: wait...
[12:21] phoenix6669: and we always change
[12:21] Hare Krishna: yeah
[12:21] Hare Krishna: exactly
[12:22] phoenix6669: well, this does not conflict with my views
[12:22] Hare Krishna: this is what Krsna says in the beginning: Never was there a time when I did not exist, nor you, nor all these kings; nor in the future shall any of us cease to be.
[12:22] Hare Krishna: haha no Krsna does not conflict with anything
[12:22] phoenix6669: right
[12:22] phoenix6669: but that's not the same as saying
[12:23] phoenix6669: eventually we can/will/must opt to leave space-time and rejoin timeless non-locality, infinity
[12:23] phoenix6669: just because we exist for eternity
[12:23] Hare Krishna: still Krsna stays Himself all the time and we becasue we are minute have a tendencyu to fall into illusion
[12:23] phoenix6669: does not mean we *have* to
[12:23] Hare Krishna: no
[12:24] Hare Krishna: becuz we're parts and parcels of Krsna
[12:24] Hare Krishna: nd He's independent we are also independent
[12:24] Hare Krishna: and therefore we have eternal free will
[12:24] phoenix6669: "nor in the future shall any of us cease to be"
[12:24] phoenix6669: this is in terms of linear time
[12:24] phoenix6669: past-present-future
[12:24] phoenix6669: this is inclusive of free will
[12:24] Hare Krishna: yes, so we the fools can understand
[12:25] Hare Krishna: haha
[12:25] phoenix6669: we do not need to stay here
[12:25] Hare Krishna: no, this is a prison house
[12:25] phoenix6669: the future has an end
[12:25] phoenix6669: unless we remain here perpetually
[12:25] phoenix6669: and who wants to?
[12:25] phoenix6669: i don't know
[12:25] phoenix6669: often we are encouraged to rejoin with source
[12:25] phoenix6669: isn't that what Krishna wants us to do?
[12:25] Hare Krishna: yes
[12:26] phoenix6669: so?
[12:26] Hare Krishna: because it is our natural position
[12:26] phoenix6669: are we here forever or not?
[12:26] phoenix6669: this is what i disagree with
[12:26] phoenix6669: this is heaven
[12:26] phoenix6669: a different kind that "up there"
[12:26] Hare Krishna: no
[12:26] phoenix6669: *than
[12:26] Hare Krishna: you are eternal, this world is temporary
[12:26] Hare Krishna: you can be here, no problem
[12:26] phoenix6669: how am i eternal?
[12:26] phoenix6669: i'm only eternal so long as i stay in the prison
[12:27] Hare Krishna: but ultimately by your constitution as spirt you will ultimately go to the spiritual world
[12:27] phoenix6669: the eternal part of "me" is precisely the part of "me" that i do not identify myself as "me"
[12:27] Hare Krishna: no, no
[12:27] Hare Krishna: it's the other way around
[12:27] Hare Krishna: the prison means you are under the bodily conception
[12:27] phoenix6669: when you are a soul you are still individual
[12:27] phoenix6669: your are not one with Krishna
[12:27] Hare Krishna: in the bodily conception you think you are temporary
[12:28] Hare Krishna: no
[12:28] Hare Krishna: you are one in the sense that you have the same quality
[12:28] Hare Krishna: but you will never become Krsna
[12:28] phoenix6669: you have the same quality now, though
[12:28] phoenix6669: you are your soul, now
[12:28] Hare Krishna: yes
[12:28] phoenix6669: even in a body
[12:28] Hare Krishna: yes
[12:28] Hare Krishna: even now
[12:28] phoenix6669: so it's ok to be here
[12:29] Hare Krishna: this is the simultaneous oneness and difference
[12:29] phoenix6669: maybe the point of being here, is to make 'here' a better place?
[12:29] Hare Krishna: haha
[12:29] Hare Krishna: yeah if you want
[12:29] phoenix6669: lol
[12:29] Hare Krishna: you can make the prison a " better place"
[12:29] Hare Krishna: but an inteligent man will ask : why not go outside and be free?
[12:29] phoenix6669: maybe you have more power down here
[12:30] Hare Krishna: but you can stay
[12:30] phoenix6669: ie more knowledge-power-responsibility
[12:30] phoenix6669: you are more like krishna here
[12:30] phoenix6669: *potentially*
[12:30] phoenix6669: it's just tougher
[12:30] Hare Krishna: yes, you have the illusion that you're God
[12:30] Hare Krishna: that is the design of this world
[12:30] phoenix6669: in essense you are less like krishna for you haven't any body
[12:30] Hare Krishna: but the problem is that everyone wants to Krsna
[12:30] Hare Krishna: so there's war
[12:31] Hare Krishna: and suffering
[12:31] phoenix6669: that's the thing
[12:31] Hare Krishna: cuz there can be only one God
[12:31] phoenix6669: we are aiming to be unique
[12:31] phoenix6669: not like Krishna
[12:31] phoenix6669: we aren
[12:31] phoenix6669: 't trying to copy him
[12:31] Hare Krishna: that unique can be utilized in two ways
[12:31] phoenix6669: we're trying to rise up of our own accord
[12:31] phoenix6669: damnit, we're his children
[12:31] Hare Krishna: unique in the sense of being unique servant of Krsna
[12:31] phoenix6669: he wants us to grow, right?
[12:32] phoenix6669: he wants us to be ourselves, not him?
[12:32] Hare Krishna: or unique in being the enemy
[12:32] Hare Krishna: yeah
[12:32] phoenix6669: and we can be more ourselves when we are furthest from him
[12:32] Hare Krishna: no
[12:32] phoenix6669: we proceed the same fundamental way as he does
[12:32] phoenix6669: be we are totally different
[12:32] Hare Krishna: that is not ourselves
[12:32] Hare Krishna: that is false ego ourselves
[12:32] phoenix6669: we make ourselves
[12:32] Hare Krishna: just like a man thinks I'm a president
[12:32] phoenix6669: Krishna continues to expand
[12:32] phoenix6669: through us
[12:33] Hare Krishna: but after his body is finihsed he becomes a dog
[12:33] phoenix6669: or as i would say Nothing continue to expands through us
[12:33] Hare Krishna: that is illusion
[12:33] Hare Krishna: , no
[12:33] phoenix6669: dog, human, it's all agents of consciousness
[12:33] Hare Krishna: Krsna is unlimited
[12:33] phoenix6669: i am an independent agent of consciousness
[12:33] Hare Krishna: yeah
[12:33] phoenix6669: and i refuse to rejoin krishna
[12:34] phoenix6669: to arise from krishna
[12:34] Hare Krishna: I was just explaining the concept of false identity
[12:34] phoenix6669: learn for him
[12:34] phoenix6669: play for him
[12:34] phoenix6669: do everything for him
[12:34] phoenix6669: for him
[12:34] phoenix6669: and then go back
[12:34] phoenix6669: so that he can be the fuller for it
[12:34] phoenix6669: i will retain my individuality forever
[12:34] phoenix6669: because he is infinite
[12:34] Hare Krishna: yeah
[12:34] phoenix6669: it hurts him not
[12:34] phoenix6669: not a bit
[12:34] Hare Krishna: no
[12:34] phoenix6669: in fact it's what he wants
[12:34] phoenix6669: this is the right way
[12:34] phoenix6669: if i do it right
[12:35] Hare Krishna: he wants sincere love
[12:35] phoenix6669: if i don't do it right, i'll go back to krishna
[12:35] phoenix6669: the child has failed
[12:35] phoenix6669: goes back to the womb
[12:35] phoenix6669: sure i love him
[12:35] phoenix6669: i love myself
[12:35] phoenix6669: i am him
[12:35] Hare Krishna: and you are not at the same tme
[12:35] phoenix6669: does a parent want the child to love their own self more?
[12:35] phoenix6669: or them, the parent, more?
[12:36] phoenix6669: it's not like he is lacking love
[12:36] Hare Krishna: if he loves the parent, then he will understand himself
[12:36] phoenix6669: he is infinite
[12:36] phoenix6669: we add to him *more* through being our own unique individuals
[12:36] Hare Krishna: it's just like without sun, you cannot see yourself in the mirror
[12:37] phoenix6669: right
[12:37] Hare Krishna: you are already unique individual but you are covered by the body
[12:37] phoenix6669: but it's light, precisely light
[12:37] phoenix6669: that allows me to see myself
[12:37] Hare Krishna: that unique individual is a servant of Krsna
[12:37] phoenix6669: i don't want to be a sun
[12:37] phoenix6669: like him
[12:37] phoenix6669: i am my own unique self
[12:37] phoenix6669: i can see myself through the light
[12:37] phoenix6669: by virtue of it
[12:37] phoenix6669: i should not try to be a sun like him
[12:37] Hare Krishna: and as soon as you are covered by body you think you are unique in being president, dog, reptile, woman, man and so many fake identities
[12:37] phoenix6669: that is blasphemy
[12:37] phoenix6669: He is the sun
[12:37] Hare Krishna: yes
[12:37] phoenix6669: so?
[12:37] Hare Krishna: Krsna doesn't want robots
[12:38] Hare Krishna: he wants your true feelings
[12:38] Hare Krishna: robots are useless
[12:38] phoenix6669: i think krishna has been misquoted more than you'd care to admit
[12:38] Hare Krishna: oh yes, there are over 600 translations of the Gita
[12:38] Hare Krishna: and they all misquot HIm
[12:39] phoenix6669: that's not my point though
[12:39] Hare Krishna: that's why our method is to take it from Krsna as it is
[12:39] Hare Krishna: no interpretation
[12:39] phoenix6669: you cannot not interpret
[12:40] phoenix6669: you are human
[12:40] Hare Krishna: no, there's a difference
[12:40] Hare Krishna: if Krsna says: Think of Me, become my devotee
[12:40] Hare Krishna: and some rascal says: actually it is not that you should think of Krsna
[12:40] Hare Krishna: that is interpretation
[12:40] Hare Krishna: misinterpretation
[12:41] Hare Krishna: and if you say: think of Krsna, become His devotee
[12:41] Hare Krishna: that is correct
[12:41] Hare Krishna: you don't alter the meaning
[12:42] phoenix6669: i am incredulous because i do not understand how you can be so wise with this final thing lying in front of your nose
[12:42] Hare Krishna: this is what happens, these rascals are misinterpreting like that
[12:42] phoenix6669: it is because it is
[12:42] phoenix6669: of course it is
[12:42] phoenix6669: so?
[12:42] phoenix6669: what is it?
[12:42] Hare Krishna: huh?
[12:43] phoenix6669: it's just that generally when we come to the end of our discussions, it is a matter of he/she said or didn't say
[12:43] phoenix6669: and to me this isn't an argument
[12:43] Hare Krishna: what is your objection?
[12:44] phoenix6669: i have no objection
[12:44] phoenix6669: i respect your views, but i have no points left to argue
[12:44] Hare Krishna: you have to accept authority
[12:44] Hare Krishna: everyone
[12:44] phoenix6669: maybe i'm a bit insolent
[12:44] Hare Krishna: if you don't accept Krsna then you will say: I say" instead of He says
[12:44] phoenix6669: parents don't always know best!
[12:44] phoenix6669: lol
[12:44] Hare Krishna: haha
[12:45] Hare Krishna: no, but because you're limited you have to take some rope
[12:45] Hare Krishna: you have no choice
[12:45] phoenix6669: well, i've enjoyed this conversation
[12:45] phoenix6669: i want to get to some writing now
[12:45] Hare Krishna: haha yeah me too
[12:45] Hare Krishna: ok it will be nice when you come
[12:45] phoenix6669: see you thursday
[12:45] phoenix6669: yup
[12:45] Hare Krishna: great
[12:46] phoenix6669: namaste
[12:46] Hare Krishna: Hare Krsna

I thought this was insightful. Comments?