16 Reply by Avalokita (edited by Avalokita 2006-09-05 01:19:14)

  • Registered: 2006-09-01

Re: How often do you lie?

The absolute kicker is ( to save myself from prosecution). Find someone who will put right ahead of consequence and you've found yourself a true STO.

So if it's wrong to lie to protect yourself from prosecution, then you must believe that the morality of lying is even worse then the injustice of prosecution. I read a story about this once. It was set in Nazi Germany, and was about a family hiding a group of Jews from the Nazi's. One of them believed that lying was so wrong, that when the Nazi's burst in, and said, "Where are the Jew's?", she said, "Under the table." The Nazi's looked under the table and didn't see them, and left. But the Jews were hiding in the cellar through a trap door under the table. People like that are dangerous to be around in situations with out of control governments.

Believing in absolute morality, may be fine in theory and inside churches, but absolute morality in this day and age can absolutely get people killed. I believe that the morality of life and freedom is a greater thing to protect, then the belief that you should never lie to people trying to harm you or the ones you love.

  • From: istanbul
  • Registered: 2004-05-13

Re: How often do you lie?

All Cretans are liars.

Ferit the Cretan

Change we must, to live again
- Jon Anderson

18 Reply by Magical_Mongoose (edited by Magical_Mongoose 2006-09-05 21:11:50)

  • From: A place forgotten
  • Registered: 2006-05-15

Re: How often do you lie?

Well, what if telling the truth could land you in jail for, let's say, possessing marijuana? And telling a simple lie would let you remain free. It's happened to my friends before, where if they told the truth, there would've been seriously unneccessary repurcussions.

Would you lie about telling your age so you could get into a movie if you were 17 and it was 18R?

In my opinion, lying is an inherent right when fighting against an oppressive state which does not respect the rights of its citizens to expand their minds peacefully. Censorship is a crime, drug policy based upon racial discrimination is a crime (the banning of marijuana ultimately has its roots in the jazz scene of New York during the 1920s, where pretty white girls were being corrupted by the satanic influences of pot-smoking, jazz-playing African-Americans...yeah right tongue), and all the other attempts to prevent one from peacefully seeking out their niche in life is a crime. And you have a moral obligation to oppose the policies of a state or a corporation through peaceful acts of non-compliance if they are violating the rights that we are entitled to as free human beings.

Furthermore, lying by omission isn't wrong in my opinion. Even the gurus of ancient times never revealed the whole truth, the whole picture to their disciples before they were ready, and they often sidestepped any question they felt their students could not handle. The sword must be tempered in the forge before it can gain its strength to do battle, for a sword brandished too early in a war will be the first to shatter.

"Don't eat any wooden nickels."

Magical_Mongoose's Website

  • From: England
  • Registered: 2005-04-20

Re: How often do you lie?

Magical_Mongoose wrote:

In my opinion, lying is an inherent right when fighting against an oppressive state which does not respect the rights of its citizens to expand their minds peacefully. Censorship is a crime, drug policy based upon racial discrimination is a crime (the banning of marijuana ultimately has its roots in the jazz scene of New York during the 1920s, where pretty white girls were being corrupted by the satanic influences of pot-smoking, jazz-playing African-Americans...yeah right tongue), and all the other attempts to prevent one from peacefully seeking out their niche in life is a crime. And you have a moral obligation to oppose the policies of a state or a corporation through peaceful acts of non-compliance if they are violating the rights that we are entitled to as free human beings.

I agree, i dont live in the TPTB reality but my own and i would not hesitate to lie to any illusionary authority if the need arises.
Self deception or lying to one self seems to be more of an issue than being totally honest with busy bodies/OPs and authority i feel.

Its not like we are fractions of the whole but rather versions of the whole.

20 Reply by titmouse_ (edited by titmouse_ 2006-09-06 08:16:13)

  • From: Shores of Lake Titikaka
  • Registered: 2006-05-25

Re: How often do you lie?

Barefoot Doc wrote:
Magical_Mongoose wrote:

In my opinion, lying is an inherent right when fighting against an oppressive state which does not respect the rights of its citizens to expand their minds peacefully. Censorship is a crime, drug policy based upon racial discrimination is a crime (the banning of marijuana ultimately has its roots in the jazz scene of New York during the 1920s, where pretty white girls were being corrupted by the satanic influences of pot-smoking, jazz-playing African-Americans...yeah right tongue), and all the other attempts to prevent one from peacefully seeking out their niche in life is a crime. And you have a moral obligation to oppose the policies of a state or a corporation through peaceful acts of non-compliance if they are violating the rights that we are entitled to as free human beings.

I agree, i dont live in the TPTB reality but my own and i would not hesitate to lie to any illusionary authority if the need arises.
Self deception or lying to one self seems to be more of an issue than being totally honest with busy bodies/OPs and authority i feel.

LipstickMystic wrote:

We are in the midst of a huge, planetary shift in energies and a lot of people are choosing to "wake up" and to simply start living in a different way. You can quietly do this and stop giving power to that entire boring cast of predictable, Darth Vader, characters.  They're annoying. They're boring.  They really are like poorly drawn characters in an atrocious movie, one-dimensional, ugly, idiotic. Ultimately, they have NO power over us. So why give them power by obsessing about taking them out?

Instead, it can be wise to choose to live in a different reality and to create that with people in your world who share a vibration of love.  You don't have to join a commune or become a hippie to do this   You can simply raise your own vibration and seek companions who are also in a good space with self-managed energy.  Seeking companions of light instead of obsessing over denizens of the dark can really make a difference in not only the world you experience, but the world that others see reflected back at them.

dylanfarms wrote:

Manipulating is a common form of control and it requires not being as truthful as possible, so being truthful counteracts and maybe breaks the habit to manipulate, and thus the truth could help set you free by helping you lose your desire to control.

What about instead we gave them compassion, and by loving them we grow stronger and they "wake up" to the value of truth and justice. It seems like a WIN-WIN senario--worth a try. To judge someone an illusionary authority makes you judgmental, does it not(?)...and then on top of that it makes you a liar. It seems TPTB win when you engage in lying--except where your life is at risk.  You don't think they know you are lying? From what Dylanfarms says, manipulation is something we do to control others, which includes lying--we do it to gain control in a situation, thus we use "the Lie" and it keeps us from our freedom. The illusionary authority wins!

Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter

1+1=1

21 Reply by Barefoot Doc (edited by Barefoot Doc 2006-09-06 09:45:15)

  • From: England
  • Registered: 2005-04-20

Re: How often do you lie?

titmouse_ wrote:

To judge someone an illusionary authority makes you judgmental, does it not(?)...and then on top of that it makes you a liar. It seems TPTB win when you engage in lying--except where your life is at risk.  You don't think they know you are lying? From what Dylanfarms says, manipulation is something we do to control others, which includes lying--we do it to gain control in a situation, thus we use "the Lie" and it keeps us from our freedom. The illusionary authority wins!

As is a judgement that they are "real" is also being"judgemental in this context, of course the people are real i am referring to the belief systems and social conditioning that makes us feel we need these people to Lord over us. We dont need them or their realities that they try make real for you, they have just brainwashed into accepting their authority which is a complete illusion.
We are confusing ourselves with language here using words like "Judgement" we all have to make judgements about our reality and i am no different to you in that respect.

Manipulation is a double  edged sword and its just as likey that we are manipulated into believing that we have to be honest when dealing with authorities as they know how to play on our fears.
It just does not matter as long as you are true to yourself and being manipulated into thinking you must be honest at all times or suffer from a lack of growth or whatever is self deception.

If one feels that being totally honest with all will bring you salvation and other goodies then good luck to them but until we can be honest with ourselves then its all just Sophistry in my opinon.

Edit this is a matrix that runs on lies and deception and illusions but relies on our faith and belief in to keep the systems running, the matrix lies to you daily but we feel we have somehow humour this illusion with honesty? thats a paradox. I feel the matrix does not care whether you lie to or not as long as you believe in it. I have stopped believing in it so how can i lie to an illusion?

Further Edit: I have just read my post and it reads like a make a habit of fibbing to Big Brother which i have not cause to as yet smile apart from a national census a few years back when i put a few silly things down.
I have lied to cover up embarassment, to get people of my back and people i consider nosy or prying in my social and work life.
Looking back i think there were ways i could handled the situation without lying like saying "mind your own bloody business" smile

Its not like we are fractions of the whole but rather versions of the whole.

22 Reply by Natural Mystic (edited by Natural Mystic 2006-09-06 09:18:10)

  • From: aworld w/out invisible borders
  • Registered: 2005-06-09

Re: How often do you lie?

None of the above.

The last time I lied was for the most insecure ego reason of not being embarassed.

I cannot really remember the other times I've lied recently other than a few years ago, and during my childhood because I did something that was "supposed" to be "bad" and didn't want to admit it.

I think that before one can look at a lie, one has to find out where the lie came from (inside) and why they lied.

So if lies lie on the inside, knowing what to do for one's self would be the main objective, thus knowing yourself comes first before the act/reaction of lying.  It's like the story of Jesus and how he didn't lie to save himself from death.  Actually, that example is extreme.

I think lying only goes as far as awareness. Without awareness there would be reasons to lie to either "gain power" or manipulate, etc.  With awareness, one is in control of themselves and does not care what the other person may think of her/him.

To judge someone an illusionary authority makes you judgmental, does it not(?)

Good question.

I was in the car the other day with my mom, and I was talking about how I am taking a sociology class called "Understanding Society" and was theorizing that my papers might be "against the grain" of mainstream thoughts.  And then my mom said "Well thats fine, as long as you know that it is your truth".  So that got me thinking about a discussion we had here before "On the subject of Truth".  In that topic I was saying "Well it depends on 'your' Truth right?"

But then I started thinking about the manipulation going on, and I told my mom that "Sure, someone could think that the government is doing its best for humanity and really cares about the populace, but that would be wrong, and the Truth is the opposite".  Or something like that anyways.  I just feel as though some things ARE true, and kind of 'need to be known'.  But its just a theory in progress.  Maybe someone could live their whole life oblivious to the whole alien/mind control/government conspiracy themes and still "escape the prison" (if we are indeed living in one!)?

Back to the quotation above, wouldn't any form of "authority" be an illusion? wink  Thus being non jugdemental but truth?

As for manipulation.  If we take the word itself, isn't to manipulate a form of transmutation/creation?  Now I am in no way saying it is right to manipulate others, but we have the power to manipulate our lives directly.  Like Mongoose's comment about lying about the possesion of certain drugs.  It's not like I am going to get down on my knee's and give into "authority" which I'll say IS an illusion.  So in this hypothetical situation I would lie.  (The thing is I would never put myself into any situation like that). 

Morpheus wrote:

No Neo, what I'm trying to say is that when you're ready, you won't have to.

Remember, you're in control of your own life. wink

Dogding bullets can be a metaphor for sooooo many things, like lying in this instance.  So when you're ready (high awareness) there is no need for lying as 1-you know who you are (connected with All) and 2- you wouldn't attract a situation in which you needed to lie to an "illusory autoritative form of law".

"Beyond the stars a new world awaits me now" - Wintersun

Natural Mystic's Website

  • From: LA
  • Registered: 2005-09-18

Re: How often do you lie?

Every day.

Regards,

Lee

24 Reply by lyra (edited by lyra 2006-09-06 11:03:11)

  • lyra
  • lyra
  • Naked Emperor Pointer Outer
  • Offline
  • From: my own private idaho
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: How often do you lie?

whywhywhy wrote:

Every day.

Regards,

Lee

Love it!  big_smile   All this philosophical round and round, heartfelt discussion about why it's just not right to lie because of what it does to a person spiritually, then Lee gets on here.  "[I lie] every day."  That's it.  Then leaves.  Bye!  haha  That's awesome.   Somebody had to do it!

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy shit ... what a ride!"  - Anonymous
-----
"I get by with a little help from my (higher density) friends."
-----

lyra's Website

25 Reply by LipstickMystic

  • LipstickMystic
  • Guest

Re: How often do you lie?

I like it all, everything in this thread.

But I'd like to encourage people to focus on a related idea, if you feel so inspired.

What conditions would need to be changed in your daily life for you to be able to stop lying entirely?

You see, I'm very lucky because I have this structure.  I live with my partner, and he and I have had a 100% honesty policy for the entire eight years we've been together.  As long as honesty is tempered from the place of, "I love you and that's why I'm going to tell you the truth instead of being passive aggressively girlie or overly macho and lying about stupid stuff," then everything works fine.  We know everything about each other, yet we still have privacy within our relationship to run our respective businesses, do our own thang, etc.  I love this.  I can't imagine NOT being in a relationship like that.

I also work for myself.  Well, I have clients, but there's no reason to ever lie to them, as it's a straightforward relationship of "write stuff; submit it to them; get paid by them."  They don't edit my material except for grammatical mistakes, and I have a great deal of freedom of self-expression.

In all of my posts on the many forums I've been a member of, and on my own website, I also have a 100% truth telling policy. That's self-induced.  I'm just not comfortable with lying to get an effect out of someone. That's why products that I sell, ideas that I share, etc. all have to be something I truly feel to be in integrity.  Then I can honestly share that with readers, from a place of enthusiasm and clarity.

I have a great relationship with my immediate neighbors, with whom I am 100% truthful.  Friends, same way. Parents, same way. 

But it took a while to get there. Meaning, I worked at my relationship with my parents so we're friends in a really wonderful way at this point in my life.  We dont' always see things the same way, but we are 100% honestly supportive and loving of each other. 

So, I don't mean to be annoying or overly "birds and willows" with this post.  I just wanted to say that it really is possible to live a life relatively free of even NEEDING to lie for all the old, usual reasons of self-protection, self-defense, etc. It has to do with making sure you dont' live in a reality where you are being attacked all the time and feel you have to dodge the truth with people in order to satisfy a dysfunctional client, boss, etc.

I also feel truly lucky and blessed because, other than a few temp office jobs in my late teens and early 20's (which were great learning experiences and very pleasant for the most part) and a few years of working in live theater and bit parts in TV, (which were also really fun and amazing),  I've been able to avoid taking a "real" job. Been self-employed, which still has its challenges, but it can also allow you to step into your power and refuse to take abuse from others if somebody's being idiotic, and that keeps your vibration pretty cheerful and "up." 

So anyway, back to my question......if you do find that you lie every day, or you feel you have to lie more than you want to.....what would have to change in your life for this to stop?  And is it possible to create that, or to perhaps create a greater degree of that, now? 

LipstickMystic aka Jennifer

  • From: the mine
  • Registered: 2005-11-15

Re: How often do you lie?

That's just it Lipstick, lies are symptoms, nothing can change until the underlying (no pun intended) causes are addressed.

In order for anyone to 'truth up' on any kind of consistent basis, the situations which make lies tempting, or the "easy way out", must be altered or eliminated.

If everyone woke up one day unable to fictionalize, we would have some very serious teething problems.......

                                                          J

"I hate dreaming. because when you want to sleep, you want to sleep. Dreaming is work. Next thing you know I have to build a go-kart with my ex landlord"
-The late Mitch Hedberg

27 Reply by titmouse_ (edited by titmouse_ 2006-09-07 22:18:12)

  • From: Shores of Lake Titikaka
  • Registered: 2006-05-25

Re: How often do you lie?

From the book "People of the Lie" M.Scott Peck wrote:

Page 73 "A predominant characteristic of the behavior that I call evil is scapegoating. Because in their hearts they consider themselves above reproach, they must lash out at anyone who does reproach them. They sacrifice others to preserve their self-image of perfection."

"THE PATHOLOGICAL DISHONESTY DISEASE"

Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter

1+1=1
  • From: aworld w/out invisible borders
  • Registered: 2005-06-09

Re: How often do you lie?

Alrighty, I take it back, I lie at times. 

I just couldn't go to work today...

"Beyond the stars a new world awaits me now" - Wintersun

Natural Mystic's Website