Topic: Theory on Reality

so basically, the way i see it, good and bad are basically things created by man. look at the natural world. there is no evil, there is no good. there is only existence. think about it.  now think about this. someone once asked me "What is time?" the answer i came up with was "Time is a label. Mankind, in its need to rationalize everything, is forced to label all that it cannot understand. It is our way of dealing with the unknown." Now, I want you to give this some honest thought, and realize the point it proves. Everything that we believe in is basically a label designed to assist in rationalizing what we cannot understand. Now tell me what you think would happen if we mentally got rid of these labels, and allowed ourselves to attempt to fathom the universe, in all of its realities and dimensions. Imagine what you could learn, imagine the knowledge and wisdom you could gather, if you just opened yourself up to every possibility. The main flaw ive seen in a lot of the theories ive read is that they block out a major aspect. They seem to all focus mainly on fighting what is labeled "Evil". Why? How can you truly be free of restraints if you dont submit yourself to all the aspects of life that you can? It would be like Bill Gates relating to a hobo. You cannot live in one aspect of life, without ever experienceing the other, and truly expect to understand a single thing beisdes whats taught with labels.




By all means, flame this theory. This is where I'm at right now, and im always subject to change. Im basically posting this to get your opinion on it.

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2 (edited by Neomatrix 2006-07-19 17:06:41)

Re: Theory on Reality

Yeah, good post. I've often thought that labelling things may be as much of a hindrance as a help in understanding the truth of anything. Labels like 'spirit', 'soul', 'god', 'love', 'consciousness', 'energy', 'time', etc, are all just labels that describe things whose nature we do not (and can not) truly understand or comprehend through the medium of the label itself.

"Fear is the great barrier to human growth. Unknowns create fears. When these Unknowns become Knowns the fears diminish and disappear, and we are able to cope with whatever confronts us." - Robert A. Monroe

Re: Theory on Reality

that is exactly what i was talking about. basically, ive come to the conclusion that labels let us "know" the truth, not "understand" the truth. We know what the label means, but we dont understand it. God is a prime example. Everyone knows what you mean when you say God, but very few people truly understand it.

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4 (edited by titmouse_ 2006-07-19 17:56:52)

Re: Theory on Reality

If your metaphysics is based on cause and effect then you could use the labels good/bad. You could judge an effect to be desirable or undesirable; right of wrong; good or bad. If your metaphysics is based on quality, then good or bad has little use. In the metaphysics of quality you would examine reality from a relative perspective. Something could be of a higher value in your world and would not require a label from which to make a dualistic judgment.

I would advise to look at labels in terms of general guidelines for communication and not solid boundary lines. In the universe there are no distinct boundaries, but rather degrees in the spectrum of existence--fields rather than sharp objects.

Relativity implies relationships rather than consistent empirical observation. Evil is relative to good, as darkness is relative to the light. One may not exist without the contrast  of the other, therefore evil is created by good; ignorance is created by the informed; hate is born of love, or the misapplication of it.

In the metaphysics of quality, love would be experienced in a degree, such as a high expression or a low expression. Hate would not be necessary, we would simply feel a low emotional resonance for our enemies, that is until we found a greater understanding for them through a greater value placed on diversity and greater sharing of common values.

Science is solidly based in cause and effect; materialism depends on the dualism between true and not true. Intuition has a more relative releationship in our universe, but intellectualism depends on memory , and therefore everything is designated a "bit" that can be catagorized and stored for later retrieval.  This lends itself to cause and effect thinking--and ultimately contradiction and confusion.  Quality is a relative measure more rooted in the current moment.  We make quality judgments from spacial thinking where lines are not so defined, whereas linear thinking supports dualism, and cause and effect intellectual analysis.

Creative and intuitive intelligence is vastly greater than linear, rational thinking.  A much smaller segment of the population can utilize this intelligence and are trapped in static linear mode. I suggest you develop your creativity if you are searching for answers outside of the box of rationalism.

Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter


1+1=1

Re: Theory on Reality

Well obviously no label or definition can accurately describe the infinite, because be definition they are finite.  Some labels are more useful than others, however, in that they can point you in the right direction.  The classic zen analogy is the finger pointing at the moon, the finger is not the moon, but it can show you where to find it. 
All useful spiritual techniques and philosophies are just like this.  The only problem is that inevitably people will get hung up on the pointers and forget to actually look at the moon (or think the pointer IS the moon), and many will insist that "there is only ONE true finger that can point to the moon, all the rest point to my asshole."
The map is not the territory, as some would say.

seeker of truth

follow no path
all paths lead where

truth is here

E.E. Cummings

Re: Theory on Reality

"If your metaphysics is based on cause and effect then you could use the labels good/bad. You could judge an effect to be desirable or undesirable; right of wrong; good or bad."

This right here is what im trying to avoid. Im hoping to make people realize that in ANY use, good and bad are relative terms.



"I would advise to look at labels in terms of general guidelines for communication and not solid boundary lines. In the universe there are no distinct boundaries, but rather degrees in the spectrum of existence--fields rather than sharp objects."

I agree with this wholeheartedly. My entire theory is designed to convince people that nothing is definitive.


"In the metaphysics of quality, love would be experienced in a degree, such as a high expression or a low expression. Hate would not be necessary, we would simply feel a low emotional resonance for our enemies, that is until we found a greater understanding for them through a greater value placed on diversity and greater sharing of common values."

I would even take it one step further then this though. Having labels at all sets a boundary. When labeling hate and love, Hate cannot be Love. Even when viewed in degrees, it is difficult for people to wrap their minds around the two at the same time. A lot of people are so wrapped up in labels that they feel that the two cannot be the same. When you truly examine how each makes you feel, you can understand how similar the two are, but by labeling them as opposites, the similarities become hard to see.



My point is that everything in the universe involving feelings is the exact same. Even varying degrees is a label. The only thing that changes in the universe is our perception of it. In the physical world, anything that operates below "intelligent" thought displays this theory. Do you think a deer regards a wolf as evil? The deer knows the wolf is there to harm it. The deer knows to survive it has to escape or fight, and fighting isnt a very good option. The wolf knows the deer is there as food, and knows the deer is not going to want to be eaten. The relationship is neither good nor evil. It merely exists. As soon as "intelligent thought" is entered into the mix, you suddenly have the wolf, the evil predator, ripping the deer to shreds. The deer, the elegant beautiful innocent victim, must be protected because it is good. Thus far, this view has obviously worked well, what with mass extermination and all.


Anyways, back to my main point. I don't really mean to debate the meaning of labels as much as I'm trying to get you all to consider what exactly what you think is good and right, not what society has told you is right, but what you FEEL is right. I want you to look at yourself and find out exactly what you think is right and wrong. When you find out what you feel is right, I want you to force yourself to do the exact opposite of that, if for no other reason then to experience it.

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Re: Theory on Reality

"Creative and intuitive intelligence is vastly greater than linear, rational thinking.  A much smaller segment of the population can utilize this intelligence and are trapped in static linear mode. I suggest you develop your creativity if you are searching for answers outside of the box of rationalism."

Im not doing this for my personal gain. I wouldn't have posted this if i didnt already think in that way. I already have abandoned "rational" thinking. It's kind of a recent thing, and ive been working on it over the past few years, but the best way i can describe it is that at one point my mind was boxed into what most would consider normal thought. Through a bit of effort, i have managed to break away what barriers i had, and at this point i can easily step back and let my mind run its course, i can feel things, it feels like my surroundings are basically pouring into my head. its a level of perception im not quite used to, and to be honest it feels weird, but in my opinion it is a definite step forward.

"The only problem is that inevitably people will get hung up on the pointers and forget to actually look at the moon (or think the pointer IS the moon), and many will insist that "there is only ONE true finger that can point to the moon, all the rest point to my asshole."
The map is not the territory, as some would say."

I couldn't agree more with you. This is one reason why i hate religion with a passion. People lose focus on the main point, and get absorbed in petty details.

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Re: Theory on Reality

I have come to believe that it's impossible for me to know the entire truth about any situation. Ego doesn't like this proposition, however. It likes to believe it knows the entire truth because it gives it a feeling of control and superiority.

Re: Theory on Reality

trust me, i know how u feel. Ego and Pride are two of the hardest things to let go. you pretty much have to admit to yourself that you dont understand a damn thing about reality before you can progress. mind you "know" and "understand" are two compeletely different things in my book

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Re: Theory on Reality

"This is one reason why i hate religion with a passion."

It seems you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater here.  Just because religion is usually misinterpretted or misapplied doesn't mean it lacks value.  The key is to keep your eyes and mind open.  If your rejecting all religion out of hand though, that is no different than blindly accepting it, just different sides of the same coin.

seeker of truth

follow no path
all paths lead where

truth is here

E.E. Cummings

11 (edited by Twistd 2006-07-19 18:32:13)

Re: Theory on Reality

Let me clarify that statement. I hate religion, but i support religious belief. In my opinion, a religion is too rigid, and cannot shift with the times, and therefore is prone to violent outbreak. Now religious belief is something that is completely different, and also something that i support. Christianity is a religion. Belief in God is a religious belief. do you understand the subtle differences that i mean when i seperate the two?

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12 (edited by titmouse_ 2006-07-19 18:43:11)

Re: Theory on Reality

if we must, could we use the terms "faith" and "intellectualism"? We could then discuss value in a relative sense rather than a polarized comparison.  I have faith and I embrace  intellectualism also. I see faith as a stronger concept for feelings and intellectualism addresses rationalism. I find intellectualism forces us into contradiction and confusion; faith is something I can intuit but cannot express in labels. isn't this your point-- to avoid labels and go with gut feelings and subjective experience?

Fun fact: Great Tits are common in Europe

To know love is to know trust; to know oneself is to know truth
~~carefulcarpenter


1+1=1

Re: Theory on Reality

Ah, so it is religious institutions you abhor.  I can respect (and agree with) that, as I have yet to find an institution that didn't eventually become corrupted, even the best of them.  In the best of them, there is usually some profound visionary, with a deep grasp of the truth, that began the institution and laid down a map of (er, to) the infinite.  Of course, as soon as the visionary dies, the followers inevitably mistake the map for the territory, and down the toilet it goes.

This is simply because artifice, because it is always a product of the human mind, can never approach the absolute.  That is why the best teachers refuse to fall into this trap. 

Even the Dao De Jing, probably the closest words can come to the unmanifest, wouldn't have been written had its author (Lao Tzu) had his way.  The story is that he refused to write anything down, but a guard over a bridge would not let him cross unless he recorded a bit of his timeless wisdom.

seeker of truth

follow no path
all paths lead where

truth is here

E.E. Cummings

Re: Theory on Reality

for the sake of ease, yea, lets use faith and intellectualism. Your definitions of those seem to work very well.


"isn't this your point-- to avoid labels and go with gut feelings and subjective experience?" Perfect :-) Now the goal is to apply it to your day to day life

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Re: Theory on Reality

"I'm wondering why so many philosophies seem so intent on escaping the physical world?  I know there is all kinds of icky and unpleasant stuff, but that is part of what makes this world so exciting.  What amazes me is that so many otherwise insightful people will let this unpleasantness complete nullify or blind them to all the beauty and amazing freedom and all around great stuff this world has to offer.  To paraphrase Ran Prieur (ranprieur.com in one of his essays) "I don't want to ride a linear progression out of the physical realm, I want to ride the physical realm out of linear progression."

What I see too often, especially in the more New Agey crowd, is a sort of spiritual hierarchy.  "I am sooo done with this world, so I'm going to incarnate into the astral/causal/you name it realm next time.

Here is a thought, what if it is the desire to escape, the desire for something more, that prevents us from achieving it?"




Adding this to my view. Great viewpoint thanks to limukala

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