• From: the mine
  • Registered: 2005-11-15

Topic: Poll- 1984: How Close?

I would like to hear opinions on how far advanced we all are as various locales concerning the "total police state".

On a scale of 1 to 10...
1 being alone on a deserted island, 10 being 100% surveilled every moment, as in Orwell's classic.

I am in central New York State, Northeast U.S., I would rate the current level here as 7- 7.5.

I have a feeling some Brits will give much higher numbers, also Americans from other states, this is merely for comparison.

One event that has ratcheted up the police state in my area is as follows:

In May, a police officer was killed in pursuit of a reckless rider he observed doing wheelies (while on his way to a 911 call as well).

Wet roads, and an SUV pursuit vehicle did not help matters, the cop struck a tree.

I'm not questioning the officer's decision to pursue, he was doing his job, and it was tragic.

However, I had a feeling there would be an unspoken vendetta of sorts after this incident, regarding how motorcyclists of varying creed would be treated in the future.

Seems I was right.

Now, some riders are instant felons, almost literally, for being on the "wrong" kind of bike (CBRs, Ninjas etc.)

One aquaintance did a no-no, lifted the front wheel on the highway riding in a pack. Apparently he was spotted by helicopter.

The Golden Opportunity for law enforcement to make an example of.

He was stopped, made to sprawl out on his face on the pavement, cuffed, screamed at, 3 lanes of traffic stopped.

The heli already had the spotlight on him, no fewer than 12 ground units showed up, and a television news crew even showed up. Luckily he did not have a camera shoved in his face.

This is the sort of thing that would have, a few short years ago, gotten little if any serious attention from the police.

So I actually must say that before the officer's death my rating here was about a 6, and the one incident took it up 1- 1.5 points overnight.

How are things where you all are?

                                                J

"I hate dreaming. because when you want to sleep, you want to sleep. Dreaming is work. Next thing you know I have to build a go-kart with my ex landlord"
-The late Mitch Hedberg
  • Registered: 2005-07-09

Re: Poll- 1984: How Close?

I have experienced a dramatic drop in police harrassment since my teens and early 20s. One of the times I was walking home from work at approx 1-3am timeframe they accused me of threatening an officer with a sub-machine gun and blocked off 3 lanes of traffic and had umpteen units responding and I thought I might get shot. All for minding my own business. Have several similar sorts of experiences, never attracked news crews or helicopters, but swat, gang units, and stuff yeah used to be all the time. Changes in the way I look and the fact that I own a car now are probably big factors in the change. Now sometimes the cops smile and say hi to me. So I guess I'll give it a 5 or a 6. I see cops everywhere, and cameras everywhere. But I really don't feel intimidated or too worried about it any more. Walking the streets at night though, I'm much more afraid of the police than criminals. And all this was in Denver, CO...

  • Registered: 2005-10-11

Re: Poll- 1984: How Close?

The total police state although seemingly close from one angle will not happen.
Take care where your thoughts-feelings go.

StarCat
  • From: the mine
  • Registered: 2005-11-15

Re: Poll- 1984: How Close?

StarCat, all due respect, are you living n the deserted island?

Wherever it is, I wanna live there!

"I hate dreaming. because when you want to sleep, you want to sleep. Dreaming is work. Next thing you know I have to build a go-kart with my ex landlord"
-The late Mitch Hedberg
  • Registered: 2005-07-09

Re: Poll- 1984: How Close?

Well it does look scarey what they want to achieve and some of the technology and potentials on the horizon, but all the signals I get say it isn't going to happen like that. I tend to agree with StarCat. I'm not too worried about it. I'm not even sure there will be a big crash at this point. If you can get yourself unhooked from materialism and consumerism and get rid of all your stuff, and find some kind of peace and joy in your heart and a personal connection to the universe, they can try to take stuff away and restrict you but it won't really matter much if they did. I just think of all the people who aren't thinking like that, where it would be the end of the world for them, and we think there's a lot of them out there... Whatever happens will probably be much worse for them, than for most of us here.

  • From: Peru
  • Registered: 2004-08-06

Re: Poll- 1984: How Close?

In the place I actually live, which is a fairly small village about 5 miles outside of the UK's 4th largest city (Leeds) I'd give it about a 3. There are no cameras anywhere apart from a few speed cameras, and if those speed cameras weren't there I'd give it about 2.

I visit the city about once every week or two and there I'd put it up to about a 5, because there's a lot more cameras. However, to be honest I don't even notice them anymore. I completely tune them out these days. Police presence everywhere is fairly minimal, even in the city. As I just said in another thread, it's not really any different to what it was 10 years ago.

I visit London several times a year and things are definitely a lot worse in London. I'd give London about an 8. There's lots more cameras and in some places lots more police. However, I still don't feel uneasy. I quite like London. A couple of months ago I was there killing time and decided to walk past the Houses of Parliament, Big Ben and West Minister Abbey for the first time since I was a kid. There was quite a lot of police around, as you'd expect, but they didn't appear threatening in any way.

I have to agree with Starcat, and I personally think that rumours of police state takeover have been grossly exaggerated.

Join me in Peru to celebrate December 21st 2012 - Visit: http://2012awakeningretreat.com/

Ayahuasca's Website

7 Reply by Auendove (edited by Auendove 2006-07-14 05:17:54)

  • From: terra incognita
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: Poll- 1984: How Close?

I have been in other countries where there was a very obvious police/military state. Once was in Puerto Vallarta for a vacation (80's), and there were plenty of officers on the streets with rifles in hand. The other time was when I lived on a military base in the Philippines in the late 60's. There were military jeeps that had manned machine guns mounted in the back of the jeeps, and they routinely monitored the whole base. We'd be out playing in the front yard and every few hours the jeeps would drive through my neighborhood. This was a part of my life for a few years.

Comparing these two experiences with where I now live about 20-30 miles from Tampa, FL in a suburb, I'd give my area a two...and that's pushing it. Although I do want to add that number is chosen based on the fact of what I don't see--surveilance cameras, a prevalent armed police presence, etc.--if I were to come to find out that there are covert types of monitoring going on in my immediate area that number would change.

But thinking about that last sentence leads me to these comments--

CortexVortex wrote:

I would like to hear opinions on how far advanced we all are as various locales concerning the "total police state".

Based on what's obvious to the eyes, I think that if in the US the differing responses coming from folk was averaged between metropolitan areas and suburban and rural areas the number would be a 5, or likely even less. It is what is not obvious to the eye that makes that number unrealistic, though.

I think given the Patriot Act, and given all the anxiety produced by rumored information like 'a total police state takeover is inevitable' and that 'concentration camps are covertly being built in order to herd and contain the populous'...I think we already live in a police state and "caged" without it having to be obvious to the eyes. For this reason I think it's well advanced and an unobvious 9 or 10.

Why should they waste the energy and money to do what can be done with much less effort and cost through a gov't. document and introducing fear inducing ideations into the population?

On a different note, CortexVortex--something I have noticed the past few years, but more so recently, that's like the motorcycle fiasco you exampled is a recent "pack" presence where the police are concerned (this in my relatively tame suburb mind you). It didn't used to be that if there was one police unit that required back up for a basically routine type of call, like a car getting pulled over, that there would be five and six, or more, cars responding, there would be one other car responding. I mean, just how many cops does it take to arrest a drunk driver, or someone driving with a suspended license? There not all bank robbers, right? wink

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
------
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we might as well dance.
------
If you spin around on your chair really fast, things around here will make a lot more sense.

lol
  • From: the mine
  • Registered: 2005-11-15

Re: Poll- 1984: How Close?

Auendove, yes, what I am noticing is highly exaggerated response to minor infractions, police adrenalized to the nth degree, and each incident increasingly used to "showcase" the "power and the might" of law enforcement.

Like you said, it's what we don't see that would certainly increase the rating if we were aware of all the means of surveillance.

In my case it may be way more obvious, over the last 14-16 months, VERY tall and very noticeable camera towers have been put up in the Syracuse region. I would estimate they are 160- 18 feet tall, most of them with 5 cameras atop, and some that just look like lights with a very suspicious looking dome in the middle.

Paid for by none other than the Dept. of Homeland Security.

There are a minimum of 30- 40 of these towers covering a radius of about 5 miles, each camera is capable of zooming and panning 25-35 miles out.

We have been told they are for traffic monitoring, which they are indeed, but they also stated the towers are equipped with radar.

There are likely at least tens of other locations that are not immediately obvious, Syracuse is not a very large city, and the "eyes" we have already seem to be overkill. And more are put up it seems like every day.

Ayahuasca, I am amazed  Leeds only gets a 2 or 3 rating from you, that is good news though.

London I did expect to see at least an 8, so no surprise there.

Maybe it is more the "attitude" than presence, on the part of law enforcement, that creates the air of constant observation for some areas.

Here, however, I can safely say it is BOTH.

And some days feel like a 7, some days feel like 9 or more.

I would like to believe the ultimate police state will not become a reality, but in order for me to think it won't ever happen, I'd hafta sever my own optic nerves.........

"I hate dreaming. because when you want to sleep, you want to sleep. Dreaming is work. Next thing you know I have to build a go-kart with my ex landlord"
-The late Mitch Hedberg
  • Registered: 2004-10-06

Re: Poll- 1984: How Close?

With my cell phone and toll road tag, TPTB can determine with pretty good accuracy my exact location at any given time.  Bad for me if I'm a criminal.  Good for me if I get accused of something I didn't do, though.  Or if a loved one is MIA, they could be located through cell phone triangulation.

smile

Don't think I'm saying that if you have nothing to hide it shouldn't bother you... no, I don't mean that at all.

A couple of years ago I saw lots of cops around all the time and frequent DWI crack-downs in my area.  Since then?  I hardly ever see a cop.

Last week I ran a red light... very carefully, although intentionally... it was 4 am, no traffic and one of those long lights.  LOL!!  I didn't see the cop in front of the Starbucks!!  He stopped me and I was giggling as he approached me.  He started laughing too and let me go.  Didn't even ask for my license.

I was shocked as hell!!

The police who would run the police state are people too, with wives and parents and children.  That thought consoles me somewhat.

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great and would suffice.  ~Robert Frost
  • From: Peru
  • Registered: 2004-08-06

Re: Poll- 1984: How Close?

CortexVortex wrote:

Ayahuasca, I am amazed  Leeds only gets a 2 or 3 rating from you, that is good news though.

Just to clarify. Leeds is the nearest City to me which I would give about a 5 in general.

The village where I actually live is about a 2 or a 3. There's no cameras anywhere in sight apart from a couple of speed cameras, and there's never any police anywhere to be seen, unless they're just driving through.

Join me in Peru to celebrate December 21st 2012 - Visit: http://2012awakeningretreat.com/

Ayahuasca's Website

11 Reply by lyra (edited by lyra 2006-07-14 09:43:59)

  • lyra
  • lyra
  • Naked Emperor Pointer Outer
  • Offline
  • From: my own private idaho
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: Poll- 1984: How Close?

I live in Virginia, and I don't see really any issues here either.  There seems to be a couple of traffic light cameras, but other than that....the police presense is like I've seen in other areas:   Most of the time you can go entire days - if not several weeks - at a time without really encountering cop cars while out driving.  Then on select days you'll see them off and on throughout the day.  But that's it.   They don't seem to be gung ho or anything. 

I used to work with girls from Minsk, Belarus, and after listening to their tales of life back in Belarus all I can say is:  while conspiracy theorist Americans like to think we're so close to a mass lockdown, total surveillance, zero freedom police state, they truly have no basis of comparison.   I couldn't believe what I was hearing with regards to Belarus.  It's the last, truly locked down communist country left in Eastern Europe, ruled by a meglomaniac dictator and policed by the most corrupt form of people imaginable.  One of the girls was telling me that when she first arrived in America, in Williamsberg, Virginia, she went a full five days without seeing even one police officer.   She literally kept track and counted the days!   That's how noticeable and shocking it was for her.  Coming from Belarus where gangs of police thugs roam the streets - day and night - and where there are on average 5 or more police per every one citizen - she was shocked to get here and see such casual leniency.   Hardly any police presense to speak of, and everybody just casually living their lives.   In Belarus she told me that as a female, you DO NOT get caught on the streets after dark by those roaming gang of police thugs.   She didn't have to say what would happen.  Her facial expression and the way she nodded her head like, "You know, you can guess why...." said it all.   I asked her, "Did that ever happen to you?" and she turned away and just gave this barely detectable twitch/nod thing, and just stared off into space.   Didn't directly answer the question.

So, with that basis of comparison, I'd say street cams or no street cams, and random acts of craziness by rogue cops, America still has a long, loooooooooong way to go before we get to the total lockdown, all out crazy police state that we keep hearing about.   I personally think it would take a "problem-reaction-solution" event to launch us into that.   Something so crazy, so out there as to warrant a military presense on the streets.  But even then, they're going to be shorthanded in manpower and will probably only be able to focus their efforts in the major urban areas.   I don't know, just thinking out loud.

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy shit ... what a ride!"  - Anonymous
-----
"I get by with a little help from my (higher density) friends."
-----

lyra's Website

  • From: the mine
  • Registered: 2005-11-15

Re: Poll- 1984: How Close?

Well I must say the average of 5-6 so far is encouraging.

lyra, your tale of the girl from Belarus is, I suppose, alot more common than most of us know.

Eastern Europe has a reputation, for that kind of thing, that does seem warranted!

What worries me is that we can use examples like that to "justify"  how far we have come- and how far we have to go.

I mean, do we have to use extreme examples such as that to feel better about where things seem to be headed?

And don't get me wrong, I do feel better, but never having lived in or been to Belarus, I can only compare here to here (at least the here of the not-too-distant past).

How much decay and authoritarianism are we each willing to tolerate before we begin to wish for another place?

That will, of course, have to be answered according to each person's frame of reference, also resources available for relocation etc.

Thank you all for the replies.......

"I hate dreaming. because when you want to sleep, you want to sleep. Dreaming is work. Next thing you know I have to build a go-kart with my ex landlord"
-The late Mitch Hedberg
  • WizardT
  • Jack Of All Trades
  • Offline
  • From: Louisville, KY
  • Registered: 2006-04-04

Re: Poll- 1984: How Close?

What if TPTB don't have to resourses to create a police state?
What if they only want to crank things up a little to create some fear in the general population?

Wizard's Law #1: Everything is realitive to what YOU have experienced.

If things are getting a little worse for you, then you will assume they are getting worse everywhere.

Also, As an old fart, I can tell you that cops always target young people. They always have. It just comes with the territory, but one day you wake up and realize that they have moved on to those younger and more angry than you.

WizardT

14 Reply by lyra (edited by lyra 2006-07-14 20:15:20)

  • lyra
  • lyra
  • Naked Emperor Pointer Outer
  • Offline
  • From: my own private idaho
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: Poll- 1984: How Close?

CortexVortex wrote:

What worries me is that we can use examples like that to "justify"  how far we have come- and how far we have to go.

I wasn't trying to "justify" anything.  That's not why I shared that story.



CortexVortex wrote:

I mean, do we have to use extreme examples such as that to feel better about where things seem to be headed?

Do I "have" to?  No, I don't "have" to.  But you did ask for comparisons and scale measurements, right?   

I get the impression though maybe my answer wasn't what you wanted to hear....?  That possibly you're looking for all these scale 8 and 9 horror stories to start rolling in.  In truth, Virginia seems to be about a 2.  Sorry to disappoint! 


CortexVortex wrote:

How much decay and authoritarianism are we each willing to tolerate before we begin to wish for another place?

The real issue right now isn't with police state tactics per se, because few places seem to be experiencing issues with that.   The real issue instead is with society-wide controls that are in place.   School.  Taxes.  The DMV.   Laws and regulations.   Etc.  Things designed to get a person's brain trained to the idea of being a submissive child at the mercy of the all-pervasive, all-encompassing authority.  The idea and mindset that we're never fully sovereign, there will always be forces higher than us that rule us.   That prison with invisible bars, so to speak.   That's the real issue right now.   I'm just not so sure they'll ever be able to pull off getting us to a scale 10 police state in the vain of "1984", not unless some super massive event happens to catalyze things to that point.

WizardT had a good point though:   

Wizard wrote:

Wizard's Law #1: Everything is realitive to what YOU have experienced.

If things are getting a little worse for you, then you will assume they are getting worse everywhere.

That's very true.  And because things are so calm and nice and peaceful where I live, I in turn assume it's this way all over!  big_smile  I realize it's not though - certain areas really are pretty bad off, with zealous police, street cams all over, and so on.  And for the people who live in those particular areas, they believe it's that way all over the country, and that the country as a whole is ***this close*** to becoming all out police state madness.  Which it's not.  It's all relative to where you live.


WizardT wrote:

Also, As an old fart, I can tell you that cops always target young people. They always have. It just comes with the territory, but one day you wake up and realize that they have moved on to those younger and more angry than you.

That's true too.  And in all honesty, I can't be a police basher, because I've seen both sides of the coin with that one.  I've seen good cops, and bad cops.  I've been pulled over driving a car with no insurance, expired registration........and a stole registration sticker on my license plate.  wink  And was let go.   I've been pulled over for speeding....and was let go.  I mean, I have all these stories of cops being very cool, lax, and lenient.   But then again, I'm a white girl.  Conversely, young guys of color are consistently harassed in places like SoCal.   That's a known fact.   It's all relative to not only where you live...but what you look like, unfortunately.   

And if/when we do arrive at either a full police state or even semi-police state, keep in mind - it's going to be all relative.   To the area where you live, the color of your skin, whether you're young or old, male or female, and how much charm you have.  Bottom line.  Exactly as it works right now.   That's the way it is, whether some like to hear it or not.  The only difference is, in a full on future police state situation there will just be more police to contend with.  That's all.

Anyway, that's my four cents of rambling!   I'll be quiet now....

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy shit ... what a ride!"  - Anonymous
-----
"I get by with a little help from my (higher density) friends."
-----

lyra's Website

  • From: the mine
  • Registered: 2005-11-15

Re: Poll- 1984: How Close?

Wizard, I'm not all that young, nor am I angry.

I was not hoping for high numbers, either.

I see what I see, no matter how much I try not to think about it.

For that matter, I am not much of a believer in the "if I don't focus on it, it doesn't exist" mentality.

Lots of crap has happened before I was even around, so I am fairly sure it was not my doing.

I also do not assume it's an 8 or 9 everywhere, if I did there would have been no good reason for having this comparison, no?

lyra, I guess part of my point, even though I failed to mention it, is that not always is an escalation in authority due to a "planned" event.

Thay will also take random, circumstantial scenarios to notch things up, and the more the better, as far as they are concerned. JMO....

The catalyst you speak of can seem somewhat inocuous, broadly speaking.

Not disappointed at all to see low numbers, it only reinforces for me that I am living in the wrong place!

I have known, and dealt with police with real integrity, I have also seen the other side of that coin, to an extreme.

Abuses of power I tend to notice.
Overreaction to petty crimes I tend to notice.

That's all, I am not trying to color anyone's opinions because of things I have observed, or because of my own opinions. Only wanted a little "hard data", dare I say, statistics.......eeek!

And, thanks again for the input, it has changed my perception for the better.

I do not wish to see the propaganda and fearmongering be successful, never have. And I am glad to see the tentacles have not slithered in to any real effect in some other areas.

A good thing, yes!

"I hate dreaming. because when you want to sleep, you want to sleep. Dreaming is work. Next thing you know I have to build a go-kart with my ex landlord"
-The late Mitch Hedberg