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Noble Realms → General Discussion → "People of the Lie"
Have you read this book by M.Scott Peck? Isn't an OP just one of these people trapped in the abyss of their own repressed and ignored conscience?
Have you read this book by M.Scott Peck?
Yes, I read the book many years ago. It blew me away when I'd read it, how people could be so heartless. I was shocked by its content. I've suggested it to others quite a few times...with the disclaimer to be aware that it may disturb them, like turn their stomachs. As it would be, I just looked at it on my bookshelf today trying to decide if it was one of those books I could weed out and get rid of before I move. I decided to keep it. It's a very powerful book. I'd rather have it on hand to pass onto another if the need arises.
Isn't an OP just one of these people trapped in the abyss of their own repressed and ignored conscience?
Since it's been at least 10 yrs since I've read the book (myself not remembering the fine details, like if he may've actually referred to them as soulless) and I don't get into talking about OPs too much, but maybe Peck just didn't know there was a noted term for them, other than "evil humans," such as an OP designation exists now. The book was, after all, written in 1983. I don't even know that Organic Portals is a term that is widely used, but I don't think so. I also think that an M.D. who is, and would expect to remain, a nationwide best seller is not going to come right out and claim that there are humans who live among us that simply have no soul, and that this would explain their behavior.
For those who've not seen the book I think it's important to note that the full name of the book is "People of The Lie...The Hope For Healing Human Evil." The letter "i" in "Healing" is printed as a pitchfork on the cover of the book.
EDIT--After going to amazon I see that the newer edition of the book doesn't have the pitch fork in it like the older edition. Interesting.
"People of the Lie" was the first book to open my eyes to the possibility that there were some inhuman, consciousless people out there who weren't locked up but were instead walking among us. The story of the parents who gave their son a gun for his birthday which his brother had recently used to kill himself was particularly enlightening and disturbing.
The story of the parents who gave their son a gun for his birthday which his brother had recently used to kill himself was particularly enlightening and disturbing.
Yeah, that story was the most mind blowing for me. I just would never have imagined real, live parents who could be so cruel...but, "real, live" would be the crux of the difference between just
...people trapped in the abyss of their own repressed and ignored conscience...
and the OP theory.
EDIT--I just realized my faux pas here 
. The theory about OPs, of course, doesn't include humans that lack being real or being alive. I'm going to leave it the way it is, but please know it's meant as a metaphor.
About 5% of society are sociopaths. The upper 5% of society in economic terms have sociopathic tendencies and are amoungst those who would be defined as "having no conscience". Those who get caught doing illegal activities are usually NOT the most "evil" of the sociopaths, they may have done the most violent of the crimes, but they are not the most cunning. Those who make the decisions are usually the most skilled; these are the calculating and manipulative "People of the Lie".
If you think about it, the common criminal is NOT such a good liar. This is a talent of the "image", the "pretense" people. Dr. Peck talks about the "pretense" and the evil which covertly hides behind the mask of decency and perfection. Those who do the most evil do it behind the public scenes. The "People of the Lie" do their most evil in destroying the SPIRIT in others in order to gain the control that is more important than money, to them. Money is a tool. Control is their need; their security. Security is an addiction.
I am a skilled carpenter. I have worked often in the homes of these people. I consider my journey that of a "churchmouse"; undetected and observant. For some obvious reasons to myself I do resemble a desired behavior to these people, or should I say I may appear to them as "workable". There is a fine line between the pretense of integrity and the real deal. In constrruction, it is common to hear the phrase, "The rich just think different". This is a clue to the cunningness and pretense of those who are subtly manipulative, yet hiding behind a wonderful persona of "impeccable image".
My purpose in life is to serve. To those who are skilled at "taking" they often mistake my graciously serving as a ploy to "victimize"; I believe this is do to their suspiciousness. In the end, I deliver what I promise--and a bit more. The "People of the Lie" have no intention to give more than they receive. I take great fulfillment in making people happier. A sociopath will play you long enough to get the personal satisfaction of "winning". I let people win.
"In the end the winner will be the loser"
~~carefulcarpenter
About 5% of society are sociopaths. The upper 5% have sociopathic tendencies and are amoungst those who would be defined as "having no conscience".
Given this, I have a further generalized question. The question is not directed at you in particular, titmouse_, but rather it is a curious question.
Could/should "having no conscience" be equated with having no soul?
As I can't even answer my own question, nor do I care to worry about it too much, I suppose it's more of a rhetorical or thought provoking question.
I'm like you titmouse_, I also enjoy bringing joy to others. I also consider myself to be living my life with one of my personal purposes as being of service, even if it is at times just as simple as bringing a smile to another's face.
Could/should "having no conscience" be equated with having no soul?
As I can't even answer my own question, nor do I care to worry about it too much, I suppose it's more of a rhetorical or thought provoking question.
I'm like you titmouse_, I also enjoy bringing joy to others. I also consider myself to be living my life with one of my personal purposes as being of service, even if it is at times just as simple as bringing a smile to another's face.
Interesting topic, and timely. Yesterday, my fiance was discussing his errant past as a juvenile delinquent. He openly stated that he was, in fact, a sociopath, and had to adhere to a strict moral code (Bushido, way of the warrior), in order to develop a structure for conscience. He now considers himself a reformed sociopath, and says that eventually the code "took,' and he has a fully developed conscience. That's why he now works with juvenile delenquents as a probation officer, and he takes a special interest in gangs. He says it's because they are culturally created sociopaths, and their development of a conscience has been thwarted by their involvement with gangs. Since he knows there is a road back from that, he wants to work with them.
Does he have a soul? I think so. But I will tell you this-- he can't contact the godforce within himself. He laments that, and has taken almost every road you can think of to try to contact his spiritual side, all to no avail. He has chanted for hours with Hare Krishnas, taken peyote at a sweat lodge, meditated, etc. All this because he knows he doesn't have that connection and he misses it.
Edited because I wrote conscious for conscience every time!
titmouse_ wrote:About 5% of society are sociopaths. The upper 5% have sociopathic tendencies and are amoungst those who would be defined as "having no conscience".
Given this, I have a further generalized question. The question is not directed at you in particular, titmouse_, but rather it is a curious question.
Could/should "having no conscience" be equated with having no soul?
As I can't even answer my own question, nor do I care to worry about it too much, I suppose it's more of a rhetorical or thought provoking question.
I'm like you titmouse_, I also enjoy bringing joy to others. I also consider myself to be living my life with one of my personal purposes as being of service, even if it is at times just as simple as bringing a smile to another's face.
To answer your question--soul is a connection the personal unconscious has with the universal soul. Synchronicity is empirical evidence of this multi-dimensional reality beyond the conscious mind. I believe a person who has no conscience is simply a person who does not have an internal dialog with the deeper self. This can come from a psychological or genetic disconnect with the inner voice; maybe through early developmental impairments, trama, or simply genetics. From other reading I found that sociopathic behavior can run in families--this may be how generation after generation a family produces leaders and high social achievers, or criminals. The public at large does prefer to be "lied to"-- when it comes right down to the crux of the issue.
I believe we are all connected to the universal soul, or unus mundus. Some have lost their communication with this unconscious psyche and society rewards these people because we all need a sociopath once in awhile to do our dirty deeds. Americans are conditioned to take the path of convenience and security. The sociopath gives us what we ask for. I cannot tell you how many times I discovered that a customer prefered a lie over the truth I handed them. People love their egos stroked. They want to be desired and envied for the material gains they have aquired. I live such a simple life creating the beauty, and living in the mountains, that I forget city people want validation for things like: their house, their cars, their image, their lifestyle. The reality is-- like Donald Trump once said when he wanted to get back at his critics--he said, "Life at the top isn't what it's cracked up to be".
Hang in there and be grateful that you have so much to give. Imagine how painful it is for a sociopath to gain so much without giving the effort that returns such great satisfaction-- yet has so little pleasure that comes through the connection with the soul.
"Before a person can lie to the world, they must first lie to themselves"
~~carefulcarpenter
Auendove wrote:Could/should "having no conscience" be equated with having no soul?
As I can't even answer my own question, nor do I care to worry about it too much, I suppose it's more of a rhetorical or thought provoking question.
I'm like you titmouse_, I also enjoy bringing joy to others. I also consider myself to be living my life with one of my personal purposes as being of service, even if it is at times just as simple as bringing a smile to another's face.
Interesting topic, and timely. Yesterday, my fiance was discussing his errant past as a juvenile delinquent. He openly stated that he was, in fact, a sociopath, and had to adhere to a strict moral code (Bushido, way of the warrior), in order to develop a structure for conscience. He now considers himself a reformed sociopath, and says that eventually the code "took,' and he has a fully developed conscience. That's why he now works with juvenile delenquents as a probation officer, and he takes a special interest in gangs. He says it's because they are culturally created sociopaths, and their development of a conscience has been thwarted by their involvement with gangs. Since he knows there is a road back from that, he wants to work with them.
Does he have a soul? I think so. But I will tell you this-- he can't contact the godforce within himself. He laments that, and has taken almost every road you can think of to try to contact his spiritual side, all to no avail. He has chanted for hours with Hare Krishnas, taken peyote at a sweat lodge, meditated, etc. All this because he knows he doesn't have that connection and he misses it.
Edited because I wrote conscious for conscience every time!
This is interesting. Maybe this is how the Bible, or Koran, etc. is used to discipline and format the mind so that a person can develope a conscience and therefore connect to the unus mundus, therefore enabling them to individuate and eventually, potentially know their self.
"Little white lies". This was one of the most effective points Dr. Peck made. I see it so often in those people who want to see themselves as a "good person". Small conveniences to cover those insignificant imperfections in character... or just maybe, the tip of the iceberg?
Anecdotal story: subjective reality.
A couple of friends from the coffee shop I frequent have done councelling and corporate training. They have been involved with mainstream thinking and standards for personal success. Recently when my wife and I were not communicating well , I asked for some free advice. I mentioned to them that I had never lied to my wife, and I avoid any "little white lies" because she is a sharp lady and will call me on them, anyway. She learned how to "word" things years ago growing up in a Navy family. She herself has learned the art of "little white lying" from her mother. My wife refuses to follow her training, although she worked for the Marriot Corp and knows how to effectively speak to the public (am I the public?) anyway.....
The two professionals, when asked about telling the truth to my wife, both said, "You can't tell your wife the truth... it can hurt people you know?"
"It's just the way things are."
I said, "I have never consciously lied to her and I have always felt our marriage was based on trust. Isn't lying, even to save them heart-ache, breaking the trust?"
They responded, "People don't want the blunt truth. Most people prefer to be lied to. Even your wife wants you to tell her what she wants to hear. If you want to get along with her you had better not hurt her."
Their advice backfired. When I finally communicated openly with her she admitted that the truth hurt for awhile, but that she could always count on me to tell her the truth. She said these guys were typical men and the companies she has worked for expects people to lie.
As a carpenter I have the luxury of being true to myself. Now I have a better understanding of the "way things are".
Is a person a truly spiritually evolved if they tell "little white lies"?
Have a book recommendation, but didn't want to start a whole brand new thread for it. I figured this was a good thread to mention it in, since it's closely related. But if you're somebody who read and got something out of "People of the Lie" then the book that I just found today might be of interest to you. It's called "Toxic Parents - Overcoming Their Hurtful Legacy and Reclaiming Your Life" by Dr. Susan Forward. "People of the Lie" dealt with crazy, psychopathic parents who lacked empathy and behaved in baffling, inappropriate ways, and this book does as well. Drawing upon case histories from her clients, Dr. Forward gets into verbal/emotional, physical and sexual abuse at the hands of toxic (often times, psycho and sociopathic) parents and what to do about it all. The book is riddled with personal case examples for every type of situation she outlines. If you're somebody who had nutso parents (lyra raises her hand and waves it around 
) then this might be a good book to look at. She's blunt and doesn't mix words. I didn't go looking for this book, as I'm NOT one to go seeking out "Self Help" psychology "I'm an adult victim" books. They rub me the wrong way and I've always been one of those independent people who's like, "I'll fix myself, dammit. I don't need your silly book, so bug off." haha But I just happened to cross paths with it due to spontaneously volunteering for the afternoon at our local metaphysical bookshop, helping them to sort through and organize/categorize hundreds+ of books that were donated for prisoner inmates. Long story there 
but yeah, the lady who runs the shop told us that if we happen to see any books that we like, feel free to take them. I saw this title screaming at me from the shelf "TOXIC PARENTS" and I smiled to myself and thought, "I'm DEFINITELY checking that book out!" haha Come to find out, this is the book where a particular quote about verbal/emotional abuse comes from that I remembered reading in high school in CT, which affected me greatly at the time because of stuff that was happening. I'd never seen anybody talking about this form of abuse, or the effects it has, but yet here somebody was talking about it. "If I had to choose between physical and verbal abuse, I'd take a beating anytime. You can see the marks, so at least people feel sorry for you. With the verbal stuff, it just makes you crazy. The wounds are invisible. Nobody cares. Real bruises heal a hell of a lot faster than insults." That quote stuck with me for years, but I never realized the source of where it was excerpted from. Turns out it's from this book, copyright 1989.
Anyway, thought I'd pass along the tip. It's a good read, might be beneficial for people who've gone through negative stuff to realize that there are others out there who've gone through the crap too. I don't know why exactly, but just by reading other crazy stories that were right on par to my own situation somehow really helped to diffuse strong emotions that were kicking around in my head. Probably because she gets into very specific details that matched my situation exactly, but which I've never really come across before. She doesn't just discuss the big, dramatic crazy forms of abuse we all hear about, she also gets into the weirdo, more subtle stuff that fills in the cracks. So, passing it along....
I bumped this to compliment the current thread "Who do you trust?"
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