Topic: H-2-O specs...

Hi All -

I'm having a debate with a friend about water.  Reverse Osmosis (RO), is, by all accounts that I've seen, the purest and most deliberate purification process for water filtration.  Apparently, and I'm going on some years-old Chemistry and Biology here, RO is (like dialysis) more a process of "taking water molecules out of a water solution" rather than "particles in the solution out of the water". Basically, going from a lower concentration of H2O to a higher concentration of H2O.

Anyway, my friend is arguing that, especially with natural spring water and rain water, you don't want to filter out the minerals and metals found naturally.  He says filtering tap water is okay with just a charcoal filter, but if one intends to filter spring water, they should just filter heavy particles of sediment and not the metals / minerals.

Anyone know what RO really does, and when it is best to use this method and when not?  And what about spring water?  Should one run spring water through RO?  And does that take out naturally occurring minerals and metals which are good for the body?

Also, what about adding these things to water after the RO process?  Is this wise?

Re: H-2-O specs...

I don't know, but I'd be curious to find out as I've recently started paying more attention to the bottled water I drink.  Before I was content with our local Zephyrhills spring water, but now, I've moved on to Fiji water and another one called Trinity.   Fiji is from an aquafer, and contains disolved minerals and bicarbonates, with a pH of about 7.5, which is good.   Trinity is from a source over 2 miles down in the earth, in Idaho, and has a really high pH of over 9, which turns my pH strips a nice indigo color.   So, it's good for alkalizing your body, but I still wonder if these naturally occuring minerals are good over the longterm.  I read so many conflicting things, some sources which recommend only bottled spring water like Fiji, others that say steamed distilled, or reverse osmosis.  To top it off, I give my cat bottled water, and I'm not sure which one I should be giving her.  The Zephyrhills "spring" water with the pH of about 6.2, and which seems questionable in general, or something more "pure" but which has a high mineral content, and might cause damage to her.  I don't know cat anatomy, so I have NO idea.   I'm confused!!

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy shit ... what a ride!"  - Anonymous
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"I get by with a little help from my (higher density) friends."
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Re: H-2-O specs...

Cameron, here's what I've found out from doing some research through search engines.

RO pressurizes water against a membrane with pores so small only water molecules can pass through - the rest, consisting of the rejected particles and waste water is flushed away. [This means, the more impure your source water, the more water is wasted to make RO water. For every one gallon of RO water made, two gallons of tap water are flushed away. That's just the way the system works.]

Does it remove minerals and metals? Yes, though pre-filters are used to take these out before they get to the osmosis membrane, otherwise the membrane will clog more quickly.

An RO system takes out chlorine, fluoride, minerals, metals, and some microorganisms. The difference with steam distilled water is that the latter is even purer but tastes flat due to the free oxygen having been boiled out of it.

If you make RO water, and add your own minerals - that should work. I think adding minerals to distilled water would be good too, other than potential problems with oxygen levels and pH. 

You may not know what minerals and metals are in natural water, even spring water. There could be lead, mercury, fluorite, etc... and rain water can contain sulfuric acid and so on. Leaving these in would not be good, obviously.

But what these technologies don't account for are the effects upon the memory and crystal/microcluster structure of water. For example, steam distillation will erase the homeopathic memory of water, the vibrations it carries from the processing it's been put through.

RO distillation may filter out the larger water crystals only letting smaller malformed ones through. This article discusses how pure water contains six sided crystals, but RO water lets through mostly five side (malformed) crystals due to their smaller size. It says that reverse osmosis is an unnatural process because in nature osmosis is the standard process.

Then we have Viktor Schauberger's view on water. Basically he said that water exposed to turbulent or explosive motion (meaning force pushing water forward as in turbines and pumping systems) infuses bad energy into the water, or at least disrupts its capacity to contain good vital energy. He then explained how water that is instead given an implosive or swirling motion, as in a vortex, restores it to its pristine vibrational state.

If I had to make an ideal water system, I would use steam distilled water, add some minerals, and put it through a funnel device to swirl the water into an imploding vortex, much like water goes down a drain in a vortex shape except in this case it would be dumped into a container.

Schauberger created a device that would do just this, except once the water comes out form the bottom it is carried back up to the top and into the vortex again, thus it loops through the vortex many times - each time becoming a bit colder, suggesting the vortex motion has negentropic effects. He says that nature uses this process anyway, that mountain spring water tastes so good because the water swirls in vortices naturally due to the meanderings and pockets in the stream, and this is a motion that adds life to the water.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

Re: H-2-O specs...

Thanks for the info -

If the RO process produces such excess in by-product, it seems suitable in 1 of 2 systems.

If in line with a residential source, it could be used to filter enough water for drinking and possibly cooking.  The excess could then be used as cleaning and gardens.  But what about bathing?  I don't know if I would want to filter a line-fed source, thereby creating a more concentrated 'dirty' water, with which to use for bathing.

Is it possible to filter a line-fed system enough to supply drinking, bathing, and cooking water?  Probably not cost effective with an RO system.

More practically, perhaps a spring/rain fed system could be RO filtered purely for cooking/drinking.  Then, the typical (and more reliable - although maybe not in the not-so-long term) pipe-based water could be filtered more 'economically' with a charcoal or with some other more conventional method.  This for bathing, garden, cleaning.

Bathing seems the biggest consumer of water which comes in contact with the body.  [i]Do we drink more water than we use to bath with[i]?  I consume roughly 3-4 quartz of water in a day, and probably 6-7 including what's used for cooking.

The order of importance, by way of purity, if we were to assign such a quality, for water consumption might be:

1)  Drinking
2)  Cooking
3)  Bathing
4)  Plants (potted) and Animals
5)  Cleaning
6)  Outside (gardening)

That which comes in contact with the body (directly):

- Drinking
- Cooking
- Bathing

As far a spring-fed source, I would consider RO a better form of filtration than SD (Steam Distillation).  This for the reason mentioned above -- water does retain a certain memory or vibrational memory which can be both beneficial and detrimental, depending of what the memory is.  Water traveling miles through the Earth, especially inside mountain rock and stone, takes on an strongly positive quality.  It can be thought of as more in alignment with the natural biological principle of life/growth.

Pipe-fed (and perhaps Well fed) may be better suited for SD, however.  Who knows what's in it - and it seems (per the above article) to be more efficient over time, which would be better for some high-consumption needs.

5 (edited by visavis 2006-04-19 10:41:16)

Re: H-2-O specs...

A quick note about your Brita filter.  I always naively assumed that it takes out at least *some* fluoride.  It actually does not remove ANY fluoride at all.  I don't know why I didn't check this till yesterday:

http://www.brita.com.au/help/frequently_asked_questions

On a related subject, about one month ago I met a man who other said he was 99 years old.  The thing was, he looked literally 30 years younger.  I approached him and we started a nice conversation.  I asked him "what's your secret" to staying so young?  He said two things:
1) He never ate breakfast
2) He never drank water unless it was boiled.

I thought that both were pretty interesting!


PS - I can't seem to locate the multi-page thread from several months ago that discussed and reviewed experiences with water filters in detail, including the mention of filters using "crystal" technology.  Anyone help me out?

"The unknown does not incite fear, but dependence on the known does." - J. Krishnamurti

Re: H-2-O specs...

montalk wrote:

If you make RO water, and add your own minerals - that should work. I think adding minerals to distilled water would be good too, other than potential problems with oxygen levels and pH.

Thats what i do with distilled water just a quarter of a teaspoon of himalayan salt crystals to every 4 litres to get 90 odd ionic absorabable trace elements/minerals. The dissolved crystals may also have some influence on the energy or put some essence into the water as its was "blank" before.

Its not like we are fractions of the whole but rather versions of the whole.

7 (edited by tenetnosce 2006-04-19 12:06:44)

Re: H-2-O specs...

Water is definitely a tough debate. . here are some of my thoughts.

For washing, showering, etc., the best thing is to get an RO filtration system and water softener.  Hard water is more difficult to wash with, and you have to use more soap, etc.  Also it's probably not the best idea in the world to be inhaling chlorinated / fluorinated water vapor in your shower.  Is it going to kill you?  Probably not.  Halogenated water also breaks down the fabric in your clothes, the enamel on your teeth, and pretty much anything else it comes in contact with.

Drinking water is a whole different debate.   Bottled brands such as Fiji, Trinity, and Voss tend to be the best, but are also the most expensive.  It is definitely better for the water to be more alkaline, and naturally occurring minerals in the water are good for you.  Then again, water isn't exactly the main source of minerals in the diet.

One thing which I personally wouldn't do is drink straight distilled water.  It is superb if you are using it to make various forms of extractions (like coffee or tea), however it is for the same reason that I recommend against drinking it straight. 

The issue is the osmotic pressure, which is determined by the various substances which are dissolved in the water, as well as their concentrations.  If you took an RO membrane and put regular water on one side, and distilled water on the other, the distilled water would move across the membrane according to the chemical gradient set up by the difference in osmotic pressure between the two compartments. 

The reason I suggest against drinking distilled water is because the body does not work like an RO system.  Water is, for the most part, moved passively as a result of ion pumps in the cell membranes.  Therefore if you were to inject distilled water into the bloodstream, the result would be a movement of minerals out from the cells into the blood, rather than the other way around.  It is a poor hydrater and will, over the long term, result in demineralization of the bones, and extra strain on the kidneys.

There are a few locations, the lower large intestine being the most notable, where there are water pumps, however these are used when it is necessary to get large amounts of water out of the body, usually when an infective agent has unhealthily populated the colon.

That being said, I can think of two situations where you may want to drink distilled water.  One is if you are drinking it in moderate amounts (<8 oz) along with a high carb or protein meal.  The water will help to activate hydrolytic enzymes in the gut and also help to extract some minerals out of the food.  Then again, a highly alkalinized spring water, like Trinity, may work even better.  I am not aware of any research comparing the two.

The other case is if you are engaging in a short term (<3 days) detox program, but only if you make sure to follow up the program with a course of a high-potency mineral supplement to help replenish the mineral loss sustained during the detox process.

If are eating a meal that is high in fat, the best thing to drink in terms of solubizing the nutrients would actually be a glass (or two smile) of red wine.  Though a pint of Guinness goes much better with a plate of wings, and it can double as a reasonably nutritious breakfast in a pinch!

The best choice, in my opinion, for straight drinking water would be a form of structured water, such as Penta, AquaDraat, or Angel Fire.  Angel Fire http://angelfirewater.com/ is currently my fav as it is alkaline spring water, and is oxygenated as well as structured.  The company has also done some preliminary research using a Bio-Electrical Impedance Analyzer (BIA) which indicates that their form of water is more effective at cell hydration then regular spring water.

Again, not the cheapest thing around, but then again, you don't need to drink as much of it.  It takes me several hours to put down a liter of that stuff when I could drink a liter of regular water in minutes.

It is not for us to understand love, but simply to make space for it.

Re: H-2-O specs...

tenetnosce wrote:

One thing which I personally wouldn't do is drink straight distilled water.

Would boiled water effectively be the same as distilled water... IE: 'blank'?

"The unknown does not incite fear, but dependence on the known does." - J. Krishnamurti

9 (edited by tenetnosce 2006-04-19 14:10:08)

Re: H-2-O specs...

visavis wrote:
tenetnosce wrote:

One thing which I personally wouldn't do is drink straight distilled water.

Would boiled water effectively be the same as distilled water... IE: 'blank'?

Boiling water does not remove dissolved solids, so actually the longer you boil water, the higher the osmolarity, since you are losing solvent in the form of water vapor.

To my awareness, the only advantages of boiling water are:

1:  To kill any pathogenic organisms that may be present in the water.

2.  To increase the solubility of some constituent that you wish to extract in the water.

It is not for us to understand love, but simply to make space for it.

Re: H-2-O specs...

Hmm.  I wonder then what the old man was gaining by boiling his water?  Maybe the placebo effect?  Maybe spiritual strength gained solely through discipline?

"The unknown does not incite fear, but dependence on the known does." - J. Krishnamurti

Re: H-2-O specs...

visavis wrote:

Hmm.  I wonder then what the old man was gaining by boiling his water?  Maybe the placebo effect?  Maybe spiritual strength gained solely through discipline?

What old man?

It is not for us to understand love, but simply to make space for it.

Re: H-2-O specs...

Hi tenetescoe the info going round that distilled water leaches minerals from the body is disputed here http://www.durastill.com/myths.html
I drank the stuff for ten years so without ever getting sick or ill so i am inclined to believe it but i do add minerals to it these days and bubble ozone through to tackle the low oxygen levels.
It certainly does act as a magnet to inorganic minerals though.

Its not like we are fractions of the whole but rather versions of the whole.

Re: H-2-O specs...

tenetnosce wrote:

What old man?

visavis wrote:

On a related subject, about one month ago I met a man who other said he was 99 years old.  The thing was, he looked literally 30 years younger.  I approached him and we started a nice conversation.  I asked him "what's your secret" to staying so young?  He said two things:
1) He never ate breakfast
2) He never drank water unless it was boiled.

"The unknown does not incite fear, but dependence on the known does." - J. Krishnamurti

Re: H-2-O specs...

I bought a 5-gal RO water at Lowe's Saturday that has added minerals, but it was $12.99.  Wouldn't have bought it if I'd realized that!  I normally just use distilled and maybe I haven't had any problems because I take supplements that contain minerals.

15 (edited by tenetnosce 2006-04-20 13:43:05)

Re: H-2-O specs...

Barefoot Doc wrote:

Hi tenetescoe the info going round that distilled water leaches minerals from the body is disputed here http://www.durastill.com/myths.html
I drank the stuff for ten years so without ever getting sick or ill so i am inclined to believe it but i do add minerals to it these days and bubble ozone through to tackle the low oxygen levels.
It certainly does act as a magnet to inorganic minerals though.

"Distilled water has an inherent quality. Acting almost like a magnet, it picks up rejected, discarded, and unusable minerals and, assisted by the blood and the lymph, carries them to the lungs and kidneys for elimination from the body. The statement that distilled water leaches minerals from the body has no basis in fact. It doesn't leach out minerals that have become part of the cell structure. It can't and won't. It collects only minerals that have already been rejected or excreted by the cells...To suggest that distilled water takes up minerals from foods so that the body derives no benefit from them is absurd."

Stating that there is no evidence to refute a claim does not prove that the claim is true, especially if it isn't backed with a current model of science which supports the claim as a valid hypothesis.

I could be wrong; it's been known to occur from time to time.  However taker a closer look at the quote.  First it says that it acts "like a magnet" to pick up "unusable minerals" and then says in the very next sentence that the statement that distilled water leaches minerals has "no basis in fact".

Distilled water will pick up anything.  It has no intelligence to recognize what is usuable and unusable to the body.  It may not take out minerals that are already incorporated into cell structure, however it will definitely interfere with the absorption of minerals by the cells and the excretion of minerals that are solubized in the cytoplasm.

Anything which acts to reduce the osmotic pressure of the blood beyond optimal range will have the same effect.  This is basic biochemistry.  When the osmotic pressure gets too low, the kidneys will excrete water in order to restore the balance.  Kidneys move water by directing the flow of ions, most notably the macrominerals sodium and potassium, to create a osmotic gradient that gradually draws water out of the bloodstream.  Therefore, minerals are lost every time the osmotic pressure is suboptimal, in order to promote the excretion of water.

Therefore it is ideal to drink water that is already within the limits of the osmotic pressure, and also pH, of the blood in order to reduce the amount of work the body would otherwise need to do to restore the proper balance.

Proponents of various health agents frequently like to assign some magical property to them granting the power to confer unlimited health benefits with absolutely no negative effects.

In the above quote they say how distilled water helps to pick up waste from the lymph, as if you drink it and it magically appears in your lymphatic system to pick up toxins.  When you drink water it is absorbed through the intestines into the blood.  Then it travels over to the liver and the kidneys.  Then it enters the general circulation, finally heading over to the lymphatic system.  By the time that droplet of water gets to the lymphatic system it has already solubized something else it has picked up along the way.

Actually, now that I think about it, if the osmotic pressure of the blood is suboptimal, the immediate effect would be to divert blood flow away from the general circulation and toward the kidneys by increasing the pressure in arteries leaving the renal system.  This would result in a lowering of the function of the lymphatic system, as it too, requires a pressure differential to operate properly. 

I can rationalize advising the use of straight distilled water in a pulse fashion with a liver detoxifying agent, or concomitant with a chelating agent.  I just don't see the scientific basis for making a claim that it assists in lymphatic drainage.  There of course, may be some facts that I am not aware of.

But anyhow, I'm not saying distilled water is dangerous.  Especially to somebody who regularly gets an appropriate amount of minerals in their diet.  It's just not my top choice.  Certainly better than Diet Coke!

It is not for us to understand love, but simply to make space for it.