Topic: Is selfishness the fundamental engine of destructiveness?

Today I had this thought: that people act destructively less because they are ignorant of the destructiveness of their actions, but more because they believe they can stem off the destructive effects of their actions.

If that's even 51% true, what does that mean?

Philosophies like Buddhism name ignorance as the prime cause of pain and destructive behaviors.  And I think that sounds sound, but as I think thoroughly about my own history of destructive behaviors and the histories of others, ignorance doesn't explain it.

When I've done wrong I knew it was wrong.  I wasn't ignorant.  I couldn't necessarily clairvoyantly see the tiny Butterfly effects of my choice, but I could definitely see the potential, immediate as well as distant negative consequences.  I still did the wrong because I believed I could dodge the bullets.

You could still argue that it was selfishness driving me since, while I believed I could dodge the hurt, I wasn't exactly concerned with saving others from hurt.

Even if selfishness is the fundamental engine of destructiveness, I still think this is worth considering: that there sometimes exists an insane conviction of invulnerability that helps decide upon a negative path.

I've never studied black magic, but from reading about it I glean that black magicians don't believe that their spells won't bend back upon them--but they believe there are ways AROUND magical backlash.

Right now there's a Ponzi (pyramid) scheme collapsing in the US called "12 Daily Pro."  The president of the company will probably be jailed or heavily fined.  She promised investors 12% interest per day, but it appears that that figure was based only upon the pyramid scheme and that those at the top were making big bucks while the newer recruits were being bilked.  Mathematically it was doomed to fail, I understand.  But it could run for a while.  And while it ran, the president deposited huge amounts of money into her personal bank account and allegedly benefitted from the interest.   

Did she not understand that it was mathematically doomed to fail (if that is true)?  Or did she believe she could stem off the collapse by recruiting more and more people at the bottom?  Did she know it would collapse and selfishly decide to bilk others, suffer a penalty, but ultimately profit?

Selfishness may underlie, or be beside, this issue, but still it is interesting.  Selfishness may be the unconscious component for most here, and the conviction of invulnerability may be the conscious component. 

But where does it arise from?  How do you become convinced that you can escape consequences?  ...If you're at the top of a pyramid, commanding an army below you, then there you go--an army of protectors could convince you.  But this isn't a pattern that crops up only in the top member of top-down systems; it crops up in quite ordinary people.

You can't change a tiger's stripes,
but you can avoid its teeth.

2 (edited by thook 2006-03-01 11:34:57)

Re: Is selfishness the fundamental engine of destructiveness?

Ignorance doesn't mean not knowing, it means "ingore-ance". It is selfish to ignore if you consider what affects one affects all. Ripples. I don't know why we ignore, just that at times we choose to. Hmmm.... a good universal question. Denial...it hurts because something is destroyed in the process. What were we thinking?

" Then it was, then again it will be. And though the course may change sometimes rivers always reach the sea." Robert Plant

Re: Is selfishness the fundamental engine of destructiveness?

thook wrote:

Ignorance doesn't mean not knowing, it means "ingore-ance"

Right, there is an ignorance of unawareness, and an ignorance of refusing to investigate.  Yet, paths with a potential negative backlash are still chosen by people who DO attend to the consequences for themselves and others.

In fact, it's probably non-ignorance that allows people to get away with their destructive behaviors for so long.

Ever see the movie "Suspect Zero?"  In it there's a serial killer who is very successful because he understands that police catch serial killers by analyzing their patterns.  So the killer kills randomly on purpose and doesn't do anything ritually.

You can't change a tiger's stripes,
but you can avoid its teeth.

Re: Is selfishness the fundamental engine of destructiveness?

dreamosis wrote:

Ever see the movie "Suspect Zero?"  In it there's a serial killer who is very successful because he understands that police catch serial killers by analyzing their patterns.  So the killer kills randomly on purpose and doesn't do anything ritually.

Dreamosis,

I believe there was a pattern.  The guy was killing child molestors, pedophiles if I believe correctly.

Regards,

Lee

Re: Is selfishness the fundamental engine of destructiveness?

Heh.

I think most people do wrong because they believe they can get away with it, and because they haven't trained themselves to be restrained by their compassion. I think it's amusing to consider what these people would think if someone told them that their entire life was not only recorded down to the most intimate personal thoughts, and that the purpose was to create a test to see what they'd do if they're given the love and responsibility of a REAL life, especially considering that there is nothing you can do to someone else that is not merely an admission of what you'd have done to yourself under different circumstances.

Re: Is selfishness the fundamental engine of destructiveness?

Okay, I see what you mean. Sorry, I didn't quite understand before.
People think they can get away with something because of the illusion of time. But, then, it's possible one chooses a path with potential negative backlash to truly understand what's good for them and WHY! Just a thought.....

" Then it was, then again it will be. And though the course may change sometimes rivers always reach the sea." Robert Plant

Re: Is selfishness the fundamental engine of destructiveness?

thook wrote:

Okay, I see what you mean. Sorry, I didn't quite understand before.
People think they can get away with something because of the illusion of time. But, then, it's possible one chooses a path with potential negative backlash to truly understand what's good for them and WHY! Just a thought.....

Exactly.

Time is an illusion. There are spaces outside of time where your entire experienced reality is subject to the closest scrutiny by karmic energies. Not with judgement, but with the function of allowing you to understand the "energy and desire" behind your actions and experience them as they really are. Usually this is experienced at the moment of death, but sommetimes "stuff" just happens and one can get a peek. IMO, it is a clear understanding of consequences (both intentional and otherwise) which governs many interactions at higher levels, since there they intuitively understand this simple construct: that the ability to do a thing does not mean the need to do a thing, and sometimes things just need to play out before a desired result becomes achievable.

Then again, what is time to someone who has all of it? Think about it.  smile

Re: Is selfishness the fundamental engine of destructiveness?

GibbleTronic wrote:

Exactly.

Time is an illusion. There are spaces outside of time where your entire experienced reality is subject to the closest scrutiny by karmic energies. Not with judgement, but with the function of allowing you to understand the "energy and desire" behind your actions and experience them as they really are. Usually this is experienced at the moment of death, but sommetimes "stuff" just happens and one can get a peek. IMO, it is a clear understanding of consequences (both intentional and otherwise) which governs many interactions at higher levels, since there they intuitively understand this simple construct: that the ability to do a thing does not mean the need to do a thing, and sometimes things just need to play out before a desired result becomes achievable.

Then again, what is time to someone who has all of it? Think about it.  smile

Righto!
Your last statement there "hints" (for lack of a better word) to what I was gonna say, but didn't. The "invincibility" seems to stem from a semi-conscious, yet distorted, innate knowing of god-like nature of the Self. But, the ego steps in to subvert a true realization of this creating a disconnection from reality. But, at the point of death or that window of insight (like you said), reality sets in. "Hmmm.....maybe that wasn't such a good idea after all!" or "Well.....thats' try that again. Maybe it'll work this time." NOT! Hahaha!
I'm glad you pointed out the aspect of nonjudgement, though. Christian programming clouds that understanding. I, personally, have to remember truth does not waver, either. "Now, Matthew, you know you did that, felt that, thought that...!"...."Yeah, you're right. Okay.";)

" Then it was, then again it will be. And though the course may change sometimes rivers always reach the sea." Robert Plant

Re: Is selfishness the fundamental engine of destructiveness?

whywhywhy wrote:

I believe there was a pattern.  The guy was killing child molestors, pedophiles if I believe correctly.

I wasn't thinking of the Ben Kingsley character, but of the final serial killer who he hunts down--the trucker.  The trucker did follow a pattern because he killed mostly children (if I remember correctly), but he did it randomly, often, and was caught not because the pattern he followed but because Ben Kingsley's character was a good remote-viewer.

thook wrote:

People think they can get away with something because of the illusion of time. But, then, it's possible one chooses a path with potential negative backlash to truly understand what's good for them and WHY! Just a thought...

I believe that is often the case: that people choose poorly for the greater purpose of learning.  But it isn't the whole person choosing really, but a portion of them--their higher consciousness.  That idea is compelling to me, but right now I'm more interested in the psychology of motivations in the lower mind.  Is every choice prechosen by the Higher Self?  Or are there paths picked without the consulation, or prior input of, the Higher Self?  Is the principle of freewill applicable between a Higher Self and one of its incarnations?

Also, on selfishness: is it conjecture to suppose that if an individual fully recognizes and appreciates the oneness of all humans and all being, that that person would never do violence?  Would it be possible for a person to know their oneness, to fully feel the fact of oneness, and still cut on themselves?

Is a sense of separation really the root cause of illness and the final explanation for destructive behavior?  Or merely an important, general one?  What if, for some, illness has less to do with the degree of separation/connection one feels, but more to do with the quality of connection?  Or the perceived value of that connection?   

Again, though, I'm actually less interested in what's true, but more interested in what passes through the mind of an "awake" being who chooses an ultimately destructive way.

You can't change a tiger's stripes,
but you can avoid its teeth.

10 (edited by Capitan 2006-03-03 19:18:10)

Re: Is selfishness the fundamental engine of destructiveness?

I was listening to a book on tape analysis of Plato's - The Republic, and in it the subject of justice plays an important rule.  The tell the story of a man who finds a ring that makes him invisible.  The invisible man then rapes his queen and kills the king taking his place.  The moral of the story is that people do things only because they are afraid of getting caught not because they believe in being an upstanding citizen.   So this issue was pondered at least 2000 years ago as well. 

I am not sure that the point that is being made in this thread is that selfishness is the engine of destructiveness.  It seems more that the point being focused on is that people act selfishly because they don't believe in Karmic debt, that they will one day be required to in some repay those whom negative actions were taken.

It is extremely hard to peg a single cause on something.  I think accepting generalizations is a mistake that humanity makes all too often.   It can be said that for a certain result there is a higher probability that it has a certain specific cause, but to say that it is always caused by one thing, is almost never true.

I say this because I am realizing that in some cases destruction is a good thing.  For instance, most in Noble Realms are aware of a Matrix, even though I haven't heard anyone describe cleary what it is.  I do believe that it is generaly agreed upon that we would enjoy life more outside of the matrix.   Would it not then be a good thing to destroy the matrix.  Destroying the matrix would put one at great risk of suffering Karmic debt if there was collateral damage so to speak.  This individual or individuals would be sought by the keepers of the matrix who would have no mercy on the said rebels.  These destroyers then would selflessy be putting themselves at risk for the benifit of the majority.  How then does this fit into the theory that selfishness is the fundamental engine of destructiveness? 

I bid you adieau.

"...But Nothing is Lost:" "Nothing lasts... nothing lasts. Everything is changing into something else. Nothing's wrong. Nothing is wrong. Everything is on track. William Blake said nothing is lost and I believe that we all move on." - Terrence McKenna - Shpongle - But Nothing Is Lost

Re: Is selfishness the fundamental engine of destructiveness?

Capitan wrote:

I am not sure that the point that is being made in this thread is that selfishness is the engine of destructiveness.  It seems more that the point being focused on is that people act selfishly because they don't believe in Karmic debt...

I'm personally more interested in the latter--in what is going through the minds of people who are hurting others either intentionally or through lack of complete thought about their actions.

Capitan wrote:

It is extremely hard to peg a single cause on something.

What I'm wondering is if there is another explanation for negativity besides selfishness.  No, actually, I'm not.  I'm thinking this: the crazy person doesn't usually think they're crazy, right?  So it follows that the extreme STS may not think that they're "STS."  So what is going on their head? 

I guess I'm trying to follow the logic of insanity.  Much of STS can be explained by mental laxity, by ignorance, but not all of it.     

Capitan wrote:

Would it not then be a good thing to destroy the matrix.

Some see the Matrix as a physical and etheric control-system built to manipulate and siphon life-force from organic life on Earth; some see the Earth itself, and the whole physical universe, as a purely evil, virtual prison with no benefit save for the wardens.  I agree with the former view.

But I've carelessly thrown around the word "destructiveness."  I do think creativity involves destroying; or transformaton, if you like.  Do I seek to destroy the Matrix?  I guess I do.  I might say I would like to see less manipulation and more of a sporting chance for people to learn, love, enjoy themselves and evolve.

You can't change a tiger's stripes,
but you can avoid its teeth.