16 (edited by montalk 2006-01-26 12:16:04)

Re: Interesting theories

Kingius2, I merely gave you what you wanted all along - reinforcement of your self-importance. Now you come away feeling better about yourself for being martyred as a free thinker, when the problem instead was your approach and assumptions. All you had to do was pick specifics and offer both some thoughtful counter-arguments and a better alternative to what you disagreed with. Instead you spend five seconds asking "where is the scientific evidence?" and expect five pages of proof, which is asking others to pick up your burden of discovery. Many of the questions you asked were already answered in the posts and articles you nebulously cited, and had you actually read and understood them, your questions either would have been more specific or you would not have asked them in the first place.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

17 (edited by kingius2 2006-01-26 12:14:13)

Re: Interesting theories

Reinforcement of my own self importance? Where did you pull that one from?

What I wanted was a debate on the merits of these off the wall theories (both on reality and conspiracy) with people I thought were free thinkers as that is what they profess themselves to be and all I find is defensiveness and silencing tactics.

No montalk I had to create a new account to say that, you have prevented my old one from even /reading/ the forum as you well know. That is why it says "Kingius2" and not "kingius". And why? Because I asked for some evidence that any of these theories are true and stated my opinion that some of them posted on the forum were rubbish (such as the numerology proving someone is illuminati - come on, thats a joke). They clearly arent very good theories if they cannot stand up to any kind of rebuttal or questioning.

I did not come on here with that point of view but you have helped to form it.

I was wrong to expect someone could be intelligent and reasonable enough to convince me, it seems that if I dont already accept then Im not one of the boys. This IS a religion after all.

Re: Interesting theories

Anyway, its clear Im not welcome and I do not wish to cause further distress to you, your contributers or your believers and will abide by your banning.

Re: Interesting theories

kingius2 wrote:

No montalk I had to create a new account to say that, you have prevented my old one from even /reading/ the forum as you well know.

That's false, I just checked your account and you can read as well as any guest.

kingius2 wrote:

Reinforcement of my own self importance? Where did you pull that one from?

It's evident in your tone, your approach, the simplicity and fallaciousness of your arguments, the hastiness in your response, etc... Of course not that you'd admit to it.

kingius2 wrote:

I did not come on here with that point of view but you have helped to form it.

That's possible, but I still think it's the other way around.

I was wrong to expect someone could be intelligent and reasonable enough to convince me, it seems that if I dont already accept then Im not one of the boys. This IS a religion after all.

Interesting... this points to the problem then, that you place the burden of proof upon others instead of the burden of investigation upon yourself. There is a difference... with the first, you can be lazy, as demonstrated in the question "where is the scientific proof for all of this?"

If you had done your homework, your questions would be more specific, offer a counter-argument and a better alternative. Of course, if you'd like to give it a shot, I would entertain such a question.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

Re: Interesting theories

This is an article from www.montalk.net called "Truth Analysis":

-----------

Truth Analysis

This article describes the reasoning process I use to write most of the articles on this site.

The process is based on two axioms:

   1. truth is not subjective
   2. truth never contradicts itself

Because truth is not subjective, some ideas are more objective than others. This means that no matter what your worldview is, it can always be improved to be more objective. It shows that there is indeed something to strive for.

The idea that truth never contradicts itself is a very powerful axiom. Lies can be internally consistent as well, but a mixture of truth and lies will show contradictions. You can use this principle to discover what’s true and what’s false. Here’s what I mean:

It is difficult to tell if any single idea is true or false, just like it is difficult to tell which of two similar puzzles a single puzzle piece belongs to. But a large collection of non-contradicting ideas will reveal whether the entire collection is true or false. The larger the collection, the easier it is to see. You start with one ambiguous puzzle piece, find others that fit onto it, and soon you can tell which of the two puzzles you’ve put together.

Another analogy is panning for gold. You start with a large amount of material that includes both silt and gold flakes, then you shake the pan and let the silt fall away. This indicates the importance of continually thinking, reading, and discussing large amounts of new material, which is then to be sorted or filtered via intuition and critical thinking to reveal what is true.

It is better to look for what’s wrong with a theory than what’s right. Debates can rage forever concerning the thousand facts supporting a single lie, but no one can argue with a single fact that disproves a thousand lies.

Remember, as long as your worldview is internally consistent, it is most likely entirely true or entirely false. Combine this principle with the five-step process below, and you will have an effective truth analysis method. The process of discovering truth is one of cycling between gathering material, formulating theories, working out inconsistencies, and gathering more material.

Most importantly, truth is always verified by both logic and intuition–logic without intuition, or intuition without logic should never be used to determine truth. They must be used in tandem. If there is conflict between logic and intuition, check your logical assumptions. Use intuition to guide and logic to analyze.

The process goes like this:

1) Gather new ideas from contemplation, observation, discussion, or some reading material. Then pick a mystery, a contradiction, a set of observations or anything that needs to be explained or resolved.

2) To make a good theory that will explain all of that, start with the infinite set of all possibilities. This means anything goes, no idea is too ludicrous. Use your intuition and guess.

3) As ideas come to mind, use critical thinking to eliminate everything that is self contradictory or absolutely impossible. Look for holes in these ideas, try to shoot them down.

4) Of the bulletproof theories that are left, select the theory that:

    * explains all the facts
    * explains the facts better than any other theory
    * explains facts that previous theories could not
    * is logically consistent and has no internal contradictions
    * makes sense
    * feels intuitively correct

5) The theory is worth keeping if:

    * it predicts things which are later confirmed by observation
    * you find correlation from other independent sources

6) If you come across something that challenges the theory, then:

    * check to see that it’s really a challenge, and not just an illusory paradox based on assumptions or incorrect perspective
    * check to see if the challenge is even valid, or if it is internally inconsistent and full of holes
    * modify the theory to accomodate the challenge
    * come up with a whole new theory that explains everything more elegantly than the old one

This is opposite the process used in science and mathematics that starts with axioms and builds upon them. The problem with that method is that it starts with a very limited finite set and creeps upward like a stalagmite. If the assumptions or axioms are false, then everything built on it is in error. Furthermore, such a process cannot skip steps, as it always needs verification from the status quo to proceed to the next step. It cannot take leaps of faith or logic, and therefore cannot make paradigm shifts. It’s an inflexible process that definitely has its advantages when it comes to high risk applications that need lots of security and assuredness, but as far as breaking new ground is concerned, it’s incredibly slow. Any creativity in that process happens only in the formation of the basic axioms, or in accidents that occur along the way.

The process described in this article starts with an infinite set, and whittles away what doesn’t fit. This means there is no need to leap across a logical abyss because one approaches from the other side. It is much easier to build a bridge if someone is already on the other side. Likewise, once a radical idea has been confirmed using this process, it is much easier to work backwards and logically bridge the abyss. Also, the fitting together of ideas and sorting of truth from lies requires creativity at every step, so it’s the best method of achieving rapid innovation.

21 (edited by montalk 2006-01-26 12:30:55)

Re: Interesting theories

kingius2 wrote:

Anyway, its clear Im not welcome and I do not wish to cause further distress to you, your contributers or your believers and will abide by your banning.

Nice... so you sign back on to vent your complaints, then when given a chance to correct your approach and debate intelligently you back out again? Once more - if you can summarize at least one idea that you disagree with, explain why you disagree with it, and offer a better alternative, then that would be great. Otherwise, goodbye.

---

And as Wandering1 just posted, this answers the question in your first post on this thread of how the source material for montalk.net is processed... There is even a site FAQ that includes this:

Where do you get your info?

Most of it comes from personal experience, insight, pondering, and applying critical thinking skills. Outer sources of information like books, websites, and articles serve as inspiration helping me retrieve knowledge from within myself. Some material comes from personal discussion and correspondence with friends.

Regarding published sources, here are my primary influences, my major points of resonance:

1) Law of One (Ra material) – books I/II/III
2) The Cassiopaean Transcripts
3) Bringers of the Dawn – Barbara Marciniak
4) Gnosis, volumes I/II/III – Boris Mouravieff
5) The Toltec Teaching Series – Theun Mares

Why should I believe anything you say?

It’s not a matter of believing, but of discerning for yourself what’s true. The articles on this site are not to be memorized mechanically, but rather used as a collection of ideas to inspire independent thinking and discovery. As far as material on this site goes, accept only what rings true, what you haven’t thought of yet, and what correlates with your own observations. This site is like a buffet, not a spoon feeding.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

Re: Interesting theories

It is clear to me that kingius could very possibly be the unwitting perpetrator of a hyperdimensional attack!!  Having experienced a likely one recently myself I'm starting to become re-sensitized to them.  Careful folks, that new moon is only a few days away...

(I don't mean this post to be a joke, but perhaps it will lighten the mood if only slightly)

Re: Interesting theories

This is a very strange mindset you have, that it is lazy to ask for proof.

The burden of proof is on the person who makes the theory not the person who reads about it. Why should I prove your theory? If you cannot prove it, that speaks volumes about the theory itself, that its not a /fact/ but simply an /idea/.

It would seem that despite banning me, you do want me to stay. Does this mean that you no longer feel quite so threatened by a critical thinker in your midst?

Re: Interesting theories

Of course, meta-agnostic, I agree. If you look at my moon chart, http://www.montalk.net/moon_jan06.jpg you will see that halfway through today, the 26th of January, begins the current new moon window.

Some might irrationally accuse that we are creating a self-fulfilling prophecy and are now using this woo-woo stuff about "hyperdimensional attack" to justify ourselves. Coming from a perspective that lacks understanding in these matters, this accusation is to be expected.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

Re: Interesting theories

I agree with you on the the thought comes from a lack of knowledge on the part of the accusation.

Re: Interesting theories

Well montalk, I must thank you for providing an answer to one of my questions, but on another note, I am unable to even view the forum from the account you banned, never mind post a reply.

Meta-agnostic, I am not an "unwitting perpetrator of a hyperdimensional attack" (whatever that is) although if that is what people in this community think (and Im assuming that it is not a good thing) no wonder people have been so defensive.

To be more specific about some of the things I have read on this site are the articles on some people having no souls and being robots, plant souls inhabiting people and other out there things. Which is why I want to know... how does somebody /know/ this to write it down, the natural assumption is that there must have been proof that the person discovered, or am I wrong?

Re: Interesting theories

Well montalk, I must thank you for providing an answer to one of my questions, but on another note, I am unable to even view the forum from the account you banned, never mind post a reply.

Right, though when you're not signed in, you can read like any guest.

Kingius2 wrote:

The burden of proof is on the person who makes the theory not the person who reads about it.

Based on your root assumptions, that should be so. However you are subscribing to a flawed methodology that carries the risk of being exploited by biased skeptics who refuse to understand the very thing they criticize and then subjective raise the bar whenever someone offers evidence or reasoning that threatens to undermine their set biases.

I employ a different method where instead of asking others to carry the burden of my ignorance, I actually spend some time and energy understanding their idea well enough to point out the logical inconsistencies and then offer a better alternative. Still waiting for you to do the same. The reason it would not be advantageous to your position is that were you to provide a supposed better alternative, I could in turn point out either its inconsistency or its insufficiency in explaining certain observations that you either purposely or unwittingly leave out.

Kingius2 wrote:

It would seem that despite banning me, you do want me to stay. Does this mean that you no longer feel quite so threatened by a critical thinker in your midst?

Nope....I'm still trembling in my boots....ggrgrgrgrgrg

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

28 (edited by kingius2 2006-01-26 12:55:15)

Re: Interesting theories

"I employ a different method where instead of asking others to carry the burden of my ignorance, I actually spend some time and energy understanding their idea"

The problem with this methodology, over simply asking the write for proof of what they are saying is the truth, is that you will spend an inordinate amount of time and energy researching all of the sources and in the end you may find out that the theory was "wrong" to start with and so have wasted what could have been productive time.

PS I am no threat to this community nor am I attacking it, "hyperdimensionally" "11th density to 3rd" or otherwise.

29 (edited by montalk 2006-01-26 12:57:50)

Re: Interesting theories

Kingius2 wrote:

The problem with this methodology is that you will spend an inordinate amount of time and energy to do this and in the end find out that the theory was "wrong" to start with and so have wasted what could have been productive time.

That's the smartest rationalization for laziness and ignorance I have ever read. Congratulations!

Did you know that all proofs have at their foundation a set of root assumptions or axioms? What happens when one of them turns out to be false? Then "you will spend an inordinate amount of time and energy to do this and in the end find out that the theory was 'wrong' to start with and so have wasted what could have been productive time."

As I said in my Truth Analysis article, which you have yet to read because that might be a waste of your time, it is more reliable to show something is wrong through counter-example or finding some flaw, than to prove it correct. Because any false theory can have mountains of "evidence" supporting it so long as the couple counter-examples that could collapse it all are ignored. It's more efficient to understand something well enough to find its holes, than to find all available proof. That's why I have not answered your request for proof and instead have asked you to find the holes, flaws, and inconsistencies and offer a better alternative.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

Re: Interesting theories

MONTALK i agree with that as well. it seems he has a touch of ignorance with the lack of faith