Topic: Gossip

Several years ago, while reading various Buddhist books, the subject of gossip became an interesting thing to me.  Right speech does not, for example, include gossip.

But what IS gossip?  Seemingly everyone knows it's not talking about someone behind their back BUT most people feel that if what is talked about/discussed is TRUE then it's not gossip.

Nope -- it's not slander but it definitely IS gossip.

I've come to realize that as FUN or BONDING it might feel at the moment, when discussing for example what a pill my landlady is, with someone in my community -- it is in fact gossip. 

AND like any activity creates karma.  Cause and effect.  ANY activity. 

And do I choose to create potential harmful effects or not?  My choice.

Gossip because of it's hidden nature definitely causes effects but perhaps not obvious at first.  However, karma knows no bounderies and yes -- the effect will follow.

On a message board, with the potential to contact each other (thanks to the forum parameters) the potential to form REAL friendships exists.  The potential to form relationships based on common disagreements/upsets/whatev also exists. 

And those types of behind the scenes chattering are damaging.

I found it very difficult when I started to become fully aware of gossip just how pervasive it was in my life -- I would talk about someone to my ex-husband because afterall "he understood" -- or I would agree with someone elses take on someone and we would form a "bond" of negative agreement.

It's FAR more difficult NOT to gossip than it seems.  Try it for a day.  Don't talk about ANYONE to anyone.  Not even positive things.  Just stay in the moment WITH someone else -- there isn't any room for anyone else or talking about someone from past experience.

Whew!!

Just had to get this off my chest.  When we are discussing positive ways to ACT, detach from the matrix, and get on with creating a different reality --- not gossiping to me ranks even higher than turning off the TV smile

WR,
Christine

Re: Gossip

You put it very well, and it's so true.

3 (edited by Jen 2005-12-07 11:20:16)

Re: Gossip

I disagree with the Buddhist take on this.  How can we avoid talking about the people we know, when they are so interesing?

As far as others gossiping about me, for example, I can only say, "Be my guest."  cool

EDIT:  It's all a matter of balance, of course.  If someone is spending ALL their time gossiping, especially in tearing others down, that's bad.  I agree with Crhistine that our primary focus ought to be on creating what we desire for ourselves.

But completely refraining from discussing other people--I don't think that's realistic.  In therapy, for example, it's accepted that we need to talk about the people in our lives and our feelings about them.  How is this any different from talking about these issues with our friends?
Not all of us can afford to pay $50 or more per hour for this...

Re: Gossip

Hmmm, my view on this concept is that gossiping about others is a feat in deataching yourself from the eternal moment.  When you say "Well so-and-so did this yesterday" you are simply not being aware of this moment, you are actually just NOT being. 

Nicely said Christine smile and thank you

"Beyond the stars a new world awaits me now" - Wintersun

5

Re: Gossip

Aren't discussions of politics, for example, just gossip, from  this point of view?  Talking about anyone in the public eye--no different, ultimately, from talking about our neighbors.

If we were to go through this forum and delete all the posts where we talk about people, there wouldn't be much left, would there?

Re: Gossip

That would be very intresting to see.  Hmmmm, I think this term "Gossip" need to be more cleary defined. 

Gossip to me seems to be when we talk about a particular person and then proceed on to judge that person.  If we are having a discussion about the "search for truth" for example, and we comment about another persons thoughts and ideas, that seems to be different.  Although this is only my perception on gossip.  Ultimately I conclude that some forms of gossip take us away from ourselves.  Like for example, "I wonder whats going to happen to Brittney Spears marriage?" or "Did you hear about Brad Pitt and Angelina Joliee"

That unfulfilling part about this is I've actually heard of those gossip topics and many people can possibly relate; as when we go to buy food at a grocery store and we are standing in line, we see magazines about Oprah and models that are really really thin, and then subconsiously we may or may not think that "that is the way life is suppose to be like".

I've strayed a little bit off topic, but my thoughts we're directed to say that gossip, in the form that I see it (media, personal dramas ie; high school) is energy draining.

"Beyond the stars a new world awaits me now" - Wintersun

Re: Gossip

Jen -- I think you've collapsed a few of my sentences together and made something different.  As far as I know the Buddhist point of view is simply that right speech does not include gossip.

It is MY added comment that not talking about anyone good OR bad is quite difficult.  This doesn't mean it is the Buddhist dharma -- just something I considered. 

And what I considered was just how much of our (my) conversation revolves around someone else.  And yes -- discussing politics typically includes discussions about someone(s), as do discussions about broad concepts as they are usually something found in books.  (ie conspiracy theories).

As well as discussions about channeled beings, past religious leaders, movie stars -- you name it.

BUT -- does this mean that THIS is the only thing we can discuss?  Could we not discuss how I'm doing today?  How somehow I've made my life more meaningful because I took THIS or THAT action ...

Rather than intellectualizing about someones opinions.  But the KEY thing is are the discussions about the persons CONCEPTS, BELIEFS, ACTIONS or are they about the person himself.  What is perceived to be HIM. 

So -- in a nutshell -- obvious gossip which maligns someone to me IS not a good thing.

Sharing with others their feelings where they all agree what an ickky person so-and-so is -- is not a good thing.  It creates a behind the scene web of deceit.  Which has a lower frequencies and this INVITES other low frequency beings to it -- like a magnet and one can become a portal for low vibration entities.

And I still maintain -- IF I am really involved and active in MY life and creating my life, then conversations rarely if ever are focused on someone else -- politician or no.

At the moment perhaps IF we were to delete all the posts here on NR where we talk about someone there might not be that many posts -- but for sure there would be less UPSETTING posts.

My take is we would all be better off, if we'd steeled ourselves from gossip and worked to bring intelligent cooperation to each other.  Quick example is Ayahuasa's recent post with that link to the new mag.

WR,
Christine

8 (edited by Ayahuasca 2005-12-07 12:26:59)

Re: Gossip

Jen wrote:

Aren't discussions of politics, for example, just gossip, from  this point of view?  Talking about anyone in the public eye--no different, ultimately, from talking about our neighbors.

No I disagree, I think there's a world of difference between talking about people you don't know (ie politicians, celebrities etc) and people you do know (friends, family etc).

There's an amazing few pages in the book 'The Four Agreements' where Don Miguel Ruiz compares gossip to being like a destructive computer virus. I'll scan it in later when I have time.

I'm sure all of us here are guilty of gossiping from time to time, but there's no doubt that it's incredibly destructive, because more often than not gossip is based on opinions rather than truth, and it's amazing how easy it is to influence someones opinion about someone else through mindless gossip.

I definitely agree with Christine that we should do our best to keep gossip to a minimum.

Andy

Join me in Peru to celebrate December 21st 2012 - Visit: http://2012awakeningretreat.com/

9 (edited by Jen 2005-12-07 12:30:12)

Re: Gossip

I think it's possible to work through our negative feelings about someone in discussing them, rather than making those negative feelings a cause celebre and seeing the person's way of being as set in stone, with no possibility of positive change.  It's the intent that matters.

Both my son and I went through a very difficult time with our respective roommates.  I'm not ashamed to say that we complained about them with one another  to our heart's content.  Now, however, we've worked things through with them, and we're both getting along with them much better.  I think it was helpful that we could let off steam about the situation with each other; we were then empowered to deal with things more effectively, and we no longer feel the need to gossip on that score.  I think it also helps that we were able to help each other find the humor in it all.  A sense of humor is a lifesaver. 

Anyway, it's my take that this issue is not all black and white, and there is no "one size fits all' here, as is the case with so much of life.
But again, as I said before, I agree that gossip with the sole intention of tearing another person down is destructive to all concerned.

Good topic of discussion, Christine, thanks for sparking me on this subject. smile

Re: Gossip

[Jen=]I agree with Crhistine that our primary focus ought to be on creating what we desire for ourselves.

But completely refraining from discussing other people--I don't think that's realistic.  In therapy, for example, it's accepted that we need to talk about the people in our lives and our feelings about them.  How is this any different from talking about these issues with our friends?
Not all of us can afford to pay $50 or more per hour for this...[/Jen]

My experience in that in therapy it all too often is discussing other people in a negative way which tends to make the person in therapy the victim -- people would much rather look at what others have done to them, than what they have done to cause that to happen.  The old karma coming back.

Also, I didn't really say we should focus on what makes us feel good - what I said was while we are discussing detaching from the matrix, unplugging etc - we should include not gossiping.

Hope this helps to clarify what I have tried to express.

WR,
Christine

11

Re: Gossip

Ultimately, we may agree more on this than we disagree.  I do believe
that the people in our lives are mirror reflections of us, in one way or another, so ultimately, hating and belittling them is hating and belittling ourselves.   If we can hold on to that perception, and look for the Love in all situations, then destructive gossip would naturally have very short life span, if we indulged in it at all.

Christine, you mentioned Andy's post with a link to a mag, I didn't see that one...?

And yes, Andy, would be interested to see those pages from The Four Agreements.

Re: Gossip

Here's Andy's post which has the link in it:
http://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?id=2598

The complexity of mirrors is perhaps for another topic.  But I think we can agree that when faced with gossiping or not, it would probably serve ourselves and others better if we were just able to refrain.

And exhibiting that type of restraint, develops spiritual muscle --

WR,
Chrsitine

Re: Gossip

Excerpt from The Four Agreements

Be Impeccable with Your Word

(snip) Through the word you express your creative power.  It is through the word that you manifest everything.  Regardless of what language you speak, your intent manifests through the word.  What you dream, what you feel, and what you really are, will all be manifested through the word.

The word is not just a sound or a written symbol.  The word is a force; it is the power you have to express and communicate, to think, and thereby to create the events in your life.  You can speak.  What other animal on the planet can speak?  The word is the most powerful tool you have as a human; it is the tool of magic.  But like a sword with two edges, your word can create the most beautiful dream, or your word can destroy everything around you.  One edge is the misuse of the word, which creates a living hell.  The other edge is the impeccability of the word, which will only create beauty, love, and heaven on earth.  Depending upon how it is used, the word can set you free, or it can enslave you even more than you know.  Your word is pure magic, and misuse of your word is black magic.

(snip) Every human is a magician, and we can either put a spell on someone with our word or we can release someone from a spell.  We cast spells all the time with our opinions.

(snip) Being impeccable with your word is the correct use of your energy; it means to use your energy in the direction of truth and love for yourself.  If you make an agreement with yourself to be impeccable with oyur word, just with that intention, the truth will manifest through you and clean all the emotional poison that exists within you.  But making this agreement is difficult because we have learned to do precisely the opposite.  We have learned to lie as a habit of our communication with others and more importantly with ourselves.  We are not impeccable with the word.

The power of the word is completely misused in hell.  We use the word to curse, to blame, to find guilt, to destroy.  Of course, we also use it in the right way, but not too often.  Mostly we use the word to spread our personal poison–to express anger, jealousy, envy, and hate.  The word is pure magic–the most powerful gift we have a humans–and we use it against ourselves.  We plan revenge.  We create chaos with the word.  We use the word to create hate between different races, between different people, between families, between nations.  We misuse the word so often, and this misuse is how we create and perpetuate the dream of hell.  Misuse of the word is how we pull each other down and keep each other in a state of fear and doubt.  Because the word is the magic that humans posses and misuse of the word is black magic, we are using black magic all the time without knowing that our word is magic at all.

(snip)Looking at everyday human interactions, imagine how many times we cast spells on each other with our word.  Over time this interaction has become the worst form of black magic, and we call it gossip.

Gossip is black magic at its very worst because it is pure poison.  We learned how to gossip by agreement.  When we were children, we heard the adults around us gossiping all the time, openly giving their opinions about other people.  They even had opinions about people they didn’t know.  Emotional poison was transferred along with the opinions, and we learned this as the normal way to communicate.

Gossiping has become the main form of communication in human society.  It has become the way we feel close to each other, because it makes us feel better to see someone else feel as badly as we do.  There is an old expression that says, “Misery likes company,”  and people who are suffering in hell don’t want to be all alone. Fear and suffering are an important part of the dream of the planet; they are how the dream of the planet keeps up down.

Using the analogy of the human mind as a computer, gossip can be compared to a computer virus.  A computer virus is a piece of computer language written in the same language all the other codes are written in, but with a harmful intent.  This code is inserted into the program of your computer when you least expect it and most of the time without your awareness.  After this code has been introduced, your computer doesn’t work quite right, or it doesn’t function at all because the codes get so mixed up with so many conflicting messages that it stops producing good results.

Human gossip works exactly the same way.  For example, you are beginning a new class with a new teacher and you have looked forward to it for a long time.  On the first day of class, you run into someone who took the class before, who tells you, “Oh that instructor was such a pompous jerk!  He didn’t know what he was talking about, and he was a pervert too, so watch out!”

You are immediately imprinted with the word and the emotional code the person had when saying this, but what you are not aware of is his or her motivation in telling you.  This person could be angry for failing the class or simply making an assumption based on fears and prejudices, but because you have learned to ingest information like a child, some part of you believes the gossip, and you go on to the class.  As the teacher speaks, you feel the poison come up inside you and you don’t realize you see the teacher through the eyes of the person who gave you that gossip.  Then you start talking to other people in the class about this, and they start to see the teacher in the same way:  as a jerk and a pervert.  Your really hate the class, and soon you decide to drop out.  You blame the teacher, but it is gossip that is to blame.

All of this mess can be caused by one little computer virus.  One little piece of misinformation can break down communication between people, causing every person it touches to become infected and contagious to others.  Imagine that every single time others gossip to you, they insert a computer virus into your mind, causing you to think a little less clearly every time.  Then imagine that in an effort to clean up your own confusion and get some relief from the poison, you gossip and spread these viruses to someone else.

Now imagine this pattern going on in a never-ending chain between all the humans on earth.  The result is a world full of humans who can only read information through circuits that are clogged with a poisonous, contagious virus.  Once again, this poisonous virus is what the Toltecs called the “mitote” , the chaos of a thousand different voices all trying to talk at once in the mind.

Even worse are the black magicians or “computer hackers”  who intentionally spread the virus.  Think back to a time when you or someone you know was angry with someone else and desired revenge.  In order to seek revenge you said something to or about that person with the intention of spreading poison and making that person feel back about him- or herself.  As children we do this quite thoughtlessly, but as we grow older we become much more calculated in our efforts to bring other people down.  Then we lie to ourselves and say that person received a just punishment for their wrongdoing.

When we see the world through a computer virus, it is easy to justify the cruelest behavior.  What we don’t see is that misuse of our word is putting us deeper into hell.

For years we have received the gossip and spells from the words of others, but also from the way we use our word with ourselves.  We talk to ourselves constantly and most of the time we say things like, “Oh, I look fat, I look ugly.  I’m getting old.  I’m losing my hair.  I’m stupid, I never understand anything.  I will never  be good enough, and I’m never going to be perfect.”   Do you see how we use the word against ourselves?  We must begin to understand what the word is and what the word does.  If you understand the first agreement, be impeccable with your word, you begin to see all the changes that can happen in your life.  Changes first in the way you deal with yourself, and later in the way you deal with other people, especially those you love the most.

Consider how many times you have gossiped about the person you love the most to gain the support of others for your point of view.  How many times have you hooked other people’s attention, and spread poison about your loved one in order to make your opinion right?  Your opinion is nothing but your point of view.  It is not necessarily true.  Your opinion comes from your beliefs, your own ego, and your own dream.  We create all this
poison and spread it to others just so we can feel right about our own point of view.

If we adopt the first agreement, and become impeccable with our word, any emotional poison will eventually be cleaned from our mind and from our communication in our personal relationships, including with our pet dog or cat.

Impeccability of the word will also give you immunity from anyone putting a negative spell on you.  You will only receive a negative idea if your mind is fertile ground for that idea.  When you become impeccable with your word, your mind is no longer fertile ground for words that come from black magic.  Instead, it is fertile for the words that come from love. (snip)

Re: Gossip

Thanks for saving me a job and posting that Soloflecks. It's such an awesome bit of writing that we should really try and burn into our brains so we don't forget it.

Not gossiping at all, even just for a day can be incredibly difficult, mainly because we often do it without realising we're doing it. However since reading The Four Agreements last year I definitely gossip much less than I used to. I think it's now time to try and cut it out completely, or as much as I possibly can.

Join me in Peru to celebrate December 21st 2012 - Visit: http://2012awakeningretreat.com/

Re: Gossip

Soloflecks wrote:

Consider how many times you have gossiped about the person you love the most to gain the support of others for your point of view.  How many times have you hooked other people’s attention, and spread poison about your loved one in order to make your opinion right?  Your opinion is nothing but your point of view.  It is not necessarily true.  Your opinion comes from your beliefs, your own ego, and your own dream.  We create all this
poison and spread it to others just so we can feel right about our own point of view.

Soloflecks,

Thanks for posting.  I am quoting  a small segment of your post because it is so true it needs repeating.  I must say that in the past I have been guilty of doing exactly what is described above.  It makes me feel shameful but I recognized my wrongs and have made a commitment to turn away from it.  It is poisonous, manipulative and nothing good comes out of it.   Even if the gossip is 100% true it is better to face the person than talking behind them.  This is easier said than done for sometimes individuals reactions cover the entire spectrum from being thankful to perhaps violent.  A hard choice to make indeed............