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Re: The Mystery of Jesus

Krazor wrote:

Just what is in it for you to have eternal life, and what makes that so important. You-know, in the general scheme of things. All of humanity would be far better off it not one of these religions had ever surfaced. Fueled by fear of the unknown, and fed by force of arms they destroy everything in their path. Witness the gunning of the hindus in Afganistan by the super holy Taliban. You Christians are no better. All of these faiths have no bearing on the creator, never did, never will. More savage behavour in the name of some killer deity. The real pity of this, is that the non-believers will be forced to defend themselves from these hell-bent for leather religions and by defending themselves be forced to have contact with the violence needed to stop these crusades, jihads, pogroms, whatever, and that is really too bad. Except me. Bring it on.

The communists (atheists - non believers) killed 60 million working class Russians and East Europeans  between 1917 and 1950.

Nearly 100 million killed in WWI and II

So really to say Religion is responsible for war is stretching things a bit. Besides it is all too easy to confuse a "Religion" - a man made sect for the purpose of controlling people, and people who have an individual faith in some higher creator/God.

62 Reply by Krazor (edited by Krazor 2005-09-28 14:38:20)

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Re: The Mystery of Jesus

There are hugh components of WW2 that  used religion as a martial call.  Communism will be remembered for many things, but the killings were more the result of Stalin, than Lenin.  One more egomaniac tossed on the bonfire. Some parts of the world are giant killing zones. Religion at it's best can organize relief to the downtrodden, sometimes much better than a government, but it's the unblinking belief in an off planet creature that intends to solve all our troubles that drives me nuts. Nothing, not deity, no God, No Saviour, Nothing has my permission to blow off our species because it can. Me and it  are going to have some words about such behaviour. Do these deities have a place to talk it out, you-know a cosmic psychcologist?

63 Reply by Jen

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Re: The Mystery of Jesus

There is no deity outside of your Self. 

Jesus said, "I and my Father are one but my Father is greater than I."
Here is a hint of the meaning of this, from the Yeshua channeling I posted:

Reality, as can be conceived, exists primarily on two levels, the level of Creator, and the level of Creation. At the level of Creator, all is known. At the level of Creation, all is experienced. At the Creator level, all is perfect. At the Creation level, all is being perfected, only to be destroyed and perfected again in yet another of an infinite numbers of possibilities.

We are both the Creator (Father) and the Creation (embodied person).
The Creator is at a higher level than the creation, but they are one. 
Another way to see this, from the Hindu Vedas,  is Atman (innnermost personal reality) and Brahman (the ultimate reality of the universe). 
Atman and Brahman are one and the same.

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Re: The Mystery of Jesus

Krazor wrote:

There are hugh components of WW2 that  used religion as a martial call.

Not too sure about that. Please tell us which major war in yhe last 500 years has been caused by Religion? Admittedly most of the major religious sects have been infiltrated by the PTB, and the followers are being led down the wrong path.


Krazor wrote:

No Saviour, Nothing has my permission to blow off our species because it can.

No saviour, as you put it, is trying to do this, and none of the major religions teach this. Bush, Blair and thier masters are doing this, the people who 'worship' the politicians are far more dangerous than the religious people.

One year ago I would have said the same as you, ie Religion is the root of all evil. But if you think about it you will realise that it is Power mad Politicians, Kings, Dictators, Bankers that cause all wars, in some cases , yes they have used religion as an excuse. Maybe its the fault of the people for allowing themselves to be duped so easily.

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Re: The Mystery of Jesus

One thing I like about the teachings of Jesus that is a bit obscure is the teaching that, if two get together, then you can make things possible.  Jesus said that since he is the Father and Jesus together, he is two and can will things to happen.  The implication is that, with Christ in our hearts, we have the same ability.  Just thought I'd throw that out there, as a lot of people tend to overlook that the message of Christ was putting the power into the hands of people when they establish a relationship with the Divine.

* When we start identifying wisdom with our ability to comprehend its form, what wisdom is that?
* Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
* People want platitudes, not progress.
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Re: The Mystery of Jesus

Sorry for another post so soon, but I thought I might as well post this before I forget.  What's interesting about what Jesus says is that things are happening because they were written in the scriptures, as if indicating that belief dictates reality.  The Jews made prophecies, and they got them fulfilled.  The twist is that they weren't fulfilled in the way they expected.  Scriptures dictating reality can also be found in the famous line, "Is it not written that ye are gods?", as if that makes it true and cannot be broken.  So, people get together and generate enough belief, and it will happen, but not in the manner you expect.

Also, the whole scene where Jesus dies on the cross and the Temple Curtain being torn is supposed to indicate that people can now come before God without going through a priest.  Now there was a possibility to experience God yourself.  Before, to be before God, you'd have to absolve yourself of what God considered bad (which Jesus said was impossible based on intellect), but after Jesus died, you were supposed to be able to be before God without your sins mucking up your relationship, letting you focus on a relationship with God based on a familial love.  Another indication that the ideals in Christianity are supposed to free you, no matter what anyone did with the religion since then.

* When we start identifying wisdom with our ability to comprehend its form, what wisdom is that?
* Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
* People want platitudes, not progress.
  • T-Ren
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Re: The Mystery of Jesus

Hey Haven,

Those are a couple of thoughts I had not even thought of before... something to chew on thanks.

Peace,
Teddy

"It means the Matrix can't tell you who you are" - Trinity

68 Reply by Jen (edited by Jen 2005-09-29 08:25:00)

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Re: The Mystery of Jesus

Haven wrote:

One thing I like about the teachings of Jesus that is a bit obscure is the teaching that, if two get together, then you can make things possible.  Jesus said that since he is the Father and Jesus together, he is two and can will things to happen.  The implication is that, with Christ in our hearts, we have the same ability.  Just thought I'd throw that out there, as a lot of people tend to overlook that the message of Christ was putting the power into the hands of people when they establish a relationship with the Divine.

My favorite writer on the Bible is Neville--he makes the most sense to me--and he has this to say about the line "Two shall agree as touching anything and it shall be established on earth." According to Neville it does not refer to two individual people, nor does it refer to placing one's faith in Jesus.  From Neville's book Your Faith Is Your Fortune:

Neville wrote:

Your receptive attitude of mind while praying or contempating can be likened to a bride or womb for it is that aspect of mind which receives the impressions. That which you contemplate being
is the groom, for it is the name or nature you assume and therefore it is that which leaves its impregnation..."Two shall agree as touching anything and it will be established on earth." The two agreeing are you, the bride, and the thing desired, the groom. As this agreement is accomplished a son bearing witness of this agreement will be born. You begin to express and possess that which you are conscious of being. Prayer, then, is recognizing yourself to be that which you desire to be
rather than begging God for that which you desire.

there is a good article about Neville's teachings here: http://www.mitchhorowitz.com/neville-goddard.html

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Re: The Mystery of Jesus

Well, not faith in Jesus, per se, but the connection to the divine inside yourself, be it the Father, Heaven, spirit, soul, etc., or, as I have come to know it, Christ.

* When we start identifying wisdom with our ability to comprehend its form, what wisdom is that?
* Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
* People want platitudes, not progress.

70 Reply by Jen

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Re: The Mystery of Jesus

Yes, that's the ticket. smile

71 Reply by Haven (edited by Haven 2005-09-29 11:37:07)

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Re: The Mystery of Jesus

I don't know if it matters in the end what you want to call it.  Believing in an actual Jesus may make it easier, as believing in a God as a Father might make it easier.  I think you should use whatever works.  For those that need something physical to make it real, then there is nothing wrong with utilizing the belief that Jesus was real and did all that he did.  It would seem that God would have to foresee all possibilities and provide for all believers, even the meek among us.  I actually think it might be more holy to accept that you are on this earth and to exist as a human, instead of worrying about the divine, as long as you try to do what that higher voice in you says to do in regards to being nice to others.  The point may be to just realize that there is something higher than you and your life adjusts accordingly.  We, us searching deeply for the divine, may be the weak ones as we require more than what others easily achieve by getting their message from simply reading and believing.  We may pat ourselves on the back, but we sure require a whole lot more to rationalize being good to others than those simple Christians that just do it without needing as much explanation.  Seems those types of people are more naturally good than us.

* When we start identifying wisdom with our ability to comprehend its form, what wisdom is that?
* Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
* People want platitudes, not progress.

72 Reply by Jen

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Re: The Mystery of Jesus

Haven wrote:

I don't know if it matters in the end what you want to call it.  Believing in an actual Jesus may make it easier, as believing in a God as a Father might make it easier.  I think you should use whatever works.

Yes, of course.   I know I prefer to believe there was/is an actual Jesus, Yeshua, whatever you want to call him, and that he was a representation of the Christ spirit.   But, I'm easy about it, and am also fine with the idea that he was a mythical master, as per Neville.  Either way he is still "real" to me. 

 

For those that need something physical to make it real, then there is nothing wrong with utilizing the belief that Jesus was real and did all that he did.  It would seem that God would have to foresee all possibilities and provide for all believers, even the meek among us.  I actually think it might be more holy to accept that you are on this earth and to exist as a human, instead of worrying about the divine, as long as you try to do what that higher voice in you says to do in regards to being nice to others.  The point may be to just realize that there is something higher than you and your life adjusts accordingly.

Or to realize that the higher and lower are all Us, it's just a matter of
tuning in.  Jesus was tuned to the "higher" and that was why he had those extraordinary powers, but he was definite that we had the same powers and that some day we would wake up to them.

We, us searching deeply for the divine, may be the weak ones as we require more than what others easily achieve by getting their message from simply reading and believing.  We may pat ourselves on the back, but we sure require a whole lot more to rationalize being good to others than those simple Christians that just do it without needing as much explanation.  Seems those types of people are more naturally good than us.

Hey, we're all doing the best we can, and I think we all ought to pat ourselves on the back a heck of a lot more.  Most people are way too self-critical.

Which brings us to what Jesus said about loving our neighbor:  "Love thy neighbor as thyself."  Meaning,  we can only love another to the extent that we love ourselves, and this is the key to recognizing our Oneness. So, let's start there...

73 Reply by Jen

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Re: The Mystery of Jesus

Still reading the Yeshua channeling of the story of his life.  From Part 3:

I began to openly teach that the children of the Mother/Father did not need the intermediary of a priesthood. They had only to go quietly within and ask and all would be received. I taught that no church, nor temple, nor sacred mountain cave was necessary for communion with God. And everywhere I travelled I taught of the One God, the Unified Source, the Great Initiator. The Father/Mother. And I taught of the equal worth of all men and women. And I offered only one request of All That Is for Her children: Love God with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul -- for you are a part of God -- and love each other as yourself, for you are truly one in the same.

And it is in this teaching that I sowed the seeds of my eventual death.

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Re: The Mystery of Jesus

Hey, Jen, that reminds me of when Jesus was talking to the Samaritan woman:

20 Our fathers adored on this mountain, and you say, that at Jerusalem is the place where men must adore.

21 Jesus saith to her: Woman, believe me, that the hour cometh, when you shall neither on this mountain, not in Jerusalem, adore the Father.

22 You adore that which you know not: we adore that which we know; for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true adorers shall adore the Father in spirit and in truth. For the Father also seeketh such to adore him.

24 God is a spirit; and they that adore him, must adore him in spirit and in truth.

* When we start identifying wisdom with our ability to comprehend its form, what wisdom is that?
* Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
* People want platitudes, not progress.
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Re: The Mystery of Jesus

T-Ren wrote:

Hey Haven,

Those are a couple of thoughts I had not even thought of before... something to chew on thanks.

There's a lot going on in the Bible that we miss because we've already figured it out.  I'm still suprised when I pick up wisdom from it.  Ask me back in the day, I would have thought that this sentiment was just a load of rubbish, but when I actually learned to open my eyes and just read it for what it was saying plain as day, then it started opening up for me.

* When we start identifying wisdom with our ability to comprehend its form, what wisdom is that?
* Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
* People want platitudes, not progress.