1 Topic by ermolai (edited by ermolai 2004-10-24 14:22:17)

  • From: sw tz rl nd
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Topic: J.J. Hurtak?

Hi,

The Adventures Serie on the C's website mentions here that Dan Winter, Maynerd Most, J. J. Hurtak and Drunvalo Melchizidek are all closely related and, apparently, working with an agenda of disinformation (as discussed on this old thread). I know about 3 of them but haven't found any "proof" of the negative agenda of J. J. Hurtak.

The author of the only French book on the Matrix, who seems to geniunely seek the truth, makes many praises of the work of Dr. Hurtak, so when I found this connection my jaw dropped and I'm now interested in finding more about this, mostly because a friend of mine could benefit from such information.

Hurtak runs several websites including http://www.affs.org, http://www.keysofenoch.org (a message he channelled) and http://futurescience.org ... Surfing through them I cannot really put my finger on clear signs of disinformation. There is a lot of stuff on sacred geometry, egyptians and the like, which is suspect, but not necessarily negative. It does not seem to be the same non-sense babble as Dan Winter and others, but it does not really speak to my soul either smile

How do you feel about it? Does anybody have more information on this person?

ermolai's Website

2 Reply by ermolai (edited by ermolai 2004-10-24 14:48:51)

  • From: sw tz rl nd
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: J.J. Hurtak?

So now there is a connection with Rene Schwaller de Lubicz ... both operate/d in France ... also note mention of "Great White Brotherhood" which is from what I've read highly negative ... the article says he's an "alleged CIA consultant" ... fishy fishy.

The Book of Knowledge constitutes Hurtak’s attempt to construct what occultist Rene Schwaller de Lubicz referred to as la Symbolique, a purported system of knowledge transmission de Lubicz considered to be primarily visual and pre-linguistic, and is secretly encoded in the shapes of various written languages, mystical buildings, such as the Great Pyramid and for Hurtak, in human DNA.8 Both de Lubicz and Hurtak understand la Symbolique as the true source of universal knowledge that was bequeathed to humanity through nine intermediary extraterrestrial beings that constituted the Heliopolis of ancient Egypt. Hurtak identifies these beings as coming from Orion and the Pleiades and he designates them in various ways: “The Masters,“? “The Council of Light,“? “The Great White Brotherhood,“? etc.

http://www.cesnur.org/2004/waco_matthews.htm

ermolai's Website

  • From: sw tz rl nd
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: J.J. Hurtak?

The article is rather revealing actually...

So, how has this premillennial scenario played to Hurtak’s New Age and Ascensionist audience? It’s a mixed bag. The ascensionists of my acquaintance are generally quite familiar with Hurtak’s text, regarding it as a pivotal New Age document. However, most of them are primarily interested in the parts of Hurtak’s book that might provide clues or theories regarding ascension techniques to initiate human evolution by recoding DNA. Perhaps one of the most interesting responses can be found in an early ascension channeling session conducted by trance channel Barbara Marciniak in 1990. When asked specifically about Hurtak and The Book of Knowledge, Marciniak’s guides replied that, although in the past they may have spoken highly of the Book, they also had “always maintained that [we] do not agree with what is being said there.“? While the book is said to “resonate with its own form of integrity,“? it is also limited by Hurtak’s belief systems, and he will eventually be surprised when he finds out what and who the conflict really involves. Her guides go on to recommend The Gods of Eden by William Bramley as a more accurate account of humanity’s extraterrestrial background.16 Some ascensionists have reported to me that something about the book “creeps them out,“? and still others were quite surprised when I pointed out passages in the text that seemed to vilify Muslims or contained a ‘master race’ narrative. Most ascensionists seem not to be very interested in pursuing Hurtak’s premillennial charges of anti-Christ Muslim behavior, even while they generally accept his overall narrative regarding the existence of an extraterrestrial conspiracy on the Earth that is designed to keep humans from evolving and the importance of DNA as the locus of personal incarnation.

On the 5th note below, it pretty much says that "The Keys of Enoch" is a patchwork of Rene Schwaller de Lubicz and Buckminster Fuller. Note that the C's article says that Rene Schwaller de Lubicz's work itself is a patchwork of Fucanelli.

This technique creates an extremely dense, eccentric and multi-layered text, which is extremely difficult to decode or even simply follow unless one has some sense of a broad range of disciplines, including occult Egyptology, hermetic and Jewish Kabbalah, computer lingo, Pythagorean mathematics and the basic vocabularies of geology, paleontology, astronomy, organic chemistry, biology and linguistics. I was clued into some of Hurtak’s source material in 2001 while working at a metaphysical bookstore in Kansas City, MO. I noticed that following ascension workshops featuring the work of Hurtak and Drunvalo Melchizedek in the KC area, requests for de Lubicz would soar among the attendees. Upon inquiry, I found out that facilitators in the workshops were recommending de Lubicz as essential “background“? information. The Fuller connection was made by a friend of mine who happens to be well read in esoteric literature. She took a look at Hurtak’s text and was able to point out key passages in Fuller’s work that appear to be directly influential. My recommendation: read Rene Schwaller de Lubicz and Buckminster Fuller and much of what Hurtak is saying becomes quite easy to understand. BOK is principally a work of Esoteric theory.

ermolai's Website

4 Reply by ermolai (edited by ermolai 2004-10-24 16:05:14)

  • From: sw tz rl nd
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: J.J. Hurtak?

Another link about Melchizedek (not just Drunvalo). Mentions Hurtak and even the QFS, although the C's website clearly points to these other sources as disinformation.

http://www.maar.us/mysticism_of_melchizedek.html

Hope no one minds me posting all this as I go through the web... I'm looking forward to see the wiki, it will be an ideal place to post findings about this vast network of disinformation. smile

EDIT: the website has a page about the QFS too which is full of inaccuracies and gross exaggerations. Thus I don't know what to think of this source above.

ermolai's Website

5 Reply by bumblebee (edited by bumblebee 2004-10-25 02:26:08)

  • bumblebee
  • bumblebee
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  • From: tau ceti
  • Registered: 2004-10-18

Re: J.J. Hurtak?

Colleen's article concerning LKJ is lacking, even if only for the lack of sources, unsubstantiated opinion, outdated and in places wrong information. For example she doesn't specifically name the changed prediction dates. And there is no debunking of official Cass explanations. So even if half of it were true, how could the reader check it, as her sources remain anonymous.

Looking into James J. Hurtak i don't find any substance. Water on Mars (it has been in the news), Face on Mars (wasn't that debunked?), Pyramids on Mars, Pyramid mysteries (isn't everyone talking about that?), Jews in Mexico (Mormon alert, wasn't the book of Mormon a scam?); all very interesting, but is it verified independently, has there been independent peer review? I see no discussion about it whatsoever on his site, and therefor I consider his site misleading. Would that qualify as disinformation?
Or is that term reserved for orchestrated intentional disinformation? And if so, what current of disinformation, as there are also different kinds of disinformation by different unrelated parties for different purposes.

Concerning Hurtak's Keys of Knowledge: The Book of Knowledge (1977) given to James J. Hurtak directly by two beings (or was it at first only one?) of Higher Superluminal Intelligence (Ophanim Enoch and Metatron) in 1973. Sure sounds very cool.
It does remind me a bit of how supposedly Moroni gave Joseph Smith the golden plates.

In the book James Hurtak talks about the Council of Nine, Arcturus, Egypt, the Kabala; the whole shebang.
He was not the first, nor the last as the Council was first channeled by Dr D. G. Vinod in the presence of Puharich in 1952 as noted in "The Only Planet of Choice".
Actually James Hurtak worked with Puharich in Lab9, channelling the Nine.

As the folks at Cassiopaea have read The Stargate Conspiracy, perhaps that's one reason they include Hurtak in their own disinformation conspiracy angle. Another reason could be Hurtak's involvement with Merkabah's, Sacred Geometry etc.

With regard to Cassiopaea and their following the tracks of the Stargate Conspiracy one can note that Ra mentions they are the same as the Council of Nine.
All portray themselves to be gestalt entities, social memory complexes and Cassiopaeans at places refer to themselves as having some sort of connection with Ra, and Ra refers to themselves as being the Nine - having links to ancient egypt.

Ra: I am Ra. The Council of Nine has been retained in semi-undistorted form by two main sources, that known in your naming, as Mark and that known in your naming as Henry. In one case, the channel became the scribe. In the other, the channel was not the scribe. However, without the aid of the scribe, the energy would not have come to the channel.
Questioner: The names that you spoke of. Were they Mark Probert and Henry Puharich?
Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.
--Ra Book 1, 1981 jan 25)

Also read:

Fortean Times 126: Plan Nine from Outer Space
The Giza Enigma: A Legacy from the Past
From SpiritWeb: The Keys of Enoch, introduction
http://web.archive.org/web/200212130542 … enoch.html

the eyes of truth are always watching you
  • From: sw tz rl nd
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: J.J. Hurtak?

Thank you very much bumblebee. Puharich and the Council of Nine leads to many many connections, some of which I'm still exploring. It's getting darker and darker. The latest thing I came across is this text, which feels very true for some things and false for others, but either way definitely worth a read.

As for Ra being part of the Council of Nine, this is quite surprising, and I do wonder if this is not due to the chanellers' unwillingness to look at the dark side. After all on the transcripts I do not see Ra saying precisely that they are part of this Council? They could very well know that they had a negative agenda but not talk about it for respect of freewill? Also the C's article on Stargate Conspiracy points out that the message of Ra is VERY different from the one of Council of Nine, and that negative entities/groups have an habit of hiding themselves behind names of existing positive entities/groups.

I don't know... It's true that Ra's egyptian connection had always bothered me a bit. I do remember now that Ra admits somewhere that "it" has made mistakes in the "past" (by sharing information with people who used it to enslave others) and that "it" has returned now to correct them somehow. Some kind of karmic thing. I feel this is a possibility. According to quite a few texts, the first Egyptian civilization was quite positive but then all the following ones were increasingly controlled by dark forces.

ermolai's Website

  • montalk
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Re: J.J. Hurtak?

Hurtak does come off as a modern-day Schwaller deLubicz, at least in the depth of his occultic and esoteric research. I don't consider him a lightweight flake by any means. I also personally know he has recently moved most of his library into a bomb shelter to survive any upcoming wars and earth changes. Quite a mysterious guy.

Here is an interesting annecdote of an encounter with Hurtak:
http://www.viewzone.com/tells-all30.html

Also see this article: http://www.azothgallery.com/caezza_fulcanelli_rev.html for info about deLubicz's connection with Fulcanelli. The book "Al-Kemi" by Andre VanDenBroeck explains how Fulcanelli stole his material for "Mystere de Cathedrales" from deLubicz. The article has some excerpts from the book.

As for the Council of Nine and channelled sources referring to themselves by Egyptian deity names, not all are equally pure and well intentioned. One of the problems I had with "The Stargate Conspiracy" is that it tried linking the Ra Material with the Puharich/Cointelpro stuff through tentative connections that don't hold up when investigated.

Puharich using hypnotized subjects to channel the council, as explained in the Stargate Conspiracy, may have tapped into a corrupted or even programmed/fabricated source.  Puharich certainly didn't follow the protocol necessary for establishing a secure channel as the Ra group did. I'd imagine govt psyops and higher density STS would have an interest in generating or co-opting channelled material for control and experimental purposes. The nature of the material itself - more so than the name - is what matters. There's a drastic difference between the Ra Material and what was generated by Puharich and Phyllis Schlemmer.

Here is some Ra info about the Council:

RaMaterial wrote:

Questioner: I have a question about that Council. Who are the members, and how does the Council function?

Ra: I am Ra. The members of the Council are representatives from the Confederation and from those vibratory levels of your inner planes bearing responsibility for your third density. The names are not important because there are no names. Your mind/body/spirit complexes request names and so, in many cases, the vibratory sound complexes which are consonant with the vibratory distortions of each entity are used. However, the name concept is not part of the Council. If names are requested, we will attempt them. However, not all have chosen names.

In number, the Council that sits in constant session, though varying in its members by means of balancing, which takes place, what you would call irregularly, is nine. That is the Session Council. To back up this Council, there are twenty-four entities which offer their services as requested. These entities faithfully watch and have been called Guardians.

The Council operates by means of, what you would call, telepathic contact with the oneness or unity of the nine, the distortions blending harmoniously so that the Law of One prevails with ease. When a need for thought is present, the Council retains the distortion-complex of this need, balancing it as described, and then recommends what it considers as appropriate action. This includes: One, the duty of admitting social memory complexes to the Confederation; Two, offering aid to those who are unsure how to aid the social memory complex requesting aid in a way consonant with both the call, the Law, and the number of those calling (that is to say, sometimes the resistance of the call); Three, internal questions in the Council are determined.

These are the prominent duties of the Council. They are, if in any doubt, able to contact the twenty-four who then offer consensus/judgment/thinking to the Council. The Council then may reconsider any question.

Questioner: You mentioned the nine who sit on the Council. Is this “nine“? the same nine as those mentioned in this book? (Questioner gestures to Uri.)

Ra: I am Ra. The Council of Nine has been retained in semi-undistorted form by two main sources, that known in your naming, as Mark and that known in your naming as Henry. In one case, the channel became the scribe. In the other, the channel was not the scribe. However, without the aid of the scribe, the energy would not have come to the channel.

Questioner: The names that you spoke of. Were they Mark Probert and Henry Puharich?

Ra: I am Ra. This is correct.

----

Questioner: How were you able to make the transition from Venus? Did you have to change your dimension to walk upon the Earth?

Ra: I am Ra. You will remember the exercise of the wind. The dissolution into nothingness is the dissolution into unity, for there is no nothingness. From the sixth dimension, we are capable of manipulating, by thought, the intelligent infinity present in each particle of light or distorted light so that we were able to clothe ourselves in a replica visible in the third density of our mind/body/spirit complexes in the sixth density. We were allowed this experiment by the Council which guards this planet.

Questioner: Where is this Council located?

Ra: I am Ra. This Council is located in the octave, or eighth dimension, of the planet Saturn, taking its place in an area which you understand in third-dimension terms as the rings.

So according to the Ra material, the Council of Nine was channeled in a partially corrupted way by Puharich and his instruments. The council is a higher density oversight committee guarding over the evolutionary development of this sector of the universe, from which the Ra social memory complex required permission before interacting directly with humans in the ancient past. In other words, judging from the way Ra referred to the Council, it doesn't appear they are actually part of the Council.

There is some correlating info in the Cass material:

Q: (L) During a previous reading we asked several questions
about Jesus of Nazareth known as the Christ. The question
was asked: "Was Jesus special, that is, Christed, in some
way?" The answer came back was: "Quick exalted; wars;
civil entrancement. Zindar council." I would like to know the
meaning of these references.
A: Quick exalted refers to a sudden boost of awareness level
as related to your previous questions about knowledge.
Sometimes that acquisition can occur in a surge and
sometimes this is referred to as illumination. Jesus acquired his
knowledge by having complete faith in his ability to acquire
the knowledge from a higher source. This faith caused an
equal balancing interaction with higher sources, which allowed
him to gain supreme knowledge simply by having that faith.
Remember that the resources for the acquisition of knowledge
in the space/time ere of Christ were much more limited than
they are now. There were few options open for acquiring true
knowledge except total and complete faith. And this one was
instilled with the awareness that total and complete faith
would cause dramatic and spectacular acquisition of
knowledge; also would cause dramatic and spectacular
progression of the soul being. Therefore, the faith was felt, the
knowledge was received.
Q: (L) What was the source of the knowledge?
A: The source was the sixth level of density which is where
we reside and we also were involved in that as well.
Q: (L) What does the term "Civil entrancement" mean?
A: Civil entrancement is a complete balancing of one's useful
energies to a level where there is no experiencing of over
balancing on the positive or negative side which is preferable
for meditation in a mass form.
Q: (L) What is the Zendar Council?
A: Zendar Council is a sixth level density council which spans
both physical and ethereal realms and which oversees
dramatic development points at various civilizational sectors in
lower density levels.
-----
Q: (L) Are there such things as angels?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Are angels as they have been described: very tall,
beautiful beings with wings or whatever?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) Who are the angels?
A: Refer to the transcript.
Q: (L) I don't think we have ever mentioned angels in the
transcript.
A: Not by name. See the second session. [The Zendar or
Zindar Council?]
-------
Q: (L) Could you tell us the names of all the planets, their
distances from the sun, the chemical composition, and the
diameter.
A: Mercury=Opatanar, 36 million miles from Sun; 3000 mi
diameter. Venus=Pemuntar, 67 million miles from Sun; 7,500
mi. diameter. Earth=Saras, 93 million miles from Sun; 7,900
mi. dia. Mars=Masar, 141,500,000 miles from Sun; 4,200
mi. dia. Jupiter=Yontar, 483,400,000 miles from Sun; 88,700
dia. Saturn=Zendar, 886,700,000 miles from Sun; 74,500
dia...,

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

montalk's Website

  • From: zerone
  • Registered: 2004-08-16

Re: J.J. Hurtak?

ok, sorry im not too familiar with these names but Melchizedeck (sp) rang a bell.

"Nothing in this book is true, but its exactly how things are" by Bob Frissell
he talks alot about melchizedeck and Drunvalo.

is this to be considered disinformation and please state why.

thanks
z

"...i was taken by the hand, from the ocean to the sand..."
nitin sawhney - 'eastern eyes'

zonabi's Website

9 Reply by bumblebee (edited by bumblebee 2004-11-03 14:58:24)

  • bumblebee
  • bumblebee
  • interdimensional intelligence analyst
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  • From: tau ceti
  • Registered: 2004-10-18

Re: J.J. Hurtak?

montalk wrote:

As for the Council of Nine and channelled sources referring to themselves by Egyptian deity names, not all are equally pure and well intentioned. One of the problems I had with "The Stargate Conspiracy" is that it tried linking the Ra Material with the Puharich/Cointelpro stuff through tentative connections that don't hold up when investigated.

What was investigated by whom and what didn't hold up according to whom? Are you sure this is the case? It seems to me to be the case that the Ra material is not explicitly or implicitly critical toward the Puharich/Probert's Council of the Nine.

I'd imagine govt psyops and higher density STS would have an interest in generating or co-opting channelled material for control and experimental purposes.

A interesting idea, but as the Ra material was produced later then the Council of Nine material, it doesn't seem to be the case.

The nature of the material itself - more so than the name - is what matters.

Very true.

montalk wrote:

Ra: I am Ra. The Council of Nine has been retained in semi-undistorted form by two main sources, that known in your naming, as Mark and that known in your naming as Henry. In one case, the channel became the scribe. In the other, the channel was not the scribe. However, without the aid of the scribe, the energy would not have come to the channel.

So according to the Ra material, the Council of Nine was channeled in a partially corrupted way by Puharich and his instruments.

a few notes concerning this:
* SEMI-undistorted does not exactly equal partially-corrupted.
* this doesn't suggest anything about whether the Ra material is less or more (un)distorted then Puharich/Probert's Nine. Ra doesn't comment specifically critical on The Nine. only the Cass group after reading the stargate conspiracy and the VB encounter becomes highly critical about The Nine and everything from Egypt.
* Puharich worked with a lot of mediums concerning the Council of Nine, it could be that some Council of Nine incarnations are not the same as other Council of Nine incarnations. Note that the Phyllis Schlemmer the C's commented on in 970412 was a different medium then the Mark Probert Ra commented on.

montalk wrote:

The council is a higher density oversight committee guarding over the evolutionary development of this sector of the universe, from which the Ra social memory complex required permission before interacting directly with humans in the ancient past. In other words, judging from the way Ra referred to the Council, it doesn't appear they are actually part of the Council.

I stand corrected, although one can note certain similarities between Ra and the Council of Nine and the C's in all three cosmologies (collective consciousnesses residing in a certain dimension, social memory complexes), as you noted according to Ra they are distinct entities sharing the same Ra universe.
The Council of Nine itself doesn't specifically mention Ra and has a different cosmology. The C's also have a different cosmology, bear some resemblance to Ra and place themselves at the same 6th density as the Zendar (Saturn) council. Which according to Ra is similar to the Council of Nine.
I wonder if the Ra or C social memory complexes could be part of this Saturn Council as Ra mentioned "asking permission" of this council and The Council of Nine themselves refer to the council here:

Council of Nine wrote:

"Tom: In relationship to The Council of Nine there are 24 physical civilisations, in another dimensional realm. Each is a total collective consciousness that oversees a particular area of interest. From each civilisation physical beings have incarnated upon your Planet Earth, and at times have intervened, when necessary. These physical civilisations, the Twenty-Four, each in its own dimension, are total and complete units of one collective consciousness. They have evolved to that form of action to oversee the Universe, to pass through information of great importance and to help other physical civilisations in their evolutionary process."
-- From: About the Council of Nine, Review from Kindred Spirit magazine, Vol.2 No.11, 1993

It reminds one a bit about the theosophical planetary and solar system hierarchies/governing bodies.
Who's who? Difficult to say with discarnate entities, which are also difficult to seperate from the human medium/mind.

the eyes of truth are always watching you
  • montalk
  • montalk
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Re: J.J. Hurtak?

Bumblebee wrote:

What was investigated by whom and what didn't hold up according to whom? Are you sure this is the case? It seems to me to be the case that the Ra material is not explicitly or implicitly critical toward the Puharich/Probert's Council of the Nine.

In "The Stargate Conspiracy", Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince investigated whether the Ra Material was a product of CIA mind-control experiments. Or more accurately, they came to that conclusion after coming across several reasons why this may be so in the course of their research into Puharich. I said in my last post that this conclusion was invalid but didn't go into detail as to why. I am sure of this because their logic is faulty on several grounds and their conclusion is based on incomplete information.

First, they discuss at length the shady history of Puharich, namely his involvement in CIA experiments regarding altered states of consciousness, his military research into psychic phenomena, and his interest in developing remote voice-to-skull beaming technologies. Then we have the Ra group using trance to tap into channelled messages. With Puharich having met the Ra group, it would therefore appear that the Ra Material was the product of the military beaming messages into Carla Rueckert's head during trance states. That the Ra Material began shortly after Puharich visited makes this seem so. In truth, the Ra Material began in January of 1981 and they met with Puharich in 1977/78 so it wasn't exactly "shortly" thereafter. There's lots that can happen in between.

Secondly, the Council of Nine which Puharich helped tap into via his hypnotized subjects called themselves the nine enneads of heliopolis, the nine gods of Egyptian mythology. "The Stargate Conspiracy" then says, "Don Elkins and Carla Rueckert of L/L Research had (through Carla) made contact with Ra, one of the Nine, though significantly only after meeting Puharich."  There are a couple twists in that statement. One is that by definition, the god "Ra" was indeed one of the nine major Egyptian gods, but that the Council of Nine included the god "Ra" as one of their members does not necessarily mean that the "Ra" channelled by Carla was the same source Puharich tapped into. To say "Ra, one of the Nine" is kind of misleading as it was in direct context of Puharich's Nine.

Who is to say that Puharich didn't arrive or associate with the Ra group due to his interest in such phenomena at large, which Ruckert/McCarty/Elkins had already been doing long prior to Puharich's arrival? Or perhaps he was sent in at a critical time when real contact was about to be made with an actual higher density source? Judging by the way Puharich and the govt worked, there would be just as much interest in investigating genuine phenomena as there would be in faking it for COINTELPRO purposes.

Third, it was mentioned in the book that Puharich's subject committed suicide. That Don Elkins committed suicide in 1984 was supposed to show he was likewise a puppet of Puharich, even though it was Carla who did the channeling and then in a manner unlike the Council of Nine channelers who merely repeated the voices they heard in their heads. The actual story behind Don Elkins's suicide is a sad tale that shows dynamics at play different from those surmised by Picknett and Prince.  It can be found here: http://www.llresearch.org/transcripts/i … book_5.htm



One problem I had with Picknett and Prince is that by wanting to keep it 'journalistic' and 'academic' and 'credible' they refuse to acknowledge the hyperdimensional aspect , thereby becoming vulnerable to the deceptive aspect of same. Also, what I see in Picknett and Prince is an arrogant agnostic intellect unable to distinguish the finer subtleties of hyperdimensional phenomena, thereby throwing out the baby with the bathwater. They see red and green as two shades of gray and throw out the apples with the leaves. Maybe they thought they had it all figured out, especially since they came to the conclusion at the end that all ancient interactions with gods and nonhuman intelligences were the product of drug trips. I sensed they were biased in their handling of the Ra case due to a lack of understanding. They referred to the Ra complexity of language as "very proper godlike disdain for mere earthly grammar and syntax" not understanding the necessity of it.

They put down the idea of extraterrestrial communications and use Ockam's Razor to make the simple untruth more probable than the more complicated/fantastic truth.

Stargate Conspiracy wrote:

Don Elkins himself had earlier experimented with methods of 'fabricating' contactees. He took over a hundred subjects, who had no prior knowledge of UFOs, and under hypnosis made them channell extraterrestrials, then compared the reesults with the words of those who claimed to be genuinely in touch with such entities. He found that the 'fabricated' messages were very similar to the 'real' ones. Elkins then leaped to the rather unscientific conclusion that this proved the reality of the extraterrestrial contact, and that contactees were not 'chosen', but that anybody could do it if in the right altered and receptive state of consciousness. (Of course it could be argued that his data proved the opposite, demonstrating that the extraterrestrial channeling is a pathological phenomenon, and that it is never 'real'). Interestingly, several of Elkins's 'fabricated' contactees subsequently claimed UFO experiences. This seems very similar to Puharich's own research.

---

bumblebee wrote:

SEMI-undistorted does not exactly equal partially-corrupted.

Glass half empty, glass half full. Part undistorted = part distorted. Since distortion = corruption and semi = part, part undistorted = semi-corrupted. If it's not fully pure, then it's partially not pure, right? At least enough to mention.

bumblebee wrote:

this doesn't suggest anything about whether the Ra material is less or more (un)distorted then Puharich/Probert's Nine.

Right, except that the Council of Nine as channelled by Puharich/Probert were distorted enough to mention as being only "semi" undistorted. For a full tally of which is less distorted, you have to assess the material itself. My vote goes to the Ra Material.

bumblebee wrote:

Ra doesn't comment specifically critical on The Nine.

No different from their comments on anything else, which tend to be very neutral or matter of fact. In this case, the most they said about Puharich/Probert's Council of Nine is that they were retained in a semi-undistorted manner. The Ra Material as a whole is lacking in the critical component. You won't find the word "corrupt" anywhere in it. Just more neutral euphemisms like "distorted"...

bumblebee wrote:

only the Cass group after reading the stargate conspiracy and the VB encounter becomes highly critical about The Nine and everything from Egypt.

That's good, although in a way it shows the ease at which people can be turned away from sorting wheat from chaff toward the easier solution of blanket dismissal of anything labelled intellectually contraband. It was Picknett and Prince who later lumped the Cass stuff into the same category as Puharich/Ra/Nine.

I've read the Nine material and despite some good stuff there is much of it neither consistent nor practical nor supported by my personal experience or intuition, in contrast to the C and Ra material.

As for the egyptian stuff, yes it forms an essential core to the cosmic COINTELPRO agenda and I see it popping up repeatedly in disinformation sources. Picknett and Prince said that other sources mentioning Atlantis are in the same boat...as if Atlantis were a government-invented term. Sometimes names are names, and it's the way in which they are used, or the material the factual content of their reference that matters.

It's just as faulty to go nuts about egypt as it is to throw it all out. The agenda is known to use two false dichotomies to pass through a lie. For example, generate lots of channelled crappola, associate it with legitimate stuff, then knock it all down as being bunk. Those who see the crappola for what it is but are unable or unwilling to to discern the legitimate stuff seemingly tied to it, are just as gullible as the flakes.

bumblebee wrote:

Puharich worked with a lot of mediums concerning the Council of Nine, it could be that some Council of Nine incarnations are not the same as other Council of Nine incarnations. Note that the Phyllis Schlemmer the C's commented on in 970412 was a different medium then the Mark Probert Ra commented on.

Considering what it takes to get a pure channel and how easily it is corrupted, considering the direct ties the Council of Nine material has to Puharich, and considering the dubious ways in which the Council was later channelled, there's no doubt in my mind that if there ever was genuine contact, it disappeared in short time. In the end it got pretty crazy with people channelling the discarnate remnants of people who first channelled the Nine.

bumblebee wrote:

Who's who? Difficult to say with discarnate entities, which are also difficult to seperate from the human medium/mind.

The best one can do is stick with a working hypothesis until it no longer works, then get one that works until next time.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

montalk's Website

  • From: istanbul
  • Registered: 2004-05-13

Re: J.J. Hurtak?

Again I'm very behind from the old threads, but I just finished Stargate Conspiracy. Great book! Really eye-opener. I realized something while reading though, this "council of nine" may go way back than the writers think. The first I read about this council, muslims holy book Quran came to my mind. Check these verses:

Surah 37: The Rangers
6. Surely We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment, the stars
7. And there is a safeguard against every rebellious Shaitan (demon)
8. They cannot listen to the Exalted Assembly and they are thrown at from every side
9. Being driven off and for them is a perpetual chastisement,
10. Except him who snatches off but once (from the Exalted Assembly), then there follows him a brightly shining flame

translation of 10 from another source: 10. Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.


The most interesting thing comes when one reads the Turkish translation. In Turkish version the Exalted Assembly (whatever they are) are translated as a Council. Verse 8 says: "They cannot listen to the Holy Council however they try.." and verse 10 says: "If one can steal a word from the Holy Council..."

Now, this is interesting. Are we totally at the hands of this Council Nine from the beginning as an experiment, or is this only a "coincidence"? Quran does not say anything further about the Council, whether they are nine or whatever. But there is some "nine story" going on in some verses, saying that God has given Moses nine signs/miracles (e.g. The Israelites Surah 101. "And certainly We gave Musa (Moses) nine clear signs, so ask the children of Israel.." But this nine sign may be something else, I haven't checked Old Testament for it.


Maybe Andrija Puharich was after some very big thing, even bigger than Picknett/Prince thought of.
But as Bumblebee wrote, it's difficult to say who's who in this mess.

Change we must, to live again
- Jon Anderson

12 Reply by Barefoot Doc (edited by Barefoot Doc 2005-09-04 03:05:34)

  • From: England
  • Registered: 2005-04-20

Re: J.J. Hurtak?

Very interesting thread, my gut feelings with regard to council of nine and others is fasination with external reflected light and ego created thought form hiarchies (second order entities, humans are first order)

i don't agree with all that Steve Gamble writes but his take on the symbology of the number 9 and its link to cults and channelings/created thoughtforms is interesting  seems relevent to this discussion.


Exerpt from http://www.equilibra.uk.com/shop2.shtml

1080 is the average number of human breaths drawn per hour, another nine. 1080 is also linked with the energy of The Mother, in her various forms as Diana etc., and the lunar energy. Interestingly the radius of the Moon is 1080 miles. Amazingly, the Moon has always been associated with the colour of Silver, whose atomic weight is 108 - nine yet again!  If we look at the number 666 - the sum of the numbers 1-36 (nine) - to some people it represents the Devil, the Mark of the Beast. The Book of Revelation relates this number to the Apocalypse, which is again linked to natural disasters. Could this be what is encoded in the Book of Revelation? Some numerological memory of the instability of the Earth and its vulnerability to outside forces, such as may have altered the ancient 360 day cycle in the pre-Judaic times? To other people, however, this number represents the energy of the Father, the Solar Energy. If we add 1080 and 666 together they equal 1746, which to some represents the Grail, the Seed and the Vessel, the totality of creation. A nine number. 1746 is also deemed by some as being related to the Earth’s Electromagnetic Grid.
Another notable nine number - 72 - is the average number of heartbeats per minute, the number of stones of the pyramid of the Freemasonic Great Seal of the American Dollar. Cabbalists have various ways of writing the name of God, Yod Heh Vav Heh. One of them consists of a triangle in which the name is written in blazing letters. The numerical value of Yod is ten, that of Heh five and that of Vav six.  The sum of the numerical value of the letters in the triangle is seventy-two (72) and seventy-two is the number of the Shem hamephorash (translated as the 'explicit name'), the seventy-two angels that govern the universe. [ Mikhael Aivanhov - Cosmic Balance, published by Prosveta S.A. - B.P.12 - 83601 Frejus CEDEX (France)]. 72, therefore, is the Cabbalistic number for the Names or Powers of God and is said in Cabbalistic tradition, for that very reason, to be the number represented by the Star of David (hexagram), which we have already seen is fundamentally connected to the geometry and numerology of the cosmic cycles that are based upon nine.

186,282 is the maximum speed of light in miles per second, which represents the fastest speed achievable in the physical universe. There are 4,320,000 years in the Mahayuga, the Hindu cosmic time cycle. Both nine numbers. We have a gestation period of nine months for a human birth, surely a clear indication of nine being symbolically representative of the physical aspect of creation Moreover, within our solar system there are nine physical planets in orbit around their spiritual centre - the sun.
Nine is made up of and contains all the other numbers or all the other vibrations and would appear to be represented in many geometrical shapes. As mentioned in part one, on an energy level of creation, the level of the Ahnu (ether/spirit), Nature does not work in angles. Only in the physical world where the ether/energy/spirit animates matter, do we see these geometric shapes form. Geometric shapes are what Man sees and perceives with his intellect as being the source of creation, when they merely represent the end result. Can we assume for simplicity that all the numbers one to nine are different vibrations, as numerology would have us believe? Can we further assume that all the numbers, or vibrations, which make up the nine, are, therefore, all the various vibrations of the universe in a physical sense? That is the inert part – matter - the 0.0001% of who and what everything is, as Bruce Cathie speculated?

Accepting this, we can also accept that the physical and the intellect can go no further because once it becomes nine we know it will only keep on repeating itself. The vibration of nine is the limit of physical creation; just as the speed of light - a nine - is the limit of speed in the physical universe. Could this be therefore, the number of Man in a physical and intellectual sense? This is what the Book of Revelation tells us - that 666 (nine) is the number of (a) man. Therefore the number of the Beast is the number of Man; that is, Man is confined by the number to being a beast - i.e. to expressing the baser aspects of the self. Nine is the limit of the ego, the limit of the intellect. Nine is a vibrational prison, as it can be no other than what it is, a vibration which keeps repeating itself and like the speed of light cannot be physically or intellectually transcended.
Is this another example of the Cabbalistic inversion of making the material and intellectual plane superimpose itself upon the archetypal symbol of the transcendent spiritual One Source (Ten) and therefore causing the followers of the Nine to lock into the material and intellectual plane (imbalance), rather than the true divine spirit (balance)? Another interesting aspect of the Council of Nine is that they all are male, or at least no female goddess such as Isis or Nut have been ‘channelled’ by the ‘receivers’. This also gives an indication of the quasi-religious derivation of the Council, as many religions have, since their inception, demonised or entirely removed the feminine from the state of Godhead, as was natural in the early ‘pagan’ religious philosophies understood in ancient Egypt. In many religions the early priests took Egyptian and Mesopotamian religious ideas based upon their mother/father/son/daughter god polytheism and wove them into a purely patriarchal (monotheistic) religion based upon fear, with which the priesthood controlled their nations (populous) as the spokespeople for their God. After all, the female energy would be an obstacle for the male ego energy to obtaining only that which the male energy knows and perceives as being the answer - that is dominance and control over all that it sees. The male energy without the balance of the female energy is imbalanced and inflexible, it is the intellect, the ego, the will and the desire to continue to drive forward without reason to the destruction and death of all else - the chaotic part of the storm.

t is no coincidence that both the ten and the sun/fire/spirit are symbolically represented as being one and the same. Numerologically speaking, the vibration of the inner Ten which creates everything is the Spirit, Ether, the inner sun and the inner fire, which creates life and animates matter and animates all the other numbers (vibrations of matter), so we can experience the physical reality we have created.

Ten, being the Source of all there IS, the Oneness of Everything must, therefore, be represented in the physical aspect of creation in order for it to experience itself. After all, what exists outside of us is merely a reflection of what lies within. Ten/spirit must be represented somewhere within physical reality, otherwise there would be no physical reality at all. And it is. All we need to do is to stop looking up and out into the stars and the heavens for a moment and look down. Look down at our hands and what do we see? Ten fingers. If we look further down we see ten toes. Realise we are the TEN, we are the ;. We have always been the ;  SPIRIT/TEN. We have just forgotten that’s all.

For another take on this from a differnet angle see Geradus's article "we created our own spooks"
http://www.soulwise.net/26f-wco.htm

Its not like we are fractions of the whole but rather versions of the whole.
  • From: istanbul
  • Registered: 2004-05-13

Re: J.J. Hurtak?

Looking at this page, I can see there is a lot going on about the coming changes. The channeling references here are exactly the ones that Stargate Conspiracy talks about. So the game is progressing.

But.... there is one more thing. There is a thread here as "conspiracy conspiracy". What if some of the misinformation claims are misinformation? This is a complex system where there's no black or white. Yes we may say the best is to "follow our own heart" but how do we know the voice of our own heart is not stimulated/manipulated from outside? Is the chicken from the egg or the egg from the chicken? And beyond all of these; isn't everything illusion? David Icke's latest book is: Love Is the Only Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion which I agree the latter part. But this has no practical value for our aspects living here in 3D.

A really exciting game we have here smile

Change we must, to live again
- Jon Anderson

14 Reply by Barefoot Doc (edited by Barefoot Doc 2005-09-06 05:14:36)

  • From: England
  • Registered: 2005-04-20

Re: J.J. Hurtak?

feritciva wrote:

Looking at this page, I can see there is a lot going on about the coming changes. The channeling references here are exactly the ones that Stargate Conspiracy talks about. So the game is progressing.

The game is progressing, one thing comes to mind about all this.
remember Bush's chillings words "we have a calling from beyond the stars"
see http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2 … stars.html

From beyond the stars"
"I hear the Crawling Chaos that calls from beyond the stars" - The Necronomicon
"We have a calling from beyond the stars" - George W. Bush, January 19, 2005

fertciva wrote:

But.... there is one more thing. There is a thread here as "conspiracy conspiracy". What if some of the misinformation claims are misinformation? This is a complex system where there's no black or white. Yes we may say the best is to "follow our own heart" but how do we know the voice of our own heart is not stimulated/manipulated from outside? Is the chicken from the egg or the egg from the chicken? And beyond all of these; isn't everything illusion? David Icke's latest book is: Love Is the Only Truth, Everything Else Is Illusion which I agree the latter part. But this has no practical value for our aspects living here in 3D.

IMO the egg and the chicken are one, the one is fractal hologram of the other, all i can say is who is the one that observes all this?
Reality is illusion and illusion is reality, we are the masters who make the grass green and the sky blue.
How do we know if our heart is not manipulated from outside?
good question, we live inside something (the creater, the matrix, 3d, the infinite mind etc) and assume its all outside of us, we create and get lost in our creations, we create things that unbalance us and that become a "reality", we create the "outside of us" which takes on a life of its own. If we accept that the outside world is the end result of creation and is a reflection of the inner reality then we are corrupting the outside world by our inner thoughts and belief systems and nonsense we subscribe to.
Steve Gamble put it like this
If a tree wanted to find out where it came from it would have to look wihin to the seed that created it, it will never find out by looking for the answer outside of itself.

Its not like we are fractions of the whole but rather versions of the whole.
  • From: The Singularity
  • Registered: 2005-09-23

Re: J.J. Hurtak?

I think it is important to remember that no single human source is 100% accurate, and that ideas are evolving along with us.

When evaluating a potential "disinformation agent" always use your discernment. 

The goal of true 'disinformation agents' is to get people to think that anybody else with a message of truth is really the 'disinformation agent' and they will focus on the one or two parts of the message that is distorted and use that to discredit the entire body of information.

Always always pay as much attention to what is NOT being said as to what is actually said.

Personally I have found Hurtak's work to be of minimal value in practical application to my life, though it is interesting. 

I have a good friend who knows both Dan and Drunvalo personally, and she would vouch for their character as human beings.  As far as their writing goes, well, not all of us were gifted with the ability to communicate clearly.

I can't spend more than five minutes with Dan Winter's work before I get frazzled and move to something else.  But that doesn't mean that his ideas are incorrect, or PURPOSIVELY misleading. 

Drunvalo's Flower of Life books I have found to be of immense value in providing seed thoughts that I have built upon in my own investigations.  I don't think the books were ever meant to be complete, or conclusive, as an intellectual work.

It is not for us to understand love, but simply to make space for it.