• Registered: 2005-03-07

Topic: Correlation between the Asian Three Tan Tiens and the Gnostic Centres

I've been reflecting for some time on the relation of the Asian Tan Tiens (the energy centers focusd upon in Chi Kung) and the chakra system of the Hindu texts that were copied into New Age literature.

At first I tried to interpret the Asian Tan Tien centers as chakras--since they were roughly located in the same place in the body/aura.  I reasoned that for the Far Eastern peoples that different chakras (and different numbers of chakras) were emphasized because of the difference in their culture.  And, I reasoned, because of the differences in culture, they tuned into (felt, saw and knew) the energy body in a wholly different way than Western peoples.

I feel a clearer picture is coming into view now of the spiritual anatomy. 

I recently downloaded Mouravieff's "Gnosis" (the first book) and was delighted to read about the esoteric three centres of the intellectual, the emotional and the motor.  The presentation smacked me with the impression that maybe they are analagous to the Asian Three Tan Tiens.

It's merely a theory now--and not a particularly well-informed one, I admit, since I am unfamiliar with the Asian energy body system other than a few Chi Kung workout videos and Lower Tan Tien exercises that I've encountered in books.

Here, however, is an article on the three Tan Tiens from a Taoist website.  For those of you familiar with the esoteric three centres that Mouravieff describes, see if you notice any similarities.

(Here's the link: http://www.jadedragon.com/archives/tao_ … hi21.html)

Part 2--Beyond Ch'i:   Body Energy Frequencies in Traditional Chinese Alchemy
By Dimitri Kostynick

"Another aspect of the Chinese view of anatomical function concerns the tan tiens. Anyone who has trained in an Asian martial art has been exposed to the tan tien ("hara" in Japanese and "tan den" in Korean). Many westerners have a difficult time with this. At the most basic level, it is the region in the lower torso which the west recognizes as the balance point of the body. That is the point which if you lean past going forward, the shifting center of gravity pulls you forward. Many people describe it as a "point" two-finger widths below the navel. The problem with that is that it tends to give the student an impression that it is in the front of the body.

In actuality, the tan tien is a region in the center of the lower torso. A more accurate means of finding the balance point is by drawing intersecting lines through the torso. One line is drawn from front to back at the point just below the navel. Perhaps more importantly is a second line drawn from left to right through the center of the hips. Where these two lines meet is the region of the tan tien. It is a region that includes parts of the small intestine, bladder, and womb.

The written character for tan tien has two parts. The first, "tan," is often translated as cinnabar. This is not the older understanding. Tan refers to the practice of alchemy. The Taoist alchemical quest served to refine the physical body into a more spiritual vehicle which would, in a transformed state, "survive" physical death. This quest for physical immortality was the historical basis of Taoist practice, later to influence all Chinese practices such as medicine and martial arts. The translation as cinnabar is metaphorical since cinnabar (an ore of mercury) was a toxic element used in the preparation of potions and formulae ingested by the adept. In this sense, the practice of the "external" alchemy was the same as the practice in Europe that led to modern chemistry.

The second part, "tien," translates as field or region. Typically, martial arts tend to refer to the tan tien as a solitary entity. In the alchemical tradition, there are three recognized tan tiens or centers. They are not the same as the better known chakra system from India. The tan tien in the lower abdomen is the lower or first tan tien. It correlates with the ching, as described in part one of this article.

The middle or second tan tien resides in the center of the chest in the region of the solar plexus. This correlates with the frequency of the ch'i.

The upper or third tan tien is in the head. It is directly analogous to the western "third eye" and correlates to the shen. Again, while most people describe the location as being between the eyebrows and/or the center of the forehead, this is misleading since it tends to draw attention to the front of the skull. The region is located in the center of the skull, as the lower tan tien is located in the center of the abdomen.

The tan tiens comprise an important part of the overall anatomical structure of the body which is not utilized by acupuncture. They are not used partially because of the differing frequencies, and partially because the regions are in the center of the body far too deep to be activated by needles. That is the reason tan tiens are often not even mentioned in acupuncture texts.

This presents another difference between the traditional alchemical anatomy and that of acupuncture. Acupuncture defines the organ/meridian system of the "triple warmer" or "three heaters" as being the three parts of the digestive system which include the stomach and small and large intestines. However, these organs each have their own meridian. Classical alchemy defines the three heaters as the three tan tiens. This not only allows for pulse diagnosis of the physical/psychic functions not otherwise possible, but also integrates the spiritual/psychic processes with the physical body. This raises the question of why the use of the terms "burners" or "heaters?"

The three tan tiens are the physical stations of the alchemical process. Traditionally, in the region of the lower tan tien is a cauldron. In the cauldron is found the energy we are born with. Through the practices of internal cultivation, two events occur. One is the amount of the energy increases. The second is the cultivation creates an alchemical "fire" under the cauldron. This causes the energy to heat, bubble, and boil, until it spills out of the cauldron and begins to circulate throughout the body. This ching refines the ch'i in the second tan tien. The on-going alchemical process causes the ch'i to refine to shen associated with the upper tan tien. The process continues with the shen being refined into the shu–"the emptiness."

The refinement of the internal energies is an ongoing process. Since it does not require exertion of the external musculature, it is well suited for older people and continues throughout a lifetime. Classically, in the martial arts, practitioners who focus on the external techniques (especially extreme moves such as jump spinning back kicks) in their youth transition away from those to internal cultivation as they age.

Old age is not a barrier to internal cultivation. There is truth in the classic image of an ancient-looking, seemingly frail old master defeating a younger opponent with little or no apparent effort. Part of this is a sense of yin and yong (sometimes called yang). As the yong of youth wanes, the yin of age increases. As the external musculature decreases, the internal abilities increase–if you train systematically and consistently. Since the internal correlates with the yin/receptive, there is no limit to its potential. The true hallmark of martial prowess and general balance is longevity."

A student of Taoism and the martial arts since 1974, Dimitri Kostynick is available for classes and private instruction in the San Diego area. Dimitri can be emailed at livingdragon@prodigy.net.

**

(Here's another link about the three Tan Tiens:
http://www.universal-tao.com/article/three_minds.html)


...I also wanted to direct anybody interested to the book "Light Emerging" by Barbara Ann Brennan.  This is a book on healing written by a strong clairvoyant.  In it, she discusses the four levels of human beings: the body level, the auric level, the Haric level, and the "Core Star" level.  The discusses the "Haric" level (Hara is the Japanese rendering for the Lower Tan Tien, meaning "belly" or "stomach" according to freedict.com) as a level of energy DEEPER than the aura of the traditional seven primary chakras. 

She includes in the Haric level, the Tan Tien (abdomen center), what she calls the Soul's Seat in the upper chest, and what she calls the ID point (Individuation point) above the head.  So her "ID point" doesn't exactly match up with the spiritual anatomical views of Taoists, as far as I know--but interestingly, elsewhere in the book she describes advanced states of the Third Eye in a way that sounds very much like descriptions of the Upper Tan Tien in the center of the head.

The ID point she speaks about I've been taught about in meditation classes.  It was presented to me as an "eighth" chakra and, similarly, as the energy center that links you to your Higher Self moving "up," and the center that's the door into your individuality at this time moving "down."

Her interpretation that there is a vibratory level of being DEEPER than the aura, however, I think explains a lot of the confusion about the chakras and/or centers.  It's possible that different clairvoyants at different times have been tapping into different vibratory levels.  And some may have been interpreting "tan tiens" as "chakras" and/or "chakras" as "tan tiens."       

What's even more interesting about Brennan's insights, though, is that she describes the Haric level also as the level of intentionality.  So, as I see it, there is a further connection between her spiritual anatomy view, and the esoteric doctrine.  In the esoteric analogy of the "Coach," used in both Ouspensky's "Fragments," and Mouravieff's "Gnosis" they highlight the different levels of humans by calling the body the carriage, the "emotional" body the horse, the "mental" body the driver and Absolute Consciousness as the Master of the Coach.  There could be a parallel here with Brennan: the body as the carriage, the aura (with the traditional seven primary chakras) as the horse, the Haric level or level of intentionality as the driver, and the Core Star as the Master.   

I may be jumping the gun since I haven't finished "Gnosis," but I wanted to share this speculation before I forgot all about it. smile

You can't change a tiger's stripes,
but you can avoid its teeth.
  • montalk
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Re: Correlation between the Asian Three Tan Tiens and the Gnostic Centres

Thanks for posting this, "comparative esoterica" is an interesting subject. My impression upon reading about the Tan Tiens is that since they correlate with three stages of spiritual alchemy, they have more to do with processes than a one-to-one correspondence with the chakras.

What I mean is, the first Tan Tien may be what Mouravieff (and Gurdjieff/Ouspensky) call the 'magnetic center' - this would be the seed crystal of higher awareness and greater conscious focus, the wi-fi card that gives you better access to your true self, the Higher Self. It's the strengthening of your spiritual center of balance, and no surprise it's said to be located around your physical center of balance. As above so below.

When this magnetic center merges the lower emotional with the higher emotional center, this new configuration may correspond to the second Tan Tien. It would signal the opening of the Heart, and the unleashing of spiritual energy that, in the Gnosis books, causes the blood to "burn". With this, you would feel as your Higher Self feels and burn with divine love.

And from there, further development would open access to the higher intellectual center. That would mean awakening to divine reasoning and awareness, basically manifesting within yourself the Christ Consciousness. Your mind would become one with the mind of your Higher Self and at that point human evolution has gone as far as it can (after that, I guess you become fourth density?). This seems similar to the Chinese concept of "emptiness".

On a sidenote, I am willing to bet that most of us here will reach this third stage in the next twenty years. It is said that if you've undergone esoteric training in past lives, it can be regained more quickly in this life. With all this talk about 'activation' and "The Wave" and so on, I'm guessing that we will experience (and already are experiencing) a sped-up version of what's outlined in these Western/Eastern alchemical traditions.

Another place I read about a similar idea to the Tan Tiens is Robert Bruce's book "Astral Dynamics". Actually, this is probably in his New Energy Ways document about etheric body conditioning. Anyway, he talks about us having three energy reservoirs, one below the navel, one near the chest, and one  where our third eye is. These can be filled in sequence, when the bottom one fills the next one fills. This is done through visualization and breathing. What's the difference between meditational visualization and alchemical growth through experience? Perhaps the first stimulates while the second develops.

Well have fun with the rest of Gnosis, that's a really nice, concise, compact, yet clear and well organized book on hardcore spiritual development. The other two volumes are not OCRed so they're a bit bigger in size...if anyone here on dialup would like a burned CD of anything there, send me an email.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

montalk's Website

  • Registered: 2005-03-07

Re: Correlation between the Asian Three Tan Tiens and the Gnostic Centres

Thank you for your thoughts, montalk.  I am really enjoying "Gnosis."  And I have read Bruce's "Astral Dynamics."  In fact, I had thoughts of it while writing my last post. 

When I read "AD" I wondered if the three storage centers related to the three tan tiens.  ...But I'm excited to read the information about the magnetic center you mentioned...

Another correlation, though.  You talked about the magnetic center merging with the lower emotional and higher emotional center possibly resulting in a new configuration which might include the second tan tien.  I had a book on Reiki not long ago (I forget the title) and in it the author mentioned the recent (and coming) flowering of a transpersonal heart.  She called it a chakra that she "saw" right above the regular heart chakra. 

...Maybe what she was seeing was an alchemical awakening of the heart? (The second tan tien beginning to burn?)  ...Who knows.

In a more practical vein, I have found great help in meditation by intending to view myself from a "deeper" place than the aura.  I think of it, and feel it, like "stepping back" and observing (sensing/feeling/seeing/knowing) the contents of my aura.  I think of it as a neutral zone, a "choice-making" place, the place of intention.  I do it by gathering my attention into the center of my head.  I became aware of this "place" in meditation classes.  In meditation classes we would work the energy of our chakras/auras, and at some point I reasoned that if one CAN work the energy of the chakras/auras there must be a perch from which one can do it (my reasoning going that it's difficult if not impossible to solve a problem on the same level as the problem). 

But this place may simply be the special field of the center of the head/Third Eye.  I had a teacher who said the Third Eye is the first chakra in which neutrality/non-judgment is possible.

You can't change a tiger's stripes,
but you can avoid its teeth.
  • From: US.VA
  • Registered: 2004-03-27

Re: Correlation between the Asian Three Tan Tiens and the Gnostic Centres

montalk wrote:

When this magnetic center merges the lower emotional with the higher emotional center, this new configuration may correspond to the second Tan Tien. It would signal the opening of the Heart, and the unleashing of spiritual energy that, in the Gnosis books, causes the blood to "burn". With this, you would feel as your Higher Self feels and burn with divine love.

Dreamosis is on book 1, and you go ahead and spool 2 and 3 for him.  Just great.

Hope ya'll are listening to this.  (And to think these 3 volumes are available digitally.  Shit, i better not mention it or someone will take notice...)

MU'06

5 Reply by montalk (edited by montalk 2005-04-23 22:16:11)

  • montalk
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Re: Correlation between the Asian Three Tan Tiens and the Gnostic Centres

dreamosis wrote:

think of it as a neutral zone, a "choice-making" place, the place of intention.  I do it by gathering my attention into the center of my head.  I became aware of this "place" in meditation classes.

Ah, I think there you're getting into the concept of the philosopher's stone, millstone, keystone, pivot of the pendulum, fulcrum, eye of the vortex -- that still inner center where the throne of the "Real I" is located and the place from which freewill originates.

When inspirational books tell you to find your center, to stay centered, this is what they're talking about...stepping back from the world and remembering your observer-Self.

In the beginning your amount of centering may be shallow, more a place of emotional neutrality and objectivity with a slight sense of "gee, I'm aware that I'm aware". Like becoming lucid in a dream.

But the more time you spend there, the more perceptive you become to the subtle communications from your Real Self. Good metaphor would be a house of many concentric rooms -- the outer rooms host a loud party, the innermost chamber houses the Real I. By centering yourself, you are right outside the inner chamber and may find it quiet enough to hear what the Real I is feeling, thinking, saying. That's basically what any esoteric tradition, Western or Eastern, advises. Common sense, really.

But yeah, great that you have discovered this. I'm sure most people reading this thread have done this before, perhaps without knowing what exactly they were doing other than perching themselves on the observer's platform. Now if only you can maintain this for increasingly longer periods of time. If only you could maintain this centeredness when outer circumstances poke and prod you into losing yourself in their dramas. That's something to strive for. Our real feelings, real thoughts, real inspirations, and real identity is burried beneath layers of false assumptions, programmed beliefs, fears, and illusions...but by setting aside for the moment the ego's mad rush for preoccupation and acquisition, you can put yourself into observer mode and ask yourself what you REALLY feel like doing, what you REALLY know to be true, and what you REALLY believe in... that's a good meditation to practice, by the way.

Yeah, the more you act from this inner center, the more you strengthen it. It's basically a solid platform from which to launch non-deterministic behavior, a foothold from which to push away mechanicalness. When negative emotions push you hard into acting mechanically, but you hold on to your inner center and simply by observing see the bigger picture and how ludicrous the situation is, that is a victory for your inner center and all that energy that would otherwise go to waste (well, be eaten by other entities) instead goes toward energizing that center and builds it up.

That's the magnetic center -- grow it enough and you activate the second Tan Tien, your heart chakra blossoming...at that point you become a spiritual knight. "To burn and to serve" is their motto. Serve well, and in time you become King/Queen ruling over the material world under divine law.

But, first thing's first. Finding your observer-self and returning to it as often as possible is a great way to preheat the oven. Not easy, but practice worth persisting through repeated failures to stay centered. I'm not there yet either, but am working on it. After that I think your heart takes over and you're not so much observing yourself as being your true Self observing the world through the eyes of an initiate. Slight difference, the first unplugs you from the matrix, the second opens your eyes.

Lastly, I gotta add that it's not a steady progression up the ladder. Rather, you do get intermittent glimpses of what you will eventually achieve as a permanent state of being. For example, in writing this post I feel intermittent fire from the heart area, but I bet an hour from now I'll be back to my usual self. But the more often I do this, the longer the fire stays lit until one day it'll burn bright and strong. This is not something I've read in the Gnosis or Fourth Way books, but I know it's a real phenomenon, and thankfully so because with these glimpses we get a taste for what's next and that motivates us.

(As Cameron said, 2 and 3 are available. Lurkers, time to sign up!)

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

montalk's Website

  • From: Saint Louis
  • Registered: 2004-08-21

Re: Correlation between the Asian Three Tan Tiens and the Gnostic Centres

-very interesting thread.

I am very interested in the idea of "comparitve esoterica" as Montalk put it as it seems so many cultures, traditions, systems have so many ways of expressing what is essentially the same thing. Perhaps this goes back to the Tower of Babel as a means of confusion and control, whatever. We are at a point in history where so much knowledge is easily available in written form at least, it seems important to me to begin to boil down the terms, symbols, etc., of various traditions to common denominators where all involved are on the same page, speaking the same langauge.

This, of course is a huge deal as each tradition, faith, culture, blah blah, has it's own nuances and slant on things which makes it beautiful and viable on its own as thousands of years of human energy has contributed and distilled it with great care and respect should be given to each one.

It seems like there are a lot of traditions at this time that are voluntarily giving up info that has long been regarded as secret ancient stuff and saying here it is...if you can figure it out... go for it! Hell, even the Illuminati have "The Revelation of the Method" putting the shit in your face and forcing you to smell it.

Maybe it is part of our job to further distill all this stuff and ground it further into reality.

Anyway, I did not mean to hijack this thread into a tangent, I'm looking forward to learning more of the 3 Tan Tiens (which I'm not familliar with), and the Gurdjieff stuff (on my list already), and see how it meshes with what I've already taken in.

Thanks, SM