• Registered: 2004-10-15

Topic: Elections - "You got no right to complain if you don't vote".

Uk election in a few days.  I will not be voting for the obvious reasons (it being illusions and programming).

Got two issues I would like to raise though.

1)  The people that are trapped inside the illusion and believe that they have "power of the vote" still.  They tend to say things like "If you don't vote you have no right to comment".  About 1 year to 18months ago, I grew out of the need to dicuss these issues with people...and now tend to let them get on with it.

.   i) But is there such a thing as a good counter arguement / statement to such points?
.   ii)  Further - what reasons (if any) do you give for not voting (if you don't vote)?


2)  The people that see through the illusions, that know the government are out for themselves and manipulate the people.  Further that the governments themselves are manipulated, and merely serve the corporations and other higher powers.  Basically there are people out there that understand all this - yet they still vote.  (My dad is one - hence the reason for the thread).  Although he knows elections are illusions - and he sees through the control factors, he still believes it is very important to vote.  (This is part of a inner conflict I see in a lot of people over 50 that have "awakened".

.   i)  What can you say to such people?
.   ii)  How do you explain your own position?


I am very conscious here that this thread comes across as me feeling the need to explain myself.  That really isn't the case - I have grown used to keeping quite in such discussions nowadays.  I just sit at the back of the room and don't say anything.  Often I am seen as the guy without an opinion (though conversly when I do speak up it tends to come out harsher than I mean it - I suspect people think me arrogant in such circumstances, but there ya go).  On the odd occasions I am confronted with these issues, my mind goes blank and I loose all communication abilities heh.

Anyway - just really after peoples thoughts on this.

Thought Manifestation

Marcus's Website

2 Reply by Alushe (edited by Alushe 2005-04-20 14:34:30)

  • Alushe
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Re: Elections - "You got no right to complain if you don't vote".

I skipped my first election when I had just hit voting age, another one coming up this year. My usual excuse is "I'm not voting until there's someone worth voting for," or the old favourite, "I'm exercising my right not to vote."

3 Reply by lyra (edited by lyra 2005-04-20 15:06:41)

  • lyra
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  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: Elections - "You got no right to complain if you don't vote".

Marcus wrote:

.   i) But is there such a thing as a good counter arguement / statement to such points?
.   ii)  Further - what reasons (if any) do you give for not voting (if you don't vote)?

Well, I just say it like it is if and when I'm asked and put into that type of conversation....I just say that my vote doesn't really matter.  That things are already pre-decided. That there are forces in control who dictate how things are going to go, and us voting is an illusion.  Usually I'll use the 2000 Bush "election" as a useful example.     Surprisingly, I've had some positive reception to this.   Mentioned this at my last temp job, and one of the guys in the group I was talking to totally understood and agreed with me about rigged elections.   It propelled him into a rant about how he believes that even smaller city elections are rigged.  I just smiled as he ranted about it.  It was nice to see someone waking up, if only for a couple of minutes, before sinking back into the slumber of every day life.   smile

So if I'm asked, I'll be honest, no holds barred.   They can choose to agree or disagree.   If they get defensive and fiesty I just smile and shrug.   It's not my problem if they don't agree.   Seriously...oh well.   If they get fiesty you can always say, "Well.................don't ask if you don't want an honest response then."  wink

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy shit ... what a ride!"  - Anonymous
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"I get by with a little help from my (higher density) friends."
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lyra's Website

4 Reply by seeker (edited by seeker 2005-04-20 20:14:44)

  • Registered: 2004-03-28

Re: Elections - "You got no right to complain if you don't vote".

Marcus-- I think that saying is true, but only if you aren't doing anything to change things. For instance, if you don't vote, what are you doing to help change things for the better? (rhetorical question btw)

I voted in November for the 2004 US elections. I stand by my decision to vote. If voting day was tomorrow I would do it again. I voted for the libertarian presidential candidate Michael Badnarik because he represented a reasonable compromise between my leaning (anarchist) and the general population's desire for organized control. I believe some candidates aren't corrupt, and that they genuinely believe the system can be changed if they're elected. In other words, they are honest people, not taking cash bribes from lobbyists, and hoping to change the current system for the better, no matter how fruitless their attempts may be. Do you think I expected him to win? Of course not. Do you think he expected to win? Of course not. But I voted for the guy for the same reason he's running. We both believe the system of government can be salvaged, if only popular opinion were to sway toward openmindedness and reason.

Here's why I voted: I don't believe the votes are fixed, at least at the level of tallying votes or the voting machines themselves (yet). The elections ARE "fixed" for certain though at the level of the media's control of popular opinion (ie. "these 2 or 3 candidates are your only choices for president/PM, and anyone else is a wasted vote"). It's also fixed such that candidates are "required" to be puppets for the powers behind the scenes, or else they will not be allowed to win. However! Suppose at the level of media influence, things were to change. Suddenly there is an uncorrupted candidate with a chance to win. Would you support him/her? The social climate surrounding politics, which is formed by the corporate media, has to change FIRST, before any such candidate has a chance. So in essence, I believe the problem stems from the manipulation of mass opinion, rather than the "system" itself.

I, personally, would be all right with an openminded candidate, who is out to preserve life rather than his own $$interests$$, being elected within the current system. Sure, the current system is not geared toward an STO society, but a candidate who is close to STO, in an STS system, is a start. We have to work with what we have, at the moment. It's not like, in 7 years, the government is suddenly going to collapse and we'll all be singing and dancing in the fields smelling flowers. If this planet is really headed for an STO reality, I'm certain the changes will be more gradual than anyone of us would imagine, if the last decade is any indication. We have to play with the cards we're dealt first, before we can deal a new hand or play a new game altogether. Think of the current political system like a house deteriorated by termites: You can fix it up again the way you want it without tearing down the whole thing, BUT you do need to get rid of the termites first.

So, if you're not voting (not YOU but in general), you should at least try to set an example for others as an informed, intelligent opinion on the current state of things, since that's what matters most. Call 'em as you see 'em. Cry foul when you see the lies and corruption in the news. I know most of us here already do that, but some are less likely to make their opinions vocal in public. "Be the change you wish to see in the world."

  • Registered: 2004-10-15

Re: Elections - "You got no right to complain if you don't vote".

Thanks for the comments all - and some really interesting points raised by you seeker.

For what it's worth, I totally agree with where you are coming from seeker - in so far as I understand what you are saying, and believe that if certain circumstances are met - than it is a worthwhile pursuit.  However, I still don't really feel as though I can accept it as a personal viewpoint.

The fault I perceive with elections - and indeed pretty much all else - is that things are always compartmentalised.  For example, the elections are discussed as a separate issue from the education (indoctrination?) of the voters.  The voters are often discussed as a separate issue to our belief system.  Our belief system is discussed separately to government.  And so on...

This surely makes it easier for us to comprehend key issues, but there is a definite problem with this approach.  When things are dismantled in this manner we loose sight of the overarching pattern.  When I take a long look at things from this way of thinking – I cannot in all good faith separate the “system”  from the mass manipulation.  The two are intrinsically linked, and should not just be separated purely for the means of discourse.

I don’t watch TV so I don’t know what the coverage has been like for the upcoming elections here.  But if it is like normal, the elections will be shown as a two horse race.  The third party barely getting a mention.  At the moment about 70 – 80% of all billboards are occupied by election advertisements.  The ratio of advertisement isn’t split equally.  The third party with just about 10% of the ads.  This is a higher percentage than I remember in previous elections.

Anyway – as you point out, it is unlikely these small runners will win.  They compete because they believe in Government, and because they hope for change.  They have to work within the existing system.  When I see this sort of situation – especially as it was in America – I can’t but help wonder at the energy, time and money these small runners put in.  They positively glow with hope, and motivation.  It’s good they have such a strong belief in something.  However, I really do have to consider what else these people could achieve if they put such energy and money into something more productive!

If they cannot win – then become a voice of utter opposition, or of total dissent.  If they cannot win, why tow the line at all?

We cannot point at any one part of our civilisation and place the blame of our current state squarely at its feet.  And neither can we point at any single place to praise our success.  As said – true progress has come through tough opposition and shear will power and never giving up.

Humanities greatest successes could arguably be during those times when we have left behind old beliefs.  Those moments when as a whole we have stopped carrying a dead unworkable carcass to which we attribute the underpinnings of our society.  These occasions have only occurred during moments when popular opinion has undergone a drastic shift.  During times of chaos, or after a momentous event.  For a short while after 9/11 people began to wake up – they looked around for a few days, questioning the very foundations of our society.  Shortly they went back to sleep again.  Point is though it nearly happened.

Other than the above, education and bringing awareness to the people has often proved very successful at causing change.  But often this has only occurred through people with loud voices that would never let their message drop.

I look around – and what do we have now?  No voices, no moments of change.  Just polarized opinions upon compartmentalised black and white issues.  And breaking through this overt blanket is a rag tag band of people working, talking, writing attempting to bring awareness.  Attempting to educate.

True education as far as I see it is the only way to bring change.  Not working within an oppressive system – towing the line 70% whilst spending the other 30% trying to get something new in.

And it makes me wonder at our situation when the forefront of this modern “education”  is occurring on the backwaters of the internet.

That’s not to say I see the situation as hopeless.

But I truly believe that change – whether it be gradual or otherwise will only occur through education.  From a personal perspective I just can’t see how working within a self-contained, compartmentalised system is going to truly achieve anything…especially when the nature of that system is to stop “unauthorised”  change.

It’s like I have seen someone mention here at NR (Lyra I believe?); we need to start living according to our new awakenings and knowledge…not merely talking it or intellectualising it (a bad habit of mine I must admit)…

Thought Manifestation

Marcus's Website

  • Registered: 2004-04-21

Re: Elections - "You got no right to complain if you don't vote".

I simply explained to people that voting would compromise my personal integrity because participating helps strengthen a destructive sham.  Marcus, you're correct.  True knowledge brings responsibility.  We can't act the same as mindless sheep, because we no longer are such.