Topic: Does the e-go have to go?

Is anybody tiring of the concept of the ego?

It is thrown about in New Age/progressive circles so often, and yet, it is rarely defined.

What are everybody's definition of "the ego?"

I feel my current understanding is inadequate, and it confuses me more and more the more I contemplate it.

I recently began reading, and then stopped reading a book called "A Course in Miracles."  I applaud anyone who found insight in it, but I didn't pass the first forty pages.  I understand that spiritual truth is not always easy, or easy to understand--but I personally hold up a standard of "Does this excite?" when I evaluate spiritual information.  It didn't excite me at all.  In fact, I was bored stiff.  ...I recognize I may be blocked, but I don't *feel* blocked...

Most recently I am taking issue with the argument that the ego arises out of the fear that arises from feeling separate.  Buddhism, as I understand it, more or less advances this idea--that ego/self arises from separateness, and that, since the separateness is an illusion that ego/self in an illusion.

(Anyone unfamiliar with Buddhism can check out www.sacred-texts.com).

...I feel I feel the benefits of a consciousness of connectedness.  I have experienced compassion in my life through this awareness.

However, I don't feel total fear at the idea of separateness or individuality.  I like my separateness/individuality.  I also like my connectedness. 

Several systems seem to advocate the complete annihilation of self.  And that may be "the way," I don't know. 

What I am taking issue with is the belief that self/individuality/physicality is a mistake to be corrected, a kind of giant f***-up. 

Thoughts?

You can't change a tiger's stripes,
but you can avoid its teeth.

Re: Does the e-go have to go?

I forgot to include my personal definition of the ego.

My definition of ego is: an agglomeration of mental image pictures (programs) in the mind-field that shape the nature of one's interaction with other beings and energy in the universe.

So I suppose I conceive as the ego as a mask, or valence, that sits between our conscious core and all other consciousness. 

Carol S. Pearson, author of "The Heroes Within: Twelve Archetypes..." has a definition I like too.  She calls the ego a "container" for the soul.  I like this definition because it doesn't automatically invalidate it.

Writing this second post, I realize that there's more programming around WHAT TO DO with the ego rather than what it is per se...

You can't change a tiger's stripes,
but you can avoid its teeth.

3 (edited by Haven 2005-03-19 22:19:25)

Re: Does the e-go have to go?

My definition of ego is an identity built on one's perception.  That means we all have an ego that we will never be seperate from.  Even if we choose to only take information from our intuition or other less tangible avenues, it is still your ego that thrives.

I think the common usage deals with our actions.  When I talk about the ego, it is because it is generally understood to mean a limit of some kind.  I use it in reference to the belief that the information one has accumulated must be true, in all areas, or it undermines one's own sense of self, due to an emotional involvement of greatly desiring a feeling of being successful, or that one does indeed exist and, more importantly, has a right to exist.  One generally only encourages beliefs in one's mind that tend to support their emotional desires, whether they be harmful, where one makes excuses as to why one isn't the best, or why one is disadvantaged, or, more likely, because they either give the advantage to one's ego or take away the advantage from other egos. 

This search for supporting information doesn't mean one must stop listening to truth, only that they selectively allow certain information that agrees with their point of view.  This also includes the action of changing one's point of view to a more profitable one, since, in the end, the thing that most egos desire is an advantage over other egos.

But, yes, it does seem to stem from a seperation, since to bolster one's own ego above a common good encourages competition, based on a faulty reasoning of worth.  Whereas we can still base one's worth or right to exist on the amount of resources one has access to, we are in an era of evolution in which we have begun to stake out and determine resources in the psychological and spiritual realms, where ego and self have become less limited, since we are no longer conformed to a life of merely providing what we need to our bodies and simple psychology.  Now we must determine what worth is based on a whole new reality of faith and other intagibles in which we are still exploring.  In this case, we have generations of evolutionary psychology to overcome.  No small task.

Summarily, I would say that ego is the tendency to react irrationally despite whatever truth one is presented with, and unwilling to allow conflicting information to be processed.

* When we start identifying wisdom with our ability to comprehend its form, what wisdom is that?
* Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
* People want platitudes, not progress.

Re: Does the e-go have to go?

Haven wrote:

My definition of ego is an identity built on one's perception. 

...I would say that ego is the tendency to react irrationally despite whatever truth one is presented with, and unwilling to allow conflicting information to be processed.

Do you think it might be possible to have a "transparent" ego?  That is, a sense of identity--or, certain lenses of perception (like I was getting at with my idea of mental image pictures)--that allows conflicting information to be processed?  Or is allowing conflicting information to be processed a process that happen side by side with a reshaping of the ego? 

When reading your post I thought of Joseph Campbell the mythologist.  He talked about the need for keeping one's symbols (belief systems) translucent.  I think he meant not emphasizing form, but not denying form.

That's what I'm striking at with having a transparent ego...Not emphasizing self, but not denying self...

You reminded me too, Haven, that there is practical application for the common understanding for the word ego.  I like the common understanding of it in that, using the common understanding, it gives you a gestalt term for talking about your limits. 

But...are all limits bad?  The word "limit," like ego, seems to carry an automatic negative connotation.  But what about limits one sets to maintain integrity, for instance?   

I hope I'm not just turning this into a word game...My intention is to deepen my knowledge.

Last thought, though: what is the relation of the ego to the rational/analytical mind?  Where is the ego seated?

You can't change a tiger's stripes,
but you can avoid its teeth.

Re: Does the e-go have to go?

I don't know that I would know what my definition of ego would be. But does it have to go...no I don't think so.

The ego is a part of what makes me, me and you ...well, you. So it does have it's place. I think the issue lies in the degree to which it has control over you. It is not rational, that belongs to a different part of the brain/mind.  When the ego is allowed to control things, this is when people can be held back because of the fear of success, it can also shuttle people ahead but usually under STS conditions, greed, pride, jealousy, anger come to mind.

I guess I think the ego is part emotional and part spiritual, in that at it's healthiest and controlled it can say "I am that I am." It doesn't want more or less for it's self, but seeks to be able to give more to others.

Just some thoughts.

Peace,
Teddy

"It means the Matrix can't tell you who you are" - Trinity

Re: Does the e-go have to go?

T-Ren summed up my thoughts on the ego, which was a bit synchronous because I just started reading Ceanne DeRohan's book "The Right Use of Will" which makes a pretty simple and clear definition of ego:  that which allows you to distinguish between yourself and everything else. Without the ego, there would be no distinction...sorta like an ice cube that melts into an ocean and loses its form. David R Hawkins, author of Power vs Force, relayed a story of when his ego went MIA...he couldn't speak or socially function for a very long time.

Should the ego be dissolved? Or put in its rightful place? As far as I can tell, ego is necessary for self-awareness, to distinguish between self and other, which is a prerequisite for continued evolutionary progression along the STS/STO/(STA) modes. In other words, this means that entities spend the first couple stages of existence (1st, 2nd, some of 3rd density) growing the ego so that once self awareness is fully formed, it can then choose whether to primarily serve or manipulate others.

To be an ego-maniac would mean worshipping the idea of one's separation from others, to the point of revelling in imagined superiority and domination over others. But an ego in its rightful place would mean an individual retaining his/her individuality (and thus being able to make individual choices, learn individual lessons, etc...) but becoming ever increasingly grooved into the divine scheme of things.

I'm not in favor of dissolving the ego...making it an instrument of higher conscience, definitely.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

Re: Does the e-go have to go?

Hi dreamosis,

dreamosis wrote:

  Is anybody tiring of the concept of the ego?

smile   Sorta, kinda, but I realize the concept has validity, so, I haven't tossed it out just yet.  big_smile 


dreamosis wrote:

  I recently began reading, and then stopped reading a book called "A Course in Miracles."  I applaud anyone who found insight in it, but I didn't pass the first forty pages.  I understand that spiritual truth is not always easy, or easy to understand--but I personally hold up a standard of "Does this excite?" when I evaluate spiritual information.  It didn't excite me at all.  In fact, I was bored stiff.  ...I recognize I may be blocked, but I don't *feel* blocked...

I hear you on this one......I haven't looked at this particular book, but I can relate to the fact that so much of the material that's mentioned and recommended  in the metaphysical circles is all stuff that, to me, is boring, dry, dull, pretentious, wordy, or hard to follow.  Or just too boring too follow.  wink   I don't believe spiritual truths need to be presented in such complicated, convoluted, dry boring wordy ways.   Too many sources over complicate stuff.   Spiritual truths should ideally be simple and straight forward.   Intellectuals LOVE to muddle it all up to sound like they're all smart and important n' suff.   wink 


dreamosis wrote:

  What are everybody's definition of "the ego?"

Like others, I believe it arises out of the misperception of separateness.   From there, many MANY people fall into the trap of self importance and specialness.     Everybody does it at some point, maybe several points wink, including all of us here at NR.    But that's it, really.  It's very simple, and in fact, the next time you witness or are involved in any sort of conflict or argument, where tempers are flaring and people be gettin' mad, take a closer look at what's really going on:    It all traces back to the belief in self importance.   People fighting do so out of frustration, anger, resentment, bitterness, etc. but when you really trace it back, at the core is the belief that they are important, their feelings are important, their "issues" and "stuff" is so important and really matters.   In the big scheme of things, none of it truly matters....but people lack that bigger perspective, get all wrapped up in the separitist, self important illusion. 

Stuart Wilde was the first one I read who so bluntly put it all in terms of "self importance".   After reading that I looked around, analyzed conflicts around me and saw that it's true, at the base of discord and people treating each other like crap is the misperception of separateness and self importance.

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy shit ... what a ride!"  - Anonymous
-----
"I get by with a little help from my (higher density) friends."
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Re: Does the e-go have to go?

I believe the definition of ego should expand to include awareness and ignorance.  To attach one to one's self-importance, or defining one's self on a fallacy, or having a general disregard for the pursuit of truth, should be deemed ego in pursuit of willful ignorance.  To be passionate about the truth, however, in an honest attempt to clarify, not insist, would be an ego in pursuit of enlightenment.  Read some posts about something and see how biased some things are presented.  Not views about beliefs, things that can't be proven, but views about things that can be very easily verified, views on personal perception of factual events, and see how much ego colors one's perceptions.  The more one insists on believing something despite the plausibility of an alternative viewpoint, the more one insists on having a monopoly on truth despite their lack of knowledge on the subject or instance, the more ego is in control.  The more one is open to different interpretation, interpretation that is more centered and more easily demonstrable, the more one is control of their ego.

Ego as a definition definately includes their relationship to their self.

* When we start identifying wisdom with our ability to comprehend its form, what wisdom is that?
* Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
* People want platitudes, not progress.

9 (edited by heandras 2005-03-20 10:16:44)

Re: Does the e-go have to go?

I think the ego is some kind of separated consciousness/energy of the universe… one of many foci of consciousness of the Creator. I believe, the Ego is all that I am aware of inside of me and the constructed reality of “the world outside" . It’s ultimately identification – a stable filter between the observer and the observed that defines how the inner and outer world is perceived and interpreted. The question is, how on handles that separateness. Am I trying to harden the structures inside or do I (ego) keep myself “transparent"  as dreamosis mentioned. The first behaviour perhaps leads to stagnation, latter to spiritual growth, to an expansion of being.
I think, the ego that is not aligned/connected with higher portions of the soul is weak and therefore builds structures of illusionary nature. This ego feels the weakness of these structures, that lack soul-support and reacts aggressive against anything or anyone that questions it, because on a deeper level it has doubts itself, but don’t want to give up the stable world-view.
The ego that is aligned to higher portions of the soul and thereby the creative force/the flow of life, is highly transparent and doesn’t resist change. So, it’s still an ego, but doesn’t show the typical negative behaviour that is associated with ego.
I don’t think it’s possible to dissolve the ego. Maybe absolute transparency/flexibility of ego and therefore maximum expansion of consciousness feels like that, but it isn’t. But that’s highly speculative. Maybe when reaching 7th density the ego will be dissolved and “recycled"  …who knows.
What do you think about the ego being “the observer" , the deepest “I"  that perceives anything –whether internal or external? I just have doubts whether that or the filters/structures I mentioned above could be the ego…

A man is born gentle and weak. At his death he is hard and stiff.
Green plants are tender and filled with sap. At their death they are withered and dry.
Therefore the stiff and unbending is the disciple of death. The gentle and yielding is the disciple of life.

Re: Does the e-go have to go?

One thing is for sure, the ego cannot be used to eradicate itself. It needs a sense of identity, which it obtains by playing a victim to external circumstances, or looking for approval, security, or control to ward off it's fears of annihilation. It takes many to their graves rather than admit defeat. To get to the root of the ego, according to Maharshi, is to seek it's source. "To whom does this thought appear?". It seems the ego is concerned with survival and self-gratification. It wants more of everything. Probably related to distorted survival drive and addiction to the earthly pleasures. Thrives on judgement and expectation, which lead to negativity and fear. The 12 steps of AA seem to address the problem of the ego, which is probably at least partly responsible for addictive behaviors, by surrendering the will to a higher power and taking a personal inventory to see where "instincts run wild"  have been the basis for a twisted personality.

Re: Does the e-go have to go?

About the "Observer" Self...

I often think of myself in threes.  I realize that when you enter a multidimensional understanding of being human, numbers become somewhat insufficient--but this works for me right now. 

I break down the part of myself by relating to the perception of dreams.  In dreams, for me, there is (nearly) always a three-part perception.  There is (1) The-Me-Acting-Out-The-Dream, (2) The-Me-OBSERVING-The-Dream, and (3) The-Me-Lying-In-Bed-Having-The-Dream.     

In dreams, I seem to shift between these three selves.  Have you ever been having a dream wherein you suddenly become aware that you're lying in bed about to wake up?  At the moment that happens--the moment a little lucidity breaks in--I realize The-Me-Acting-Out-The-Dream isn't all of me, that there is another me in another ("real") world. 

Or have you ever shifted from being in the action of a dream to watching the action like it was a movie or a play?  Or the reverse?

...But getting back to the concept of ego.  I relate the ego to The-Me-Acting-Out-The-Dream, and by meditating--going within--I identify with The-Me-OBSERVING-The-Dream.  And it's possible to fuse these two consciousnesses, I think.  Or, at least, it's possible to educate the ego/The-You-Acting-Out-The-Dream to recognize the dream-ness of things. 

In meditating I also find value in putting my "Observer" consciousness into The-Me-Lying-In-Bed-Having-The-Dream, i.e. the body.  I find that when I purposely pull my attention point into my flesh that I experience delightful quiet--a different kind of quiet from sending me attention to the vibration of the core/observer.  When I intentionally put my attention in my body, I find extreme clarity and presence.  I feel the body's present-time-ness is one of its greatest strengths.  The mind/aura is often stretching into the past or future--or at least it is still charged with energies that entered you weeks or years ago--but the body is in the present.  It can be charged with memories, too--but, I don't know, I just find it quieter.

You can't change a tiger's stripes,
but you can avoid its teeth.

Re: Does the e-go have to go?

Okay, this is a long one, but it's what's been on my mind since this post began...   


        Merriman Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary, Ninth Edition, defines the ego as: “1: the self esp. as contrasted with another self or the world  2 a: EGOTISM  2 b: SELF-ESTEEM  3: the one of the three divisions of the psyche in psychoanalytic theory that serves as the organized conscious mediator between the person and reality esp. by functioning both in the perception and adaptation to reality – compare ID, SUPEREGO – egoless, adj.

    The term ego, I feel, has become a vague term.  So many philosophers, psychological theorists, spiritual teachers and New Age writers have stipulated new meanings for it that it is confusing to use in a context such as this forum.  It appears to always need qualification–except when its use seems to draw upon the common accepted meaning.  That is interesting.  Ego is a more or less stable term in the common sense.  It is when it becomes connected a particular theory, or metaphysical viewpoint, that its meaning diffuses.  Of course, one could identify “the common sense”  as a metaphysical viewpoint itself, and–I think–it is, if you examine the common meaning. 

    You might have noticed that the adjective that the dictionary definition supplied above is “egoless.”   I feel this example supports the second (and common sense) definition of ego as implying “egotism.”   That is the common sense of the term ego: a pejorative label for a person who has “an exaggerated sense of self-importance: CONCEIT”  (that is Webster’s definition of egotism).

    One rarely hears the term ego connected to Webster’s “2 b:”  definition, “self-esteem.”   How often is ego promoted as benign?  But in considering origins, I think the word ego has gotten an undeservedly bad wrap.  It is a word received directly out of Latin, simply meaning “I.”   That is the original meaning of the word, its original essence and energy–the two phonemes referred to self (“esp. as contrasted with another self or the world” ). 

    I find it fascinating that so many systems (Jungian, I believe, being one of them) contrast the term ego with Self, when “self”  was the original conceptual meaning of the word ego.  Metaphysically speaking, I often encounter theories that relegate the term ego to the lower, bodily mind, and reserve the term Self to refer to an eternal principle–a core consciousness, the Higher Self.  That there is confusion is perfectly understandable when you enter a metaphysics that posits that we are, in fact, multidimensional–the simplest example model being “body/mind,”  and an increasingly complex model being one that divides the human being into “etheric body, emotional body, mental body, astral body, and so on and so forth.”

    By calling into question the concept of ego I do not hope to achieve fusion in conceptualizing the psyche.  Through experience I have indeed found the psyche to be a structure both multifaceted and form-shifting.  Rather, by calling into question the term ego, I merely wish to expose what I perceive as a collision of connotative and operational definitions within the term ego.  A connotative definition, as I’m using it here, I mean to refer to essential characteristics of a thing.  For instance, a connotative definition of “bird”  would be: an animal with feathers, a lightweight skeleton and a beak.  Feathers, lightweight skeleton and beak are all essential characteristics which connote “bird.”   An operational definition of the word “bird”  would be: an animal that can fly.  Operational implies how it operates, how it acts in the world, etc.

    So, as I was saying, I perceive a collision–an, I think, unfortunate confusion–connotative and operational meanings in the term ego as it is used in a metaphysical context.  And it’s the common sense meaning and usage, the meaning and usage which have had the least plasticity over the years, that–I think–promotes the confusion.  The common usage of the term ego is commonly pejorative and judgmental.  That, however, doesn’t mean that its usage isn’t “true”  or “accurate”  in a given case.  Again, I take the common sense meaning of ego to imply egotism (self-important, self-interested, conceited). 

    If you step back you might see (what I think I see) that the common definition of ego is really an operational one, i.e., it describes what a person is doing, not being.  The label is used because, presumably, a person is acting with an inward bias, unthinking of others and only for personal gain.  In trying to illuminate the different meanings of ego I am not defending that type of behavior, but I am instead trying to show that the term ego is often confused and thought of as synonymous with “service-to-self”  behavior rather than understood as a neutral mechanism.

    Of course, calling the ego a “’neutral’ mechanism”  is a metaphysical viewpoint in itself.  And, often, it is not a popular one.  By “neutral”  I mean that the ego may not be detrimental to a person in and of itself.  The ego seen as a “negative”  mechanism is, as I understand it, integral to several major belief systems.  In Hinduism and Buddhism both, the ego is a thing to be cut off or “extinguished.”   And, if one examines the sacred texts, it is clear that their definition of ego is connotative and not operational.  Or rather, the connotative (characteristics of the thing) and operational (action-oriented) aspects are seen as equal–through extinguishing “ego-actions”  one extinguishes the ego.  However, it is difficult to speak about connotative definitions of the ego in the context of Hinduism and Buddhism (and some New Age Christianity, like the kind inspired by “A Course in Miracles” ) because they identify the ego as an “illusion.”   Can an illusion really have parts and characteristics that aren’t also just illusions?  …But I digress.  That problem is really, I think, a semantical one.

    My point here is: that if you accept BOTH definitions of the ego (the common-sense one, ego as defined as service-to-self, and the definition that the psychoanalytics put forth–ego as a “conscious mediator between the person and reality” ), then the association of both definitions inside the mind sets the stage for self-judgment.  Attaching the operational qualifiers to the term ego, say the qualifier of a person acting in a primarily service-to-self manner, and at the same time, understanding the ego to be self-ness, might reinforce a belief in the human being as inherently bad.  I admit I cannot clearly explain to myself the exact way in which this happens, but I think it is reasonable to suggest that the interplay of the two definitions of the term ego (and they interplay a lot in metaphysical circles) could generate a negative charge around the word in any sense that it used.  Of course, the sender may not intend a negative charge, and the receiver may receive a negative charge because of his or her particular personal history with the term ego.  Nonetheless, in a group of persons, with many using the term ego in its two basic senses–some of them using the term consciously, and some perhaps using it out of unthinking programming–it’s likely that the belief in the human being as basically bad may be reinforced by virtue of the confusion or unthinking-ness around the term ego.

    Even in metaphysical circles that have supposedly convened in rejection of belief systems that advance the “human being as basically bad”  idea, I see this pattern of thinking that the human being is basically bad through the individual and group conceptualization of the term ego.  I view this interpretation of the ego as a rehashing of The Fall, Original Sin, etc.  However, that is not say that I do not define the ego as potentially limiting or as a filter between ourselves and pure creation, I do–but what I see as critical is that the ego, the person, is not saddled with judgment simply for being an ego or person.

    In conclusion, I call into question the term ego because, through general usage, it’s become insufficiently clear whether it is referring to a neutral psychological mechanism, actions with negative orientation, or a thing that is inherently negative.  I call it into question because I believe, through conscious or unconscious manipulation, that the term ego has been used to enforce a belief in an inherent negativity in humankind.   I don’t–at current–have or necessarily want to have a new, stipulative definition for the concept encompassed by ego–either the “neutral mechanism”  or the service-to-self behaviors commonly called “ego.”   I do, however, want to commit myself (and offer the challenge to any who are willing) to no longer use the term ego to further the misunderstanding of humans as naturally deserving of judgment.  Furthermore, I put forth the idea that we can step out of the “Original Sin”  judging mentality without having to imagine ourselves as dual or as multifaceted with one part of us that is unworthier than the rest. 

    Is it possible to understand ourselves without judgment?  Can we understand the concept implied by the term "ego" as something that is not a hindrance, but just another part of ourself?

You can't change a tiger's stripes,
but you can avoid its teeth.

Re: Does the e-go have to go?

hey! lego my ego!

"...i was taken by the hand, from the ocean to the sand..."
nitin sawhney - 'eastern eyes'

Re: Does the e-go have to go?

I'm not quite sure if that's a joke, or if you mean that through my post I'm trying to highlight a part of yourself that you don't want highlighted. smile

You can't change a tiger's stripes,
but you can avoid its teeth.

Re: Does the e-go have to go?

Zon is making a funny.

Peace,
Teddy

"It means the Matrix can't tell you who you are" - Trinity