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Topic: Tales, myths and religion

I believe that all "myths", whether Christian, Muslim, Norse, Celtic, Maori, Greek or otherwise, have at their fundamental core a set of allegorical, archetypal truths. It doesn't matter whether these actual events happened or not, whether Jesus was incarnate or metaphorical. I take from each one what I believe works, and apply it.

I find the older tales and legends, and the ones that come from cultures practically untainted by Judaic religion or controlling greed hold the most insight, Nordic cultures, the Celtics, Maori and pacific islands, and classical mythology in particular. They provide a fine tale that also holds knowledge and wisdom, a moral lesson, and the keys to unlocking parts of ourselves.

I have oft been criticised by people calling me crazy for believing in "stories" and "myths", but my rebuttal is commonly along the lines of this: You watch a movie like The Matrix, or Dark City, Abre los Ojos, Waking Life, etc etc and often these films are hinting at something, speaking to us in symbolism and metaphor. I find it is the same with these tales; that the bards, the skalds, the poets wove tales of intrigue, adventure and heroics to enthrall and humble, teach and entertain.

Re: Tales, myths and religion

Yeah I've always thought that but never thought much more about it. I thought Myths etc are events/truths they may have taken place in different times/dimensions and have passed through the ages as stories, maybe some of us are heading to those places again to live a legend, another story in the page of exsistence, to again be told in other times as myths/stories. Just some thoughts that have crossed my mind and its funny that you have mentioned this as well Alushe. smile

"Life's not meant to be a struggle" Stuart Wilde
We are one and the same on a different path to the same destination

Re: Tales, myths and religion

Great summary of what is in my mind for a long time too!

I believe myths & legends are giving us clues on what happened "a long time ago" (I really doubt if time is linear, but that's different story) and we can see the symbols and metaphors if we pay attention.

I began to study on different culture's myths because of that. And one can find many similarities and parallel lines once doing that.

Religion? That seems a bit more complicated. Religion seems to be two-sided. It may keep you controlled in the Matrix, or give you the clues of freedom. This is up to the individual it seems.

I once wrote about Babylon 5 on another thread. I finished watching Season 4 recently. For the ones who watched the series; I believe we're in "post-great burn" period of the season 4's last episode. That is after a great world war, where we find out all of our characters who we know and watch for all 4 seasons has become myths and legends, even religious figures for the survivors. That was really enlightining episode for me.

Change we must, to live again
- Jon Anderson

Re: Tales, myths and religion

I recommend reading Jung for more info on this sort of thing.

* When we start identifying wisdom with our ability to comprehend its form, what wisdom is that?
* Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
* People want platitudes, not progress.

5 (edited by morningsun76 2004-12-11 18:46:39)

Re: Tales, myths and religion

The Naked Truth is a great video on this subject for those that are interested.  It focuses more on the solar mythology and a few specific myths than metaphors for matters of Spirit, but is a good watch and a nice one to have in the library for interested friends who are just beginning to question.

http://lightworksav.com/ProductImages/lw/SV3410.jpg

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Re: Tales, myths and religion

This also fits in with fractal reality. We have these struggles within ourselves, which are reflected as a whole within family units, community, country, planet, galaxy, and finally universe. Then you look at weather patterns, animal interaction, the solar winds, the movement of stars planets and galaxies. The great eternal mind that is God exploring infinite possibilities, fractal and holographic in nature; as above, so below.
This is where I believe the shamans, soothsayers, seers, sages and oracles draw their insights from. They might see a certain bird fly overhead at a certain time, and believe that as that happens it is refracted within infinity and the whole at once, and they can divine certain things from it.

Re: Tales, myths and religion

When we try to describe higher dimensions and how activity there interacts with our reality, we run into a problem.  We don't have the words, so we use allegory, etc.  If this is the case for us now, it was the case in the past.  Therefore, the old stories should not be dismissed as mere fantasy.

8 (edited by Ayahuasca 2004-12-12 06:59:45)

Re: Tales, myths and religion

In his "The Book On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are" Alan Watts wrote about the importance of using myths as way to better understand our reality.


Alan Watts wrote:

...We do not need a new religion or a new bible. We need a new experience--a new feeling of what it is to be "I." The lowdown (which is, of course, the secret and profound view) on life is that our normal sensation of self is a hoax or, at best, a temporary role that we are playing, or have been conned into playing-- with our own tacit consent, just as every hypnotized person is basically willing to be hypnotized The most strongly enforced of all known taboos is the taboo against knowing who or what you really are behind the mask of your apparently separate, independent, and isolated ego. I am not thinking of Freud's barbarous Id or Unconscious as the actual reality behind the facade of personality. Freud, as we shall see, was under the influence of a nineteenth-century fashion called "reductionism," a curios need to put down human culture and intelligence by calling it a fluky by-product of blind and irrational forces. They worked very hard, then, to prove that grapes can grow on thornbushes.

  As is so often the way, what we have suppressed and overlooked is something startlingly obvious. The difficulty is that it is so obvious and basic that one canhardly find the words for it. The Germans call it a Hintergendanke, an apprehension lying tacitly in the back of our minds which we cannot easily admit, even to ourselves. The sensation of "I" as a lonely and isolated center of being is so powerful and commonsensical, and so fundamental to our modes of speech and thought, to our laws and social institutions, that we cannot experience selfhood except as something superficial in the scheme of the universe. I seem to be a brief light that flashes but once in all the aeons of time--a rare, complicated, and all-too-delicate organism on the fringe of biological evolution, where the wave of life bursts into individual, sparkling, and multicolored drops that gleam for a moment only to vanish forever. Under such conditioning it seems impossible and even absurd to realize that myself does not reside in the drop alone, but in the whole surge of energy which ranges from the galaxies to the nuclear fields in my body. At this level of existence "I" am immeasurably old; my forms are infinite and their comings and goings are simply the pulses or vibrations of a single and eternal flow of energy.

  The difficulty in realizing this to be so is that conceptual thinking cannot grasp it. It is as if the eyes were trying to look at themselves directly, or as if one were trying to describe the color of a mirror in terms of colors reflected in the mirror. Just as sight is something more than all things seen, the foundation or "ground" of our existence and our awareness cannot be understood in terms of things that are known. We are forced, therefore, to speak of it through myth-- that is, through special metaphors, analogies. and images which say what it is like as distinct from what it is. At one extreme of its meaning, "myth" is fable, falsehood, or superstition. But at  another, "myth" is a useful and fruitful image by which we make sense of life in somewhat the same way that we can explain electrical forces by comparing them with the behavior of water or air. Yet "myth," in this second sense, is not to be taken literally, just as electricity is not to be confused with air or water. Thus in using myth one must take care not to confuse image with fact, which would be like climbing up the signpost instead of following the road.

   Myth, then, is the form in which I try to answer when children ask me those fundamental metaphysical questions which come so readily to their minds: "Where did the world come from?" "Why did God make the world?" "Where was I before I was born?" "Where do people go when they die?" Again and again I have found that they seem to be satisfied with a simple and very ancient story, which goes something like this:

   "There was never a time when the world began, because it goes round and round like a circle, and there is no place on a circle where it begins. Look at my watch, which tells the time; it goes round, and so the world repeats itself again and again. But just as the hour-hand of the watch goes up to twelve and down to six, so, too, there is day and night, waking and sleeping, living and dying, summer and winter. You can't have any one of these without the other, because you wouldn't be able to know what black is unless you had seen it side-by-side with white, or white unless side-by-side with black.

   "In the same way, there are times when the world is, and times when it isn't, for if the world went on and on without rest for ever and ever, it would get horribly tired of itself. It comes and it goes. Now you see it; now you don't. So because it doesn't get tired of itself, it always comes back again after it disappears. It's like your breath: it goes in and out, in and out, and if you try to hold it in all the time you feel terrible. It's also like the game of hide-and-seek, because it's always fun to find new ways of hiding, and to seek for someone who doesn't always hide in the same place.

   "God also likes to play hide-and-seek, but because there is nothing outside God, he has no one but himself to play with. But he gets over this difficulty by pretending that he is not himself. This is his way of hiding from himself. He pretends that he is you and I and all the people in the world, all the animals, all the plants, all the rocks, and all the stars. In this way he has strange and wonderful adventures, some of which are terrible and frightening. But these are just like bad dreams, for when he wakes up they will disappear.

   "Now when God plays hide and pretends that he is you and I, he does it so well that it takes him a long time to remember where and how he hid himself. But that's the whole fun of it--just what he wanted to do. He doesn't want to find himself too quickly, for that would spoil the game. That is why it is so difficult for you and me to find out that we are God in disguise, pretending not to be himself. But when the game has gone on long enough, all of us will wake up, stop pretending, and remember that we are all one single Self--the God who is all that there is and who lives for ever and ever.

   "Of course, you must remember that God isn't shaped like a person. People have skins and there is always something outside our skins. If there weren't. we wouldn't know the difference between what is inside and outside our bodies. But God has no skin and no shape because there isn't any outside to him. [With a sufficiently intelligent child, I illustrate this with a Mobius strip--a ring of paper tape twisted once in such a way that it has only one side and one edge.] The inside and the outside of God are the same. And though I have been talking about God as 'he' and not 'she,' God isn't a man or a woman. I didn't say 'it' because we usually say 'it' for things that aren't alive.

  "God is the Self of the world, but you can't see God for the same reason that, without a mirror, you can't see your own eyes, and you certainly can't bite your own teeth or look inside your head. Your self is that cleverly hidden because it is God hiding.

   "You may ask why God sometimes hides in the form of horrible people, or pretends to be people who suffer great disease and pain. Remember, first, that he isn't really doing this to anyone but himself. Remember, too, that in almost all the stories you enjoy there have to be bad people as well as good people, for the thrill of the tale is to find out how the good people will get the better of the bad. It's the same as when we play cards. At the beginning of the game we shuffle them all into a mess, which is like the bad things in the world, but the point of the game is to put the mess into good order, and the one who does it best is the winner. Then we shuffle the cards once more and play again, and so it goes with the world."

  This story, obviously mythical in form, is not given as a scientific description of the way things are. Based on the analogies of games and the drama, and using that much worn-out word "God" for the Player, the story claims only to be like the way things are. I use it just as astronomers use the image of inflating a black balloon with white spots on it for the galaxies, to explain the expanding universe. But to most children, and many adults, the myth is at once intelligible, simple, and fascinating. By contrast, so many other mythical explanations of the world are crude, tortuous, and unintelligible. But many people think that believing in the unintelligible propositions and symbols of their religions is the test of true faith. "I believe," said Tertullian of Christianity, "because it is absurd."

  People who think for themselves do not accept ideas on this kind of authority. They don't feel commanded to believe in miracles or strange doctrines as Abraham felt commanded by God to sacrifice his son Isaac. As T. George Harris put it:

  'The social hierarchies of the past, where some boss above you always punished any error, conditioned men to feel a chain of harsh authority reaching all the way "up there." We don't feel this bond in today's egalitarian freedom. We don't even have, since Dr. Spock, many Jehovah-like fathers in the human family. So the average unconscious no longer learns to seek forgiveness from a wrathful God above.'

But, he continues--

  'Our generation knows a cold hell, solitary confinement in this life, without a God to damn or save it. Until man figures out the trap and hunts . . . "the Ultimate Ground of Being," he has no reason at all for his existence. Empty, finite, he knows only that he will soon die. Since this life has no meaning, and he sees no future life, he is not really a person but a victim of self-extinction."' 2

   "The Ultimate Ground of Being" is Paul Tillich's decontaminated term for God" and would also do for "the Self of the world" as I put it in my story for children. But the secret which my story slips over to the child is that the Ultimate Ground of Being is you. Not, of course, the everyday you which the Ground is assuming, or "pretending" to be, but that inmost Self which escapes inspection because it's always the inspector. This, then, is the taboo of taboos you're IT!

Join me in Peru to celebrate December 21st 2012 - Visit: http://2012awakeningretreat.com/

Re: Tales, myths and religion

Aya,

I want to thank you for this excerpt from Alan Watts.  HOW I've missed never reading him in all my years of searching is somewhat of a mystery to me.  Obviously it wasn't time.

Just this week, I've been reading with great zeal "Open Secrets" by Rami Shapiro who has been likened to the "Jewish Alan Watts" -- which, until this morning meant nothing to me.

And I happened to have FINALLY gotten my stereo system all sorted out and just happened to be listening, as I read your Alan Watts post,  to one of the greatest storytellers, in my opinion, of our time:  Van Morrison and his "Avalon Sunset" CD. 

NR can be quite a magical place -

Christine B.