121 Reply by Haven

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Re: A few questions about Professional Wrestling

morningsun76 wrote:
lyra wrote:

-  Regarding "it only harms the people that are doing it" with homosexuality -  Moralman said this, Neo disagreed, and I say that Yes, sometimes, in fact oftentimes, this lifestyle DOES harm the ones partaking in it.   Absolutely.

Gay/lesbian/bi/trans people come from all races, colors, ethnicities, religions, countries, philosophies and economic classes.   Just as there are a bazillion different types of straight people, the same goes for gay people.   There is no "lifestyle" -- that's a pop-culture concept which reinforces the false assumption that there is a choice involved in sexual orientation.  There is not.  This assumption is, I believe, the fundamental reason why such a large number of people are willing to discriminate, badmouth, throw in jail (or worse in many non-western nations)  10% of their fellow human beings.

I think that it's a pop-culture concept which reinforces that there ISN'T a choice.  A person may be attracted to the same sex by no choice of their own, but that doesn't mean they were born with it.  I personally believe that homosexuality comes from environment, not genes.  To use an example, I would try to cure a pedophile from what I consider a sexual perversion.  I don't think pedophilia is something that is born into a person, and I have to assume that homosexuality isn't either.  On a simple scale, the program that genes follow is to promote the extension of genes into the next generation.  On a more complex scale, homosexuality may serve a purpose.  Robert Anton Wilson says that, as a whole species, with think with the species in mind, not just individual survival.  Homosexuality, to him, may serve a purpose of pushing the mind in different directions, since they aren't ever plugged into the "parent" mind, and aren't, as a result, as conservative.

Spiritually, I think that a very important gnosis comes from the combination of a masculine and feminine energy.  Personally, I have had a journey that took me down that path and am still exploring it.  Also, during my "Dark Night", the distinction I got was that there's a womb, which is essentially feminine, and that "Christ", the ego or male identity, if you will, is born from this emptiness.  Gnosis, to many, is the reaching of a hermaphrodite state.  Hence the Mona Lisa rumors that Leonardo painted himself as a woman, or the Baphomet being male and female.  Even the Bible comments that a man and woman are to become one.  While this is basically an individual process, being involved externally in this sort of relationship is very enlightening and symbolic.

* When we start identifying wisdom with our ability to comprehend its form, what wisdom is that?
* Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
* People want platitudes, not progress.

122 Reply by morningsun76 (edited by morningsun76 2004-12-10 19:26:59)

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Re: A few questions about Professional Wrestling

Haven wrote:

I think that it's a pop-culture concept which reinforces that there ISN'T a choice.  A person may be attracted to the same sex by no choice of their own,

Contradiction.

Haven wrote:

but that doesn't mean they were born with it.  I personally believe that homosexuality comes from environment, not genes.

A  good deal of scientific research is beginning to show otherwise.

Haven wrote:

Robert Anton Wilson says that, as a whole species, with think with the species in mind, not just individual survival.  Homosexuality, to him, may serve a purpose of pushing the mind in different directions, since they aren't ever plugged into the "parent" mind, and aren't, as a result, as conservative.

This has occured to me as well.  GLBT people are much more aware of the fact that traditional "morality" is seriously lacking, and therefore have to basically reinvent the whole subject of morality from the ground up based on rational principles rather than commandments in ancient religious books.  Being forced to view society in many important ways as an outsider gives one a unique perspective on how things can be changed for the better.

Anyway, as long as stuff like this has to be written, I feel a personal duty and obligation to speak out on this subject whenever things are being said that contributes to the problem.  And it's a major problem that's been going on for thousands of years and people are only now becoming aware of it.

123 Reply by Neomatrix (edited by Neomatrix 2004-12-10 19:29:06)

  • From: Zion
  • Registered: 2004-09-28

Re: A few questions about Professional Wrestling

Moralman wrote:

Love is righteousness...........are you stating that Jesus was wrong for condemning the Pharisee's? I suppose Jesus was wrong for whipping the money lenders out of Gods house. What a terrible thing for Jesus to do-after all aren't the money lenders apart of universal oneness?

Was Jesus wrong? Doesn't matter to me as I view him as an entirely fictional character anyway. But even if he wasn't, I wouldn't be making any subjective right/wrong judgments about what he chose to do. What would that accomplish?

Moralman wrote:

Homosexuality is spiritually destructive-it is an imbalance.

This is quite a statement to be making. I'm assuming you have sufficient proof of how a physical act performed in the physical universe can annihilate aspects of our nonphysical energies?

Moralman wrote:

The Higher self is the perfected Human and spiritual self-thats what Jesus Christ was and is and thats what he came for............to teach us to be like him.

Yeah, I came here to learn how to be exactly like someone else. That makes a lot of sense.

Moralman wrote:

I believe that Souls have a gender.

Souls have a penis or a vagina?

Moralman wrote:

In fact in a discussion about Twin souls we earlier discussed that there is a male and female soul that through eternity is spiritually linked eternally.

In point of fact I never actually stated in that thread that I subscribe to the idea of a "Twin Soul": I don't. But yes, there are many Souls with which ours are connected and bonded. The stronger the love, which is generated automatically through a sharing of life experiences here, then the stronger the bond between them.

Moralman wrote:

God made the World and gave us free will to experience everything we could experience.

Okay, great, I'm really happy you said that. If God gave us the free will to experience everything we could experience, why would he then make some of those experiences such a taboo? How can we experience EVERYTHING there is to experience without, for example, experiencing being homosexual or a mass murderer? At this point I'm sure your mind is already formulating a response that includes the old Satan chestnut: "Well Neomatrix, God didn't create those kind of experiences, Satan did!" But, who created Satan? You already said God created Satan, right? So, why would God create something if it violated His divine plan for the cosmos. "I am God, and I will create this Satan entity just so he can deceive my Children and lead them into sin; that way I can have a good excuse to be really, really upset with them and enjoy smiting them with my infinite power."

Moralman wrote:

Obviously if there is a fault in creation the fault lies with those who abuse Gods freewill and Satan and his minions are responsible for that.

If something is working against the will of God, then God is not omnipotent. If God is not omnipotent, then God is not God.

Moralman wrote:

Your definition of Universal oneness is acceptable to a degree-no doubt all Souls were made by God.

Okay, fair enough. If someone else is creating Souls, then there would be two Gods.

Moralman wrote:

However not all Souls please God almighthy the creator.

Why would God Almighty the Creator create something that wouldn't please Him? He must be a really f*cking stupid God to do that.

Moralman wrote:

Is God going to put Jesus Christ and Joseph Stalin on the same pedestal?

???? I fail to see why He would put any of them up on a pedestal.

Moralman wrote:

In the sense of creation all Souls come from the same source but again its like a story of two men from Palistine............one may be a very honourable, peaceful man and another may be a shoe-bomber.

Well, okay. This would be comfortably in line with experiencing all there is to experience.

Moralman wrote:

They may both be from Palistine but they are not the same-would you welcome the latter into your home for tea and biscuits on the assumption that on the basis on Universal oneness he is you and you are him?

Wow, you're a real one shot guy, aren't you? You've talked about your belief in a higher self. So, what about reincarnation? Do you think that we only have one lifetime here, and we have to get it "right", and if we don't we are f*cked forever? What if, in fact, those two men that you mentioned just happened to be two simultaneous incarnations of the same higher self?


Moralman wrote:

I do understand how a person can be unique and equal-if you are simply placing emphasis on source then yes your definition of universal oneness is correct but placing emphasis on the beginning source isn't enough. Jesus Christ and Adolf Hitler may have come from the same source in the beginning but how will history or the future ever make them compatible comparatively?

History... the future... okay, these are all aspects of physical time-space. Do you assume that this world is all there is? Do you not think that perhaps there are other places beyond this universe that we can go? Other energy systems? Other dimensions/densities? In that context, why should anyone give a rat's ass about who's keeping score down here?

Moralman wrote:

God created freewill and from freewill evil through ignorance and human flesh became a reality.

So, ultimately God created evil then? After all, if He hadn't been kind enough to give us all freewill, then none of this evil stuff that offends His delicate sensibilites would ever have taken place, would it? Why not just say, "f*ck freewill", and create us perfect and holy in all ways from the start? That way, He would have been happy.

Moralman wrote:

Hulk Hogan taught children to train, say their prayers and eat their vitamins-he did what was pleasing to God.

Well I'm so glad that someone down here knows how to please this God guy of yours. Sounds like he's pretty easily offended.

Moralman wrote:

Jesus Christ instructs us to love our enemies yet the same Bible states that a day will come when evil will disappeare and a New heaven and Earth will be formed.........I suppose Jesus loves evil enough to let it go and die in the end.

If what you refer to as "evil" does eventually disappear from this planet, it will only be because humanity itself grows out of its childish ignorance and begins acting in a more open and accepting way. That includes accepting the rights of others to chose for themselves who and what they want to be, without fear of judgemental condemnation from people like you.

Moralman wrote:

Homosexuals and lesbians destroy any society that they live in-they try and dominate the atmosphere and it is due to such people that we see such an overflow of immorality in society.

Huh? Sure you weren't thinking of politicians and lawyers when you wrote that?

Moralman wrote:

One thing that I also find irritating is how women love gays.

Why is that so irritating to you? You're not getting any?

Moralman wrote:

Straight women who have boyfriends are fascinated with homosexuals and thats purely on the basis that they act like women.

Maybe that's more of a problem with the fact that straight women can be bitches. Let's think from a woman's point of view for a moment: shall I be friends with the non-judgemental gay guy who won't try and steal my non-gay boyfriend, or shall I be friends with the shallow bitch who more than likely will? A no brainer if you ask me.

Moralman wrote:

It is an imbalancing and confusing aspect to society that angers civilised society. I still think that the World Wrestling Federation should live on after 2012.........homosexuality on the other hand should be a forgotten memory.

You really are open-minded, you know that?

"Fear is the great barrier to human growth. Unknowns create fears. When these Unknowns become Knowns the fears diminish and disappear, and we are able to cope with whatever confronts us." - Robert A. Monroe
  • From: Zion
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Re: A few questions about Professional Wrestling

john the revelator wrote:

Sin has been defined as the transgression of the law (as in commandment law) long before the RC church bent the concept to their own devices. Whether or not you recognize the validity of "sin" is your call, but has no bearing on the reality of sin.

True, but its main vehicle in the world today is the RC church. The concept of sin has no bearing on my reality. Sorry.

john the revelator wrote:

How can you recognize the difference between the sin and the sinner, yet fail to see that it is the sin that is judged, not the sinner? The sinner only pays for unconfessed, hence unforgiven, sins. Ironically, it is precisely those faults which we don't admit to or take responsibility for, that condemn us.

Only the sin is judged? You're gonna throw the sin in jail? You're gonna put the sin into the lake of fire? Okay.

john the revelator wrote:

As for love, to me it's not a passive process such as "agreeing" or "accepting", but an active process culminating in humility and self-sacrifice, and enhancing the human experience.

Love is a process now? That is a new one on me. I've never thought of love as a process. I've always thought of it as a creative, bonding energy yielding infinite variation and potential -- but what do I know?

"Fear is the great barrier to human growth. Unknowns create fears. When these Unknowns become Knowns the fears diminish and disappear, and we are able to cope with whatever confronts us." - Robert A. Monroe
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Re: A few questions about Professional Wrestling

Does "scientific research" reflect causative factors, or resultant conditions? In other words, how would research be able to distinguish between what causes a behavior and what is caused by a behavior? Think of the profound physical changes resulting from mental and other stimuli. 
I think all humans are born with the genetic predisposition toward any and all social deviations and perversions, and that it is mainly environment which determines the repression or the social expression of these genetic tendencies. Without a prevailing (appropriate) moral code, a society will naturally degrade to its lowest form. 
morningsun76, what "rational principles" do you suggest  would be superior to any previous moral codes?

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Re: A few questions about Professional Wrestling

Neomatrix, if you would read a little more carefully, and be a little more thoughtful before jumping on what someone says (which you have a habit of misreading), you wouldn't appear so angry. Or so transparently, willfully contrary. But what do I expect from a wrestling thread?

  • From: Zion
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Re: A few questions about Professional Wrestling

john the revelator wrote:

Neomatrix, if you would read a little more carefully, and be a little more thoughtful before jumping on what someone says (which you have a habit of misreading), you wouldn't appear so angry. Or so transparently, willfully contrary. But what do I expect from a wrestling thread?

Was there some point to this inane and ill-thought out response? I don't care if I appear to be angry or contrary to you. This is just a result of whatever filters you have in place that are distorting and coloring over what I am saying. If you can actually provide EXAMPLES of where I am being contrary, rather than simply saying I am without proof, then that would probably be very helpful. If you are not going to do that, then why waste your time and my time by posting here?

"Fear is the great barrier to human growth. Unknowns create fears. When these Unknowns become Knowns the fears diminish and disappear, and we are able to cope with whatever confronts us." - Robert A. Monroe
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Re: A few questions about Professional Wrestling

john the revelator wrote:

Does "scientific research" reflect causative factors, or resultant conditions? In other words, how would research be able to distinguish between what causes a behavior and what is caused by a behavior? Think of the profound physical changes resulting from mental and other stimuli.

Well, I think that if you take a few minutes to look at the link I posted, which is many Google hits on the subject of the differences in brain anatomy, perhaps you can draw your own conclusions.  I'm not a scientist but my gut tells me that the gender of the person you're attracted to is more likely a result of an anatomical brain difference than a cause of said difference.

john the revelator wrote:

I think all humans are born with the genetic predisposition toward any and all social deviations and perversions,

The term "social deviations" covers an awfully large amount of possible behaviors, and most human behavior is either a conditioned response or a result of one's own thinking mind making decisions. 

john the revelator wrote:

and that it is mainly environment which determines the repression or the social expression of these genetic tendencies.

As far as certain aspects of life ARE governed by physiology, such as sexual orientation or gender identity, I agree.


john the revelator wrote:

Without a prevailing (appropriate) moral code, a society will naturally degrade to its lowest form.  morningsun76, what "rational principles" do you suggest  would be superior to any previous moral codes?

Ayn Rand put it better than I could:

    "The source of man's rights is not divine law or congressional law, but the Law of Identity.  A is A -- and Man is Man.  Rights are conditions of existence required by man's nature for his proper survival.  If man is to live on earth, it is right for him to use his mind, it is right to act on his own free judgment, it is right to work for his values and to keep the product of his work.  If life on earth is his purpose, he has a right to live as a rational being: Nature forbids him the irrational.
    To violate man's rights means to compel him to act against his own judgment, or to expropriate his values.  Basically, there is only one way to do it: by the use of physical force.  There are two potential violators of man's rights: the criminals and the government."

129 Reply by john the revelator (edited by john the revelator 2004-12-10 20:29:58)

  • Registered: 2004-10-03

Re: A few questions about Professional Wrestling

Neomatrix, you said that sin was largely a creation of the RC church. I merely corrected that statement. You then amend your statement in such a way as to indicate that you are still correct.
I state that sinners pay for unacknowledged, unforgiven sin, and you attempt to twist that into a totally ludicrous notion of "putting the sin into the lake of fire".
My definition of love as a process is such a problem to you that you turn around and describe, in essence, a process, but in your words.
Your mocking tone proves your intent, especially in the demeaning tone you take with Moralman.
Now it's your turn to show what exactly you believe is inane about my comments.

  • Registered: 2004-10-03

Re: A few questions about Professional Wrestling

morningsun76, what I'm saying about research (which I have read) is that it's important to Not draw conclusions in advance of complete information. A layman's "gut" feeling about the veracity of scientific research doesn't do much for making up my mind.
Yes, "social deviations" covers a lot--all human behavior, in fact. And almost all human behavior is learned. But it's facilitated by our inherent predilection to deviancy.
The Ayn Rand quote is nice, but what does it have to do with a discussion of moral codes and the rational principles you mentioned?

131 Reply by Neomatrix (edited by Neomatrix 2004-12-10 21:48:27)

  • From: Zion
  • Registered: 2004-09-28

Re: A few questions about Professional Wrestling

john the revelator wrote:

Neomatrix, you said that sin was largely a creation of the RC church. I merely corrected that statement. You then amend your statement in such a way as to indicate that you are still correct.

Sin, in the "bent concept" Roman Catholic form as you called it, is pretty much the only form I and most other people today have ever known. When we talk about sin, isn't it usually that bent Roman Catholic version that we are referring to? I don't think I would even be aware of such a thing without the RC Church. But, I am by no means an expert on Christianity seeing as it is a subject that usually bores me to tears. Is there some other denomination that is as sin obsessed?

john the revelator wrote:

I state that sinners pay for unacknowledged, unforgiven sin, and you attempt to twist that into a totally ludicrous notion of "putting the sin into the lake of fire".

You said it was the sin, not the sinner, that was judged. Doesn't judgment usually imply punishment? If not, then why judge it at all? I don't think that is too much of a stretch to make, is it? However, it is the concept of sin at all that is twisted and ludicrous to me, my friend.

john the revelator wrote:

My definition of love as a process is such a problem to you that you turn around and describe, in essence, a process, but in your words.

Nope. Energy is not a process. Energy in application is a process.

john the revelator wrote:

Your mocking tone proves your intent, especially in the demeaning tone you take with Moralman. Now it's your turn to show what exactly you believe is inane about my comments.

If you don't like my tone, then by all means ignore me.

"Fear is the great barrier to human growth. Unknowns create fears. When these Unknowns become Knowns the fears diminish and disappear, and we are able to cope with whatever confronts us." - Robert A. Monroe
  • Registered: 2004-10-03

Re: A few questions about Professional Wrestling

Neomatrix, it must be empowering for you to be able to speak on behalf of "most other people today" when you reference the undisputed source of their knowledge of the concept of sin as being so clearly  the RC  church. From your picture, I wouldn't have guessed you'd be old enough to have interfaced with, what?, billions of other people in order to make such a statement as to how "most other people today" have come to understand sin. Are you telepathic? Ever hear of the Protestants? Some of them have ideas about sin that make the catholics look absolutely academic.
I stated the obvious regarding your tone. I didn't say I didn't like it. And why do you live in such a black-or-white world? "Sugary and nice" or mean-spirited ill-considered, ill-informed venom are your only alternatives?
You described "energy Yielding infinite variation" of whatever--sounds like an application of energy to me! How else would the energy yield anything unless it was applied?
Lastly, before you again presume to suppose anything about me, you will need to upgrade your system. Your attitude is atrocious and juvenile. And you haven't answered my question.

133 Reply by lyra (edited by lyra 2004-12-10 22:36:57)

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Re: A few questions about Professional Wrestling

morningsun76 wrote:


Gay/lesbian/bi/trans people come from all races, colors, ethnicities, religions, countries, philosophies and economic classes.

Yes.....

morningsun76 wrote:

Just as there are a bazillion different types of straight people, the same goes for gay people.

Yes....



morningsun76 wrote:

  There is no "lifestyle" --

There most certainly IS.   Thank you.   Gay bathhouses.  Mucho drug use.   Lots of porn.  Mags, videos, etc.   Promiscuous sex with strangers using no protection.   Yes, these things can be done by straight people, and often are, but it's EVERYTHING put together.   Don't look at each individual thing, look at all of them combined.  Many gay men partake in much on that abbreviated list I just mentioned.   When I hung out with my gay male buddy at a former job, talked to people, observed people, etc.,  I learned a lot in a very short time.  What he and his partner and all their friends were doing rivaled that of most straight people I know. 

morningsun76 wrote:

that's a pop-culture concept

No, it's fact.


morningsun76 wrote:

  which reinforces the false assumption that there is a choice involved in sexual orientation.

Whoa whoa WHOA, wait just a MINUTE here.   How did we jump from "lifestyle choices" involving drugs, unprotected promiscuous sex, bathhouses, etc., to me saying that being gay is a choice?!?!?!?!?   ?!??!?!?    If you did a search on my posts regarding homosexuality, you will find that I've gone on record at NR as saying that I absolutely believe people are BORN homosexual.   Most do NOT choose it.  So I'm not sure where this fallacious logic jump is coming from.



morningsun76 wrote:

There is not.  This assumption is, I believe, the fundamental reason why such a large number of people are willing to discriminate, badmouth, throw in jail (or worse in many non-western nations)  10% of their fellow human beings.

This entire statement is based on the fallacious conclusion that I've said that being homosexual is a choice.   Which I never did.  So, this whole point is moot.


Bad logic jumps irk me!    tongue

"Life's journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting "Holy shit ... what a ride!"  - Anonymous
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"I get by with a little help from my (higher density) friends."
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134 Reply by Haven (edited by Haven 2004-12-10 22:35:04)

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Re: A few questions about Professional Wrestling

morningsun76 wrote:
Haven wrote:

I think that it's a pop-culture concept which reinforces that there ISN'T a choice.  A person may be attracted to the same sex by no choice of their own,

Contradiction.

It isn't a contradiction.  I was stating that a person may be attracted to the same sex through no willful, conscious effort of their own, but as to it being beyond choice, as in genetic, it might be a false assumption.

* When we start identifying wisdom with our ability to comprehend its form, what wisdom is that?
* Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
* People want platitudes, not progress.
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Re: A few questions about Professional Wrestling

lyra wrote:
morningsun76 wrote:

  There is no "lifestyle" --

There most certainly IS.   Thank you.   Gay bathhouses.  Mucho drug use.   Lots of porn.  Mags, videos, etc.   Promiscuous sex with strangers using no protection.

That may be what some people do.  I don't know anything about bathhouses -- but I know plenty of straight people who are into drugs, porn, sex, and just about anything else that I've heard commonly called the "gay" lifestyle.    It's not MY lifestyle, and it's not Ex-NJ Gov. Jim McGreevey's (I think), and it's not Gore Vidal's, or that of the huge numbers now fighting tooth and nail for legal partnership rights and trying to raise families in peace.  In fact, one of the greatest kept secrets of gay society is that many GLBT folks are just as f*cking plain and boring as most straight people.  Hell, I'm at home alone right now on a Friday night drinking hot tea and posting messages on the internet.  Pretty pathetic and certainly not very fabulous.  Get my point?  So just because some of your friends may do those sort of things  -- that's THEIR lifestyle -- not "the gay lifestyle." 

lyra wrote:

Whoa whoa WHOA, wait just a MINUTE here ... This entire statement is based on the fallacious conclusion that I've said that being homosexual is a choice.

 

The intention was to make the point that what you are and what your lifestyle is are two completely different things.   Not intended to put words in your mouth. 

I'm noticing in different threads that everyone is very jumpy lately.  A friend of mine just let me know that Mercury is currently in retrograde, which has the effect of really causing chaos with communications of all sorts.  Misinterpretations and disagreements are in the stars for the immediate future.