Re: vibrations

On a smaller note, here's a story about quantum whistling.  It provides some interesting ideas for the relationship between sound and vibration.  There's an audio file where you can hear the phenomenon.

Re: vibrations

I just noticed this thread and decided to move this post in case it might open some avenues of thinking.  Forgive the intrusion.

Haven wrote:

I'm beginning to wonder if prime numbers aren't some sort of map/equation coming out from a spiral.  Each prime number resonates and creates... something.  A star?  If 23 were Sirius, where is the 1?

If you match the resonance of a prime number, then that links to the original resonance.

Could it be that particular sub-resonances create planets revolving around a prime number resonant star?

Is gravity a resonance?  Is that why you hear that anti-gravity is produced by "sound"?

* When we start identifying wisdom with our ability to comprehend its form, what wisdom is that?
* Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
* People want platitudes, not progress.

18 (edited by Haven 2005-01-30 22:17:56)

Re: vibrations

Further clues might be found in prime numbers and quantum gravity, as well as the relation of orbits to sound scales.

Don't forget clues of physics encoded in spiritual beliefs.  Fractals.  Riemann?

* When we start identifying wisdom with our ability to comprehend its form, what wisdom is that?
* Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
* People want platitudes, not progress.

19 (edited by Haven 2005-01-30 22:26:58)

Re: vibrations

http://www.noelhodson.com/index_files/u … _nov02.htm

Note on the Music of the Primes – 27 October 04


The Music of the Primes by Marcus du Sautoy is almost completely incomprehensible to a non-mathematician such as me. But it triggers a vague thought that I want to write down and thus crystallise.



The book is about prime numbers (numbers that can only be divided by themselves or one without a remainder – thus they are the indivisible building blocks of all other numbers) and The Riemann Hypothesis. Bernhard Riemann (1826-66), conceived a “Zeta Landscape”  being a four-dimensional model of mathematical functions based on the zeta-function, created “in Euler’s day”  (1707-1783) into which Bernhard Riemann inputted real numbers (numbers on the mathematicians’  “number-line” ) and, as his innovative new step, he also inputted  imaginary numbers (denoted by “i”  of which the most usual example is the square root of minus one).



Four dimensions can be more pictorially thought of as four consequences – or four impacts – of a changing number. For example, as the author explains by reference to the economists’ Interest Rate, changes in the birth-rate have impacts on a large number of factors or dimensions of society – total population, housing required, schools, hospitals, transport, clothing etc. and some of these factors have consequences for the future on a time-line that is mathematically infinite.  To draw the reality of all such “dimensions”  on a single graph or with a three dimensional model, from a single function or formula, is impossible – but they are nevertheless real effects or dimensions.



Riemann bridged fields of mathematics that had not before been linked and saw or conceived with the inner vision of a mathematician and geometrician that his zeta-landscape map could be extrapolated from peaks and valleys, including a single peak that rose to infinity (for the number one), down to “sea-level”  where the outcome was always zero.



Here I am completely lost. But I read and can only believe that from this sea-shore of zero results, stretching north and south as far as imagination allows, these sea-level or zero results for any and all numbers (East & West or positive and negative numbers) fed into the zeta-landscape-function allow us to count – by counting the zero’s – the occurrences of prime-numbers between values, say from 0 to 10 or from 0 to 100,000,000. And it seems that Carl Gauss (1772-1855) had earlier estimated this same occurrence up to 100 million and his logarithmic based calculation Gauss’s Prime Number Conjecture, checked in modern times by actually identifying each prime-number on a computer (5,761,455 primes up to 100M – excluding the number one), showed only 754 more primes than reality – a tiny error of 100th of 1%.



Riemann did the same estimate on his zeta-landscape and reduced the error to 97 extra primes – just 1000th of one percent wrong.



Riemann then plotted where the “significant”  zeros lay on his map or landscape and found that they lined up – on what has been termed a magical-ley-line. Not only do the zeros, representing primes, line up but they occur in patterns that come close to predicting what the next prime number will be. So far no recurring pattern has been identified in the sequence of prime-numbers that allows the next prime-number to be calculated from the sequence. Riemann then hypothesised that all the zeros, however many primes there are to infinity, would line up. That is the Riemann Hypothesis – with a million dollars still waiting for the mathematical proof.



What has this to do with music and what is my point? Part of the basis underlying Riemann’s zeta-landscape is the discovery by Pythagoras (ancient Greece) that musical harmony requires sound vibrations that are related to each other by whole number divisions – not parts of whole numbers. i.e. If the first pleasing note is played on a 20 pint jug of water, harmonious notes will be found at 10 pints, 5 pints, 4 pints, 40 pints etc. whereas discordant notes occur at 19 pints,  3 pints and all numbers that when divided into 20 leave a remainder.  These whole number relationships find parallels with prime-numbers, the building blocks of all numbers.



Whole, indivisible numbers put me in mind of the primary particles, the fractals and building blocks of the universe – that EIG – Expansion is Gravity, speculates about.



Marcus du Sautoy continues his narrative to include Probability Theory, Quantum Drums and Chaos Theory (which is actually order-out-of-chaos theory). Many brilliant modern mathematicians have and are contributing to the processes that bring progress – Marcus du Sautoy particularly cites the work of Hugh Montgomery (Princeton, Michigan and Cambridge) who followed Riemann’s zeros along the ley-line and found in 1971 that they would repel each other (space out) whereas primes tend to cluster or attract each other. And he observed that the zeros distribution was not random.  His distribution graphs uncannily mirrored similar graphs being drawn from experiments for the quantum energy calculations of the 68th element in the periodic tables Erbium. Montgomery’s thought was that perhaps the reality of quantum energies in atoms was the pattern that underlies the sequence of Riemann’s zeros. The hugely complex quantum energy sequences are mapped as if on a vibrating drum-skin – not as if they are a planetary system. 



What is fundamental to quantum physics starting with black-body radiation and, as yet, not understood is the quantum leap – the discrete changes – as if in sudden and not smooth steps – between energy levels. Similar steps occur at a very detailed level in prime number sequences “the prime number staircase” .  On a Cray computer Andrew Odlyzko at AT&T looked for Riemann zeros up to 10 trillion and found 100,000 zeros. A not entirely convincing pattern started to emerge. Odlyzko took the computations up to 1020 and found that plotting the sequence of Riemann zeros almost exactly matched similar patterns – quantum probability energies – found in the heavy nuclei of complex atoms – as if “being produced by some complicated mathematical drum” .



Here at last is my NB.



EIG posits an idea as to how matter (particles) is created from pure energy (light  - the electromagnetic field)  - namely by Hubble expansion sucking in energy and spinning it to form a surface. These primary fractals, as in string-theory, may be no larger than Planck’s Length which is 10-35 metres. These universal fractals are, like prime numbers, by definition indivisible – any division renders them back to pure energy. Like Riemann’s zeros they repel each other and they seek even spacing – but, like the prime number sequences, they are subject to forces that draw them together in patterns, like quantum energies, and clump them together. Do these universal fractals bind together in prime-number units? Are other numbers, non-prime numbers, of universal fractals inherently unstable?



The most recently calculated primes are 100 digits long. They are immense numbers; but even such vast numbers of universal fractals clumped together – say in the heart of a super-massive star or black-hole (but still Hubble expanding) – are not inconceivable.  Just how many universal fractals can we fit on the head of a pin?



Think on’t Lad !

* When we start identifying wisdom with our ability to comprehend its form, what wisdom is that?
* Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
* People want platitudes, not progress.

Re: vibrations

Check out this cool video of cymatics in a semi-liquid mixture:

http://www.youtube.com/watch.php?v=CH6- … ch=science

When the mixture is vibrated, standing waves form...and when a puff of air indents the surface, the hole does not disappear. When the vibrations are really strong, the hole does something amazing. You have to watch to find out!

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

Re: vibrations

Tom that is one of the coolest videos ever.  how the 'finger like protrustions' develop and seemingly multiply just blows my mind. 

A few days ago I tried a cymatics experiment with salt in a flat metal pot, on top of my computer subwoofer (as in Braden's old book 'Awakening to Zero Point', regarding which if I was a jury I would still be out).  With tone generator s-ware i was trying to get a pattern going but couldn't even get the stuff to vibrate.  Guess not enough juice smile

"The unknown does not incite fear, but dependence on the known does." - J. Krishnamurti

Re: vibrations

Glad you liked the video, I could watch it all day!

If you would like to try again with a cymatics experiment, find something that is both flat and flexible. The more pliable, the lower its resonant frequency and the lower the pitch you need to get results. You know, like a guitar string that is relaxed...it naturally vibrates at a lower pitch. Metal will work well if you have something loud and high pitched. Hit it with a spoon and you'll hear a high pitched "ting" -- if you can play a loud sound at that frequency and its multiples, it will work.

What I did once was stretch a latex glove over the open top of a tin can, then put the other open end over a speaker hooked up to the computer. With baby powder on top, I definitely got some patterns at certain frequencies. Nothing too fancy, but the powder would also clump up into little moving islands. I also tried drops of water, and that was pretty cool.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

Re: vibrations

roughly how many decibels / ampage did you need to get your experiment to work, and did you use a normal speaker or subwoofer? 

Was the latex glove on the bottom of the double-open ended can (so the powder was 'inside') or on the top (so the powder was on top)?

"The unknown does not incite fear, but dependence on the known does." - J. Krishnamurti

Re: vibrations

The sound was as loud as when you hum a song or whistle. I used a three inch speaker from RadioShack stuck inside the bottom of a PVC pipe coupler and a latex membrane stretched and secured over the other end.

For a quick version, try stretching the latex over the speaker itself. Otherwise stretch and secure it over a tin can so that it's taught like a drum and goes "thwanggggg" when you snap it, and hold the other end as close as you can to a computer speaker or subwoofer. Try frequencies between 100-500Hz. Use baby powder or cornstarch or flour for interesting results. Here is a tone generator if you need one: http://www.nch.com.au/tonegen/index.html

To do the "famous" cymatics experiments, you would need a thin metal plate connected at the very center to the vibrating source. So the center is vibrating, which sends out waves in all directions that then bounce back upon each other and create standing waves of certain patterns at certain frequencies. I haven't tried that yet, because ideally one would use a "piezoelectric transducer" instead of a magnetically driven speaker to turn the electrical signal into powerful and rapid vibrations. I haven't had the resources to do the job properly, so haven't attempted that one yet.

I did buy a granite plate once to record its resonant frequencies and try playing the tone back, but the sound waves weren't strong enough and I'd have to use that piezo transducer instead. Could probably shatter the plate if it hits the right note.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

Re: vibrations

Tom, missed this post earlier, thanks very much for the elaborate description.  So ideally the part between the latex & speaker would be open-ended tin can and the part below the speaker would be the pvc coupler?  Would the can 'fit in' to the coupler just so, or be glued on top for example? 

You got me going on this again and I think I'll have to give it a proper try.  smile

"The unknown does not incite fear, but dependence on the known does." - J. Krishnamurti

Re: vibrations

hi visavis, the tin can was an alternate setup to the PVC coupler.  So, one or the other. The only advantage to the coupler is that it has a flared base and a cylindrical top, so that it can be set sturdily on a table with the speaker inside pointing up at the latex over the top. Also, the distance between latex and speaker is smaller than with a tin can unless you use a stubby can.

Another thing to try would be filling a brownie pan halfway with water and setting it over your subwoofer speaker, then looking at a light's reflection as you play different low tones. At certain frequencies you should be able to get somewhat stable patterns on there. The cheaper the pan, the better, because the more flexible the metal, the more easily the sound waves flex it to vibrate the water.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

Re: vibrations

i went out and got some stuff and did this experiment.  4" speaker, pcv pipe, wire/plug to connect the speaker to my soundcard, and latex gloves.  I got some semi-interesting bits of pattern in the flour, between 75 and 100 Hz... above 130 Hz it was hard to get any movement in the powder particles. 

I also tried salt, particles were too large and coarse for the small 4" surface, they just bounced around without any patterning.  I'm gonna give water a go...

One very interesting thing I noticed was I tried also putting my subwoofer next to the apparatus, laterally.  At certain frequencies, it would 'draw' the salt (on top of the latext drum) toward it... certain frequencies (only a few Hz away) would repel the salt, which would travel to the other side and fall off. 

Hmm... so I could just see the 'edges' of the phenomena so far.  I don't think I had a proper set up for a controlled environment.  But interesting, nonetheless.  smile

"The unknown does not incite fear, but dependence on the known does." - J. Krishnamurti

28 (edited by whywhywhy 2005-12-01 09:07:09)

Re: vibrations

Hi Montalk!

I have been quite interested in Cymatics ever since your post.  I read Hans Jenny’ book but it was not the highly technical book I was expecting.  Don't get me wrong I did enjoy the book and the pictures but it was not exactly what I was looking for.  I decided to build 1' x 1' plates and control the rate of vibration using piezoelectric transducers as you suggested but have run into a few setbacks.  I wanted to be able to control the plate vibration rate as well as the amplitude using a single transducer.  This appears to be a problem because these devices will vibrate at a fixed frequency and this is solely determined by the transducer properties.  There are a few things I could do such as building a driver and controlling the power fed to the transducer but this is more work than I expected.  I really wanted to run my tests at low frequencies (5-300 HZ) to study levitation effects (if any) on small pebbles or materials of different densities.  So, I changed directions and am considering using my computer to control the sound being fed to a hi-tech speaker.  I am looking for software (I have a few leads) where I can record single words & vowels and loop them to make a continuous sound pattern to be sent to the speaker.  The speaker is to be mounted similar to your suggestion to visavis.  I do think that several speakers will be required to be able to levitate an object and make it hold its position.  Let me explain.

First the incident and reflected waves must be somewhere around 135 degrees from each other.  If the reflected wave is 180 degrees from the incident a destructive wave collision should be expected.  If one speaker is placed directly underneath the object a pulsating up & down movement should be observed (on the object) and the object will not hold its position in space.  If the speaker setup is placed in such a way that the angle between incident and reflected waves is 135 degrees the collisions between the waves is reduced.  If a speaker is placed on each cardinal point (in relation to the object) and the sound waves are synchronized (same signal is fed to all 4 speakers)  one would expect the object to hold its position in space for there is a constant force (at 45 degrees in relation to the ground or grade)  on each cardinal point acting on the object.  Of course, this is assuming I am using the right frequency and the object can be levitated.  I honestly would love to hear your opinion on this.  I am considering spherical objects only at this time.

Regards

P.S. It will be allright to say I am nuts! hehehehe

29

Re: vibrations

Very interesting thread, in part anyway, on Coral Castle.   It's cool to see Montalk has actually visited the site and got a chance to see those big coral block's up close. 

I wonder if anyone remember's the airplane seat suspended by the high ceiling in Leedskalnin's home?   I wonder what part that had to play in the "sound wave focusing" (I remember most of what the C's had to say about this), and building it all with such ease.

I can't help but think of the "purifing harness" from the Carlos Castaneda book's, the harness Don Juan used to help Carlos rid himself of ailment's the are not physical, and also to help him learn a few thing's that were only hinted at in the book's.

It makes you also wonder if Billy Idol's song, Sweet Sixteen, wasn't a "mis-direct", I could not help but think his "handler's" put him up to that one.

Re: vibrations

Montalk,

I've been researching Coral Castle for years now (from afar). How fortunate you were to have an opportunity to visit!

I have a question (fire up your memory cells...). I was watching "Weird US" on the History channel a while back, and I caught the last bit of an episode on Coral Castle. After elaborating on the remaining eccentricities of that place, the two hosts were shown this large, four foot long rock. It was positioned horizontally on a pivot point, and one of the sides was concave. The "tour guide" had one of the hosts stand in front of the rock while the concave side was pointed away from him. He performed a kinesiology demonstration with the hosts arm (there was moderate resistance) and asked him to pick up an adjacent boulder. It felt normally heavy to the host. Then he pivoted the rock so that the concave side was pointed at the host. When he repeated the kinesiology demonstration, there was considerably more resistance from the host's arm, and the adjacent boulder was quite easy to lift.

Did you happen to see this particular boulder, or have any additional insite regarding its "operation"?

Magis Amica Veritas

I would rather control myself, than someone else.

en courage (heart)
in spire (spirit)
en thuse (theos)