Marijuana (Page 5 of 8)

Oh dear, some horribly innacurate assumptions from you there Lyra.

No they're not. Drugs DON'T many anyone enlightened and I don't really know anyone that claims they do. And if anyone came here and did claim that drugs made them enlightened I'd probably be amongst the first to laugh at them.

A terrible assumption to make and who are you to say who is ready to handle and process something? Now if you're talking about teenagers that are just taking drugs cos it's fun and it gets them high, then I agree with you wholeheartedly. However my experience in Brazil is that the majority of people going there are middle-aged people who have been fairly longterm spiritual seekers who are wanting to take their knowledge/experience to another level (just like Icke did), which is exactly what Ayahuasca does. It usually helps you to clarify and often experience what you already 'know' and understand. 

Again, the majority of people I've taken ayahuasca with HAVE gone through the process of learning it. I don't know anybody that sees it as a fast-track to enlightenment, and if they did then it would leave them very disappointed.

I think you're missing an important point. Most people see hallucinogens like ayahuasca as PART of their journey. It's certainly been an important part of my journey. Nobody I've ever known has taken ayahuasca and then said "Wow, that's it, i've reached the destination, I'm enlightened!" That's just ludicrous and if that's what you think people are like then I suggest you learn a bit more about the subject and even talk to real people who have done ayahuasca.

I think at the very most, after taking ayahuasca, people probably think they've taken a few big steps further along from where they were, but I don't see anything wrong with that.

I've said a few times before, these substances are teachers, nothing more and nothing less. Yes they give some pretty powerful lessons, but to say that people aren't ready for those lessons is extremely patronising in my opinion. Nobody becomes enlightened by reading a book, or attending a lecture, and likewise noone becomes enlightened from taking ayahuasca or mushrooms or whatever. But all of them help us learn and they can all take us a bit further along whatever path we're walking.

I think David Icke said well with:

Wow Ayahuasca......get defensive much??   

All I can say is, I wanted to put in my view on things and yet I knew that you specifically were going to get on here and just jump all over it.  I had to make a decision....do I go ahead with what I'd like to say so that *everybody* on the forum can read the post for consideration, or, do I censor myself and keep quiet because Ayahuasca is going to jump on it?   Well, I went ahead and posted my thoughts anyway.   Interesting that it went exactly as I knew it would.    Oh well.

I don't think anyone's asking you to censor yourself. I 'jumped' on you not just because I don't agree with your opinion, but because you were saying a few things that I think are extremely innacurate and I just wanted to set the record straight.

Hallucinogenics are not a short-cut to enlightenment and I think it's dangerous for people to think that they are. And hallucinogenics are not seen as a destination, but an important part of the journey. There is a huge difference there.

By you're own admission you've never taken hallucinogens, and judging by your comments in this thread and others, it's clearly a subject you know very little about.  Perhaps you should learn about hallucinogens before you make statements about them, and I don't mean take them, but just read up on them.

Two books I can really recommend are Terrence McKenna's "Food of the Gods" which you can download from my directory in the file section. And Daniel Pinchbeck's "Breaking Open The Head". Both books are worth reading even if you're not all that interested in the subject.

I don't have problem with people who are against taking hallucinogens, it's a very personal choice and I would always respect peoples decision on that. I just don't like to see people making inaccurate or misleading statements about them.

Andy

A shortcut to what though? I don't think that many people can say in total honesty that they know where they going, so how can they take a shortcut there? 

If you were to say a shortcut to enlightenment then I would say 'well what's enlightenment?'

If it's a shortcut to getting out of the matrix then I would say 'well what is wrong with that?' Isn't that what we're all wanting to do here anyway? Stuie Wilde seems to be encouraging us to try and get out of here!

Personally I don't believe that hallucinogens are a short-cut to any of those things. I don't really think short-cuts even exist, I think we're all exactly where we need to be, whether that means being in the middle of an ayahuasca journey or doing some other spiritual activity.

Wherever you are in life, whether in this density or another, there will ALWAYS be more lessons to learn. Until we return to the source then I don't think we ever stop learning. I think that in this reality hallucinogens possibly can take you a little bit further, faster, but there will never be a destination. Even if we were to make it out of the matrix I'm sure we would find ourselves in whole new realm with a million new lessons to learn.

Personally I think ayahuasca is more about remembering than learning. I don't think it can teach us anything we don't already know, just stuff that we don't consciously know. This is certainly true if many of us here really are wanderers, or advanced souls from a higher realm (and I'm not saying we are, but it's a possibility). And if that's the case then aya can only be a good thing because it's just helping to remind us of elementry stuff that we probably went through and already learned a million years ago or whatever!

Well I respect that opinion, but I would strongly disagree. Now I would certainly never say that hallucinogens are the only way, or even the very best way to get answers but I've first-hand experience of seeing them work extremely well for a lot of people. Not so much with Mushrooms but certainly with ayahuasca.  There is no doubt in my mind that ayahuasca is an incredible spiritual teacher, who I would personally trust over any author or channelled material around today.

I maybe wrong but I don't think the Illuminati can corrupt Ayahuasca.

Andy

Seems to me the defensiveness had more to do with defending a personal "sacred cow" moreso than caring about what you believe to be innacurate information.      But that could just be the way I'm interpreting the way your words came out.

Oh, and btw, my views weren't presented as absolute truth.  It was an *OPINION* for *CONSIDERATION.*   So, if you choose to take it as an absolute statement of truth which in turn needs to be jumped on and "defended" in a fiesty defensive manner, well, that's your deal.   

Dangerous, huh?  Wow!   I don't know, I can think of some things in life that could be deemed "dangerous".   But not being keen on taking hallucinogens isn't one of those things.....guess we all define "dangerous" differently!

Like I said....get defensive much?      You seem to be in an awfully um, "fiesty" mood lately, ready to rip people apart at the drop of a hat......and for what?   Expressing an opinion?   Hmm. 

See, you could get on here and say, "You know, I don't agree with this opinion, I see things differently.  Let me tell you why...."

But no.   Instead, you choose to take the route I just mentioned, of jumping down people and (trying to) bully them, for lack of a better word. 

If you were able to express your difference of opinion in a calm rational manner I'd be more than happy to discuss this with you.  I'm very responsive to calm difference of opinion.   Many of my personal views have been altered and changed through people calmly explaining something.    Tend to shut down though and walk away when people start gettin' fiesty out of personal ego / personal issues.

Especially don't care for the angle of "OH, well, you even admit that you haven't taken hallucinogins, so therefore you have no right to an opinion on the topic!!"

Um, nice logic there.     I'll keep that one in mind........we at Noble Realms are only allowed to express opinions on topics we have directly and personally experienced for ourselves.  That's it.  If you haven't directly experienced it, then shut up and sit back down.  It doesn't matter what you may have witnessed with others around you.   That has NO bearing, in fact, you may as well not have even witnessed it at all, because again, since you didn't directly experience it, it has NO validity. 

yeah...

Anyway, won't waste my time addressing all three posts of yours devoted to rabidly defending halluncinogens.   You've stated your case, I've expressed my opinion.   Others have chipped in their 2 cents.  That's what the point of all this is.....isn't it?

PS EDIT:   Boy, it never ceases to amaze me............I get on here and very calmly and nicely agreed with something ermolai write, chipped in my passive and nicely written opinion on what I think about pot, and hallucinogens, didn't target anybody, didn't disagree with anybody, didn't reference anybody in any negative way....and despite that, look where this has turned.   THEN....I responded to Zonabi, and Aya goes after THAT post, which wasn't even addressed to him.  I mean, WHAT the.....?!   It's like dude, CHILL OUT.     So again, I have to point out in case this gets overlooked..........I knew this was going to happen.  I knew Ayahuasca would specifically get on here and jump down my throat (figuratively speaking....;) )  and I just knew it would happen.  Take a moment to think about that for a second.......

This jumped from a marijuana thread to a ayahuasca thread:  so I feel safe <oh boy>
in adding my two cents - one cent for each drug.

Marijuana ... from observation ... people I know who have used marijuana since early pre-teen or teens into adulthood do not function that well in life.  They are way too laid back and take 4 times as long to get anything done.  They are sweet, caring fathers BUT not good providers. They are very rigid in their viewpoints and can be extremely volatile. An observation from 3 different people.  My experience: used it often over 35 years ago, for a period of a year or two.  Nothing since.  Opened some doors spiritually perhaps.  Mostly I was in a stupor.

The plant, Ayahuasca ... never experienced.  But from what I've read it is very different than other hallucinogens like LSD, mescaline even mushrooms.  Most sites when talking about ayahuasca will say the plant itself is a spirit that guides you.  Recently I meant an accupuncturist who studied with Alberto Villoldo (author Shamen, Sage and Healer) for 3 years.  He told me of his ayahuasca experience and stated that it was, for him, the culmination of what he had been looking for in all his years of being a seeker.  He felt through this one experience, he had found HIS path ... which interestingly no longer included working with Villoldo.  He didn't feel as if he had "made it" ... just that his path was now clear to him.  Don't know what that path is ... didn't ask.

Moreover, ayahuasca experiences often include physical healing, according to what I've read and heard, which other hallucinogens I don't believe claim to do at all.  Whether or not this is true about the healing properties of ayahuasca, I don't know but it would seem to me IF one can really open spiritual doors ... then the physical healing is very possible.

Two cents ...  2 paragraphs per cent

Peace.
edited for typos

I guess what I'm defending is not any particular hallucinogen, but most peoples reasons for taking them. Because in my experience I've never met any serious spiritual seeker who has taken a drug to become enlightened and I don't think I've ever met anyone that even believes a particular drug will make them enlightened. I guess I find that idea a little ridiculous and I woudn't want that to be someones perception of me.

Everyone I know that has taken aya (which is around 75 people now) has seen it as an important part of their journey, but never ever a destination. Aya does help to clarify a lot of things, although in many ways it still leads to more questions than answers. Again, I hate the idea that anyone thinks I've reached a destination just because I've taken aya several times. Nothing could be further from the truth, and I think everyone I know would say exactly the same thing.

I never said you had no right to voice an opinion, but I do think if you had more knowledge on the subject then you would have a very different opinion. Now I'm certainly not saying it would make you change your mind and want to take a hallucinogen but I think you would at least have a better understanding of other peoples reasons for taking them.

And yes, people can and do bake their brains, but in my experience those sorts of people are rarely, if ever, into spirituality. The people who bake their brains on drugs are usually just using drugs as a way to escape reality and not take any responsibility for their lives. They don't use drugs for any other reason than to get high and 'f*cked up'. In no way would I ever condone that sort of attitude to drugs!

I think some scientific studies have actually shown that mushrooms, and certainly ayahuasca have absolutely no long term ramifications on your brain, but I'll do a bit of research into that and find some sources. However most synthetic drugs like X, cocaine and speed definitely can have very bad longterm effects. My conclusion? Always trust mother nature and ignore the man-made drugs

Personally I don't think any drug can ever lead to enlightenment, but they can certainly lead to a greater understanding, and indeed I think that's why most people take them - for a greater understanding. I really can't see how that is a bad thing. Surely a greater understanding is always better than a lesser understanding.

In my experience that's not how these teachers work. Aya doesn't really teach you just by telling you stuff, even though I suppose that's what seemingly happened by David Icke's account. It's not very easy to describe what actually happens and no two aya experiences are ever the same anyway. More often than not the lesson you will get from an aya experience will be something to do with an issue you have going on in your life at that particular time. If you're looking to change direction in your life aya will usually help you choose the way. If you have a relationship problem aya will often help you see things in a different way and show you the best way to resolve the problem.  In most cases aya is a very practical teacher and gives you only what you need to hear at that particular moment, just like the oracle in The Matrix

Ayahuasca as an oracle. Now I definitely like that analogy

If you go into an aya experience expecting to learn all the secrets of the universe then you will be sorely disappointed.  She might give you a few hints and prod you in the right direction, but the rest you will have to work out for yourself. This is why it's definitely not a bullettrain to enlightenment. My feeling is that aya is somekind of highly evolved and very intelligent nature spirit, that seems very STO in nature and so for that reason she doesn't hand you all the answers on a plate. Hard work is required on your part if you want to learn anything from her. But that's just my perception based on my experiences.

Anyway I hope that answers your questions and clears up any misunderstandings. I'm sorry I acted all defensive earlier, I've had a splitting headache for most of the day so I haven't been in the best of moods.

Sorry sorry, love me, love me

Andy