Topic: Elimination of Fear is the Beginning of Attention

I am NOT a poster-boy for J. Krishnamurti - but I do find a great amount of substance in the messages he offers ...

the following quotes relate to so many topics that different people have been posting on this site lately - that's why i wanted to share this ... and while i think these quotes are great (i get these emailed to me - but i think i'm going to cut that off soon), i think- it's good to remember that they're just snippets out of whole dialogues ...



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How is the state of attention to be brought about? It cannot be cultivated through persuasion, comparison, reward, or punishment, all of which are forms of coercion. The elimination of fear is the beginning of attention. Fear must exist as long as there is an urge to be or to become, which is the pursuit of success, with all its frustrations and tortuous contradictions. You can teach concentration, but attention cannot be taught, just as you cannot possibly teach freedom from fear, and in understanding these causes there is the elimination of fear. So attention arises spontaneously when around the student there is an atmosphere of well-being, when he has the feeling of being secure, of being at ease, and is aware of the disinterested action that comes with love. Love does not compare, and so the envy and torture of "becoming" cease.

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What do we mean by attention? Is there attention when I am forcing my mind to attend? When I say to myself, "I must pay attention, I must control my mind and push aside all other thoughts," would you call that attention? Surely that is not attention. What happens when the mind forces itself to pay attention? It creates a resistance to prevent other thoughts from seeping in; it is concerned with resistance, with pushing away; therefore it is incapable of attention. That is true, is it not?

To understand something totally you must give your complete attention to it. But you will soon find out how extraordinarily difficult that is, because your mind is used to being distracted, so you say, "By Jove, it is good to pay attention, but how am I to do it?" That is, you are back again with the desire to get something, so you will never pay complete attention. ...When you see a tree or a bird, for example, to pay complete attention is not to say, "That is an oak," or, "That is a parrot," and walk by. In giving it a name you have already ceased to pay attention. ...Whereas, if you are wholly aware, totally attentive when you look at something, then you will find that a complete transformation takes place, and that total attention is the good. There is no other, and you cannot get total attention by practice. With practice you get concentration, that is, you build up walls of resistance, and within those walls of resistance is the concentrator, but that is not attention, it is exclusion.

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n the cultivation of the mind, our emphasis should not be on concentration, but on attention. Concentration is a process of forcing the mind to narrow down to a point, whereas attention is without frontiers. In that process the mind is always limited by a frontier or boundary, but when our concern is to understand the totality of the mind, mere concentration becomes a hindrance. Attention is limitless, without the frontiers of knowledge. Knowledge comes through concentration, and any extension of knowledge is still within its own frontiers. In the state of attention the mind can and does use knowledge, which of necessity is the result of concentration; but the part is never the whole, and adding together the many parts does not make for the perception of the whole. Knowledge, which is the additive process of concentration does not bring about the understanding of the immeasurable. The total is never within the brackets of a concentrated mind.

So attention is of primary importance, but it does not come through the effort of concentration. Attention is a state in which the mind is ever learning without a center around which knowledge gathers as accumulated experience. A mind that is concentrated upon itself uses knowledge as a means of its own expansion; and such activity becomes self-contradictory and anti-social.

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Is there attention without anything absorbing the mind? Is there attention without concentrating upon an object? Is there attention without any form of motive, influence, compulsion? Can the mind give full attention without any sense of exclusion? Surely it can, and that is the only state of attention; the others are mere indulgence, or tricks of the mind. If you can give full attention without being absorbed in something, and without any sense of exclusion, then you will find out what it is to meditate; because in that attention there is no effort, no division, no struggle, no search for a result. So meditation is a process of freeing the mind from systems, and of giving attention without either being absorbed or making an effort to concentrate.

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You know what space is. There is space in this room. The distance between here and your hostel, between the bridge and your home, between this bank of the river and the other–all that is space. Now, is there also space in your mind? Or is it so crowded that there is no space in it at all? If your mind has space, then in that space there is silence–and from that silence everything else comes, for then you can listen, you can pay attention without resistance. That is why it is very important to have space in the mind. If the mind is not overcrowded, not ceaselessly occupied, then it can listen to that dog barking, to the sound of a train crossing the distant bridge, and also be fully aware of what is being said by a person talking here. Then the mind is a living thing, it is not dead.


J. Krishnamurti

... checking out the mirror of relationship ...

Re: Elimination of Fear is the Beginning of Attention

i wanted to mention this because -- well -- because i don't know why actually -- i was debating about writing this, but here i am ...

right after i put up this quote, about "attention" - i got off the comp. to go out with my dad - i had to drive us somewhere, and - during that drive, as we were exiting our complex, i had to make a turn onto the main street - in attempting to do so - i almost ran over this lady who was walking on the sidewalk RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME - i completely didn't see her ... my dad had to point her out to me, and in truth, i didn't really almost run her over - i was still a little way from hitting her and my foot was on the break as i was inching forward, but i STILL COMPLETELY DIDN"T SEE HER until my dad said HEY !  ... after that happened, it hit me so hard ...

here i was putting up a quote about this attention - saying it has substance - but in practise - i obviously don't (or at least didn't at that moment) have it ...

not much use in going back and analyzing the situation now - but i know that when i was trying to cross the road - my thought and my vision was FOCUSSED on 2 particular spots - it wasn't all aware of everything including what was close and right in front of me ...

(i've been driving for over 10 years and i honestly can't remember anything like this ever happening to me)

... checking out the mirror of relationship ...

Re: Elimination of Fear is the Beginning of Attention

Intresting.  Today as I was biking to work, and seeing how I didn't venture into town for the past 3-3 days, I was observing the busy city.  And wow, it was busy.  Traffic everywhere, people busy busy busy all over the place looking like they all just need a looooong break.  So anyways for some reason I had a thought along the lines of "If people aren't in control of their own lives, not paying attention, and are busy all the time, they aren't safe" and then no later than I thought that... I almost get hit by a car!  I was just biking on the sidewalk, and this guy was pulling out of the gas station.. and everytime I cross a place I always look at the person to see if they are looking BOTH WAYS!  But obvisouly this guy wasn't, and he hit my left foot, and somehow.. although it was a fairly hard collision.. I just keept on moving foward.  It didn't even move me come to think of it.. but he drove right into me. 

I may have attracted that incident with those thoughts.. but that is a quick manifestation

Thus, attention is a very useful tool if one wished to live - many "problems" could be avoided with this, not too meantion intuition that is coupled with attention.

"Beyond the stars a new world awaits me now" - Wintersun

Re: Elimination of Fear is the Beginning of Attention

it's difficult sometimes, don't be too hard on yourself.  Some people, because of the difference in vibratory rates I think, can be something close to 'invisible' to others.  I've experienced this myself I'm pretty sure. 

And other times when I feel down or whatever, my aura isn't projecting much so I go semi-voluntarily invisible.  The "tick-tocker" people especially do not percieve me easily.  If that makes any sense.  The whole invisible thing could be due to one of a number of different things I think.

"The unknown does not incite fear, but dependence on the known does." - J. Krishnamurti

Re: Elimination of Fear is the Beginning of Attention

Well, if we can be experiencing other dimensions or vibratory rates simultaneously, than maybe with a shift in our attention that brings you into a vibratory rate that the person next to you isnt percieving at that moment. Or am I just saying what you did visavis?  I think just a minor shift in attention can cause a different vibratory rate. 


Natural Mystic, I have been noticing over the past couple months that for me anyway, things are manifesting much faster.  I try to be real careful that I dont dwell on things too long.  Not easy for me to do, hehe.   *Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it*

In man's analysis and understanding of himself, it is as well to know from whence he came as whither he is going.   Edgar Cayce

Beliefs are tools for social conditioning, rather than expressions of inner realization or inner truth.   unknown
Ad Verecundiam

Re: Elimination of Fear is the Beginning of Attention

the vibratory thing - how 'visible' you may seem depending on your frequency, to others ...

sure, that could be one explanation or phenomenon that happens ... usually - when i'm "on top of my game" (which i haven't been during the last 2-3 days), i feel more visible and invisible at the same time - depending on who's watching back - people with the same vibe - very easy to greet 'n' meet - it's mostly smiles, head nodds and hellos ...

when that state of attention is there, i tend to catch so many details - perception is definitely heightened - and it's people who probably have lots of things on their or maybe just something on their mind ("tick-tockers") that i notice not noticing things around them as much ...

about this personal incident i mentioned - i think it was perhaps really just my inattention (although it could have been other stuff as well, i suppose) - but if anyone was to ask my family about me - one thing they might say is that i sometimes don't have a good "attention span". well - at times, that's true -that's been the tendency more so in the past than now - but that kind of stuff still happens to me ... i use to smoke pot for years - i wonder if i've perma-fried my brain to some extent ... *sigh* *shrugh* p)


natural mystic - i agree with the last thing you said - attention and intuition go together methinks - but it's interesting in the way K talks about it - how if you try to attend - well - your very effort thwarts the whole thing ...

... checking out the mirror of relationship ...

Re: Elimination of Fear is the Beginning of Attention

Holding that non-thinking, non-labelling awareness (attention) is not an easy thing for me.  I've been practicing it since I read the concept in a self-help book over a decade ago.  One of the major steps I had to take was undoing the thought loops (programs) that ran through my head constantly.  This gave me more mental space to work with.

Another thing I did was practice with the most mundade of things.  For instance, walk to your kitchen and make a sandwich without thinking or labelling anything.  Instead, use only awareness.

Still another trick I've done is the 50% method.  Go make that sandwich at 50% your normal speed.  That includes each arm movement and footstep.  Catch and correct yourself if any movement goes normal speed.

The 50% method is profound (to me) in and of itself.  At 50% I notice the gravity, wind resistance, change in temperature, air flow, muscle contraction, etc.  Add in non-thinking/non-labelling and it's really an alien feeling of awareness.

Pouring a glass of water becomes a new experience.

See in 3d, mentally.  Normal awareness is a labelling of the surface world.  A 2-dimensional planar awareness.  Get a glass and pour some water.  But add the next dimension and get the essense back.  You feel the pull of gravity on the glass.  You feel the extra force as the billions of bounded hydrogen and oxygen atoms collide with a glass floor.  You feel the air being displaced from inside the glass.  And other nuances.  Do it without thinking and the awareness shift is rather pronounced.

The active non-thinking quiets the conscious mind so the subconscious can be felt.  The subconscious knowledge comes forth as just knowing.  The subconscious is still all about movement.  Movement of energy compared with the conscious's movement of matter.  Quiet the subconscious and you can tap the unconscious (I assume).

There does seem to be a few byproducts that come with the non-thinking/non-labelling essence-tial awareness.  For one, the ego doesn't do too well without the use of thoughts.  Another byproduct is the underlining joy of life seems to slip back through the muck of societal living that we allowed to cover our true natures.

Re: Elimination of Fear is the Beginning of Attention

Have you ever been driving and realized that you dont remember the last 5miles you just drove. Its like your body is on auto-pilot and your attention is shifted elsewhere.  I have actually been driving and felt like I was sitting above myself and I wasnt  feeling connected to my arms that were on the steering wheel.  Is that anything like you are talking about z3?

In man's analysis and understanding of himself, it is as well to know from whence he came as whither he is going.   Edgar Cayce

Beliefs are tools for social conditioning, rather than expressions of inner realization or inner truth.   unknown
Ad Verecundiam

Re: Elimination of Fear is the Beginning of Attention

these are a few more quotes i've gotten emailed to me since a couple of days ago - they relate to this topic:



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Awareness is that state of mind which observes something without any condemnation or acceptance, which merely faces the thing as it is. When you look at a flower nonbotanically, then you see the totality of the flower; but if your mind is completely taken up with the botanical knowledge of what the flower is, you are not totally looking at the flower. Though you may have knowledge of the flower, if that knowledge takes the whole ground of your mind, the whole field of your mind, then you are not looking totally at the flower.

So, to look at a fact is to be aware. In that awareness, there is no choice, no condemnation, no like or dislike. But most of us are incapable of doing this because traditionally, occupationally, in every way, we are not capable of facing the fact without the background. We have to be aware of the background. We have to be aware of our conditioning, and that conditioning shows itself when we observe a fact; and as you are concerned with the observation of the fact and not with the background, the background is pushed aside. When the main interest is to understand the fact only, and when you see that the background prevents you from understanding the fact, then the vital interest in the fact wipes away the background.

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Can humility be practiced? Surely, to be conscious that you are humble is not to be humble. You want to know that you have arrived. This indicates, does it not, that you are listening in order to achieve a particular state, a place where you will never be disturbed, where you will find everlasting happiness, permanent bliss. But as I said previously, there is no arriving, there is only the movement of learning–and that is the beauty of life. If you have arrived, there is nothing more. And all of you have arrived, or you want to arrive, not only in your business, but in everything you do; so you are dissatisfied, frustrated, miserable. Sirs, there is no place at which to arrive, there is just this movement of learning which becomes painful only when there is accumulation. A mind that listens with complete attention will never look for a result because it is constantly unfolding; like a river, it is always in movement. Such a mind is totally unconscious of its own activity, in the sense that there is no perpetuation of a self, of a "me," which is seeking to achieve an end.

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In awareness there is only the present–that is, being aware, you see the past process of influence which controls the present and modifies the future. Awareness is an integral process, not a process of division. For example, if I ask the question, “Do I believe in God?” –in the very process of asking, I can observe, if I am aware, what it is that is making me ask that question; if I am aware I can perceive what have been and what are the forces at work that are compelling me to ask that question. Then I am aware of various forms of fear–those of my ancestors who have created a certain idea of God and have handed it down to me, and combining their idea with my present reactions, I have modified or changed the concept of God. If I am aware, I perceive this entire process of the past, its effect in the present and in the future, integrally, as a whole.

If one is aware, one sees how through fear one's concept of God arose; or perhaps there was a person who had an original experience of reality or of God and communicated it to another who in his greediness made it his own, and gave impetus to the process of imitation. Awareness is the process of completeness, and introspection is incomplete. The result of introspection is morbid, painful, whereas awareness is enthusiasm and joy.

J. Krishnamurti

... checking out the mirror of relationship ...

10 (edited by z3n3rg 2006-06-16 08:35:42)

Re: Elimination of Fear is the Beginning of Attention

Treehugger:  I'm not sure.  That sounds like astrally slipping out of the body.  Or it could be observer awareness.  Or maybe it's just natural to you.  In the situation where I missed miles while driving I was most likely lost in thought.  I've never had a case of going from 'lost in thought' to non-labelling awareness without the intent to do so.

Re: Elimination of Fear is the Beginning of Attention

oceanchild wrote:

We have to be aware of our conditioning, and that conditioning shows itself when we observe a fact; and as you are concerned with the observation of the fact and not with the background, the background is pushed aside.

You want to know that you have arrived. This indicates, does it not, that you are listening in order to achieve a particular state, a place where you will never be disturbed, where you will find everlasting happiness, permanent bliss. But as I said previously, there is no arriving, there is only the movement of learning–and that is the beauty of life.---

In awareness there is only the present.

Those are the quotations I found most profound.  And this reminds me of an article I read posted by Marcus on in2world.net

http://in2worlds.net/two-worlds

It talks about how children are always in this state of awarness, and how slowly - by conditioning -  we loose that awareness and begin thinking in terms of PAST and FUTURE, and stop living in the now.  We develope the concept of "I" "Me", "Mine" and "Own/Possesion" instead of being in the NOW and accepting each fluid moment. 

So how do we become aware?  How do we come back to our childlike imagination?

Marcus "Two Worlds" wrote:

Maybe a kid can teach us as much as we can teach them. Maybe they can help us remember. And when that happens it’s pretty miraculous, because a whole new world opens up. You learn to see the world in two ways. In fact you realize it is far more than that – you realize there actually are two worlds! The adult world of past and future…of constant Mind activity, and the quite, silent world of Now where anything is possible.

Now Stop!

The mind goes pretty fast doesn’t it? When you stop, it’s almost like someone has finally shut-off that blumin’ great noise generator. That’s the key right there; the key that opens the door into the now. The door which will help us remember. When we finally go through that door, and open our eyes and look…we realize we hadn’t actually forgotten at all. It was there all along; just buried under all that useless hectic, pointless junk, which had been ingrained in us since forever.

We knew it when we were kids we could see it in all the adults around us. Our kids see it in us everyday. Take a step back, and learn by their example. And once you discover their world again – who knows what else is possible!

"Beyond the stars a new world awaits me now" - Wintersun

Re: Elimination of Fear is the Beginning of Attention

that's an interesting description you quoted from Marcus, Natural Mystic ... i guess as kids, we're also less conditioned and so when we're facing things - it's sort of like - a more pure way of looking at something in a sense - looking without that 'background knowledge' or bias that may be there as a result of conditioning ...

the other day i was riding my bike and passed a couple of gentlemen under a bridge at one point - immediately as i was passing them - i noticed something happened to myself on the inside - it may have been very faint, but i noticed myself kind of go into caution mode - sort of in a way saying to myself - watch out - some would say that's a natural reaction, but whatever it was - it was like - my own response - almost like i had my mind made up about these guys that they may be dangerous - that's actually sort of along the lines of what i was thinking/feeling --- i went a little ways further ahead and came turned back around 'cause the road was blocked, to pass the two gentlemen again - this time - i was just watching - and noticed there was nothing really for me to be cautious about - they were two dudes just chatting it up - seemed perfectly nice ...

for me - that was like an example of the 'background' coming up - the thing that made me go, watch out - and me paying more attention to the background than to the fact of what was there the first time around - then when i came by around again - i was just observing the gentlemen without the background - which is how i came to realize they were just ordinary dudes who happened to be having a conversation under this bridge - i noticed the clothes they were wearing - all the details were there the second time - not so the first time ...

i got this quote today - this is a good one to chew on:

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If awareness is practiced, made into a habit, then it becomes tedious and painful. Awareness cannot be disciplined. That which is practiced is no longer awareness, for in practice is implied the creation of habit, the exertion of effort and will. Effort is distortion. There is not only the awareness of the outer–of the flight of birds, of shadows, of the restless sea, the trees and the wind, the beggar and the luxurious cars that pass by–but also there is the awareness of the psychological process, the inward tension and conflict. You do not condemn a bird in flight; you observe it, you see the beauty of it. But, when you consider your own inward strife, you condemn it or justify it. You are incapable of observing this inward conflict without choice or justification.

To be aware of your thought and feeling without identification and denial is not tedious and painful, but in search of a result, an end to be gained, conflict is increased and the tedium of strife begins.

J. Krishnamurti

... checking out the mirror of relationship ...

Re: Elimination of Fear is the Beginning of Attention

If awareness is practiced, made into a habit, then it becomes tedious and painful. Awareness cannot be disciplined. That which is practiced is no longer awareness, for in practice is implied the creation of habit, the exertion of effort and will. Effort is distortion.

In a very real sense this is true.  However, it doesn't take into account the personality or the ego.  Yes, you gain the awareness without effort or practice.  But, to keep the awareness I, at least, had to get rid of the thought loops that played almost continuously.  I had to clear a path and prepare the ground so to speak.  'Practicing the awareness' was the intent and action of stopping the noise.  So in that sense, the effort or practice was not attached to the awareness but effort and practice were involved in the equation.

If others have the same sort of thought loops then I think this distinction is important.  Otherwise, those thought loops act as a magnet for the attention.  Only when I cleared the mental space of attention magnets was the awareness without effort or practice.

That's just my observations.  Has anyone else done this awareness thing?  How long can you stop thinking for?  If not, can someone else try it and report back.  I think it would be great to have more first hand observations on the usage of these types of teachings.

14 (edited by visavis 2006-06-18 14:15:08)

Re: Elimination of Fear is the Beginning of Attention

The effort-related statement seems off.  To grow in awareness, discipline(s) of some sort are necessary.  One can't just meander completely and end up a spiritual warrior.  Sorry, no free lunch in this regard!

However, I do believe that when one is intune with one's higher self, then the 'effort' that is required to be disciplined (ie meditating, for example) isn't really an *effort*, it's just something that flows out of you.  Perhaps it's semantics - perhaps this is something at least similar of what the author meant.

"The unknown does not incite fear, but dependence on the known does." - J. Krishnamurti

Re: Elimination of Fear is the Beginning of Attention

okay - some more quotes from K - i think it's worth careful consideration if you find it interested in any way/shape or form - and then i have some of my own comments ... z3, i htink it relates to what you were saying and asking ...

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What takes place when you give complete attention to the thing that we call violence?–violence being not only what separates human beings, through belief, conditioning, and so on, but also what comes into being when we are seeking personal security, or the security of individuality through a pattern of society. Can you look at that violence with complete attention? And when you look at that violence with complete attention, what takes place? When you give complete attention to anything–your learning of history or mathematics, looking at your wife or your husband–what takes place? I do not know if you have gone into it–probably most of us have never given complete attention to anything–but when you do, what takes place? Sirs, what is attention? Surely when you are giving complete attention there is care, and you cannot care if you have no affection, no love. And when you give attention in which there is love, is there violence? You are following? Formally I have condemned violence, I have escaped from it, I have justified it, I have said it is natural. All these things are inattention. But when I give attention to what I have called violence–and in that attention there is care, affection, love–where is there space for violence?

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In self-awareness there is no need for confession, for self-awareness creates the mirror in which all things are reflected without distortion. Every thought-feeling is thrown, as it were, on the screen of awareness to be observed, studied and understood; but this flow of understanding is blocked when there is condemnation or acceptance, judgment or identification. The more the screen is watched and understood–not as a duty or enforced practice, but because pain and sorrow have created the insatiable interest that brings its own discipline–the greater the intensity of awareness, and this in turn brings heightened understanding.

...You can follow a thing if it moves slowly; a rapid machine must be made to slow down if one is to study its movements. Similarly, thoughts-feelings can be studied and understood only if the mind is capable of proceeding slowly; but once it has awakened this capacity, it can move at a high velocity, which makes it extremely calm. When revolving at high speed the several blades of a fan appear to be a solid sheet of metal. Our difficulty is to make the mind revolve slowly so that each thought-feeling can be followed and understood. What is deeply and thoroughly understood will not repeat itself.

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in awareness there is no becoming, there is no end to be gained. There is silent observation without choice and condemnation, from which there comes understanding. In this process when thought and feeling unfold themselves, which is only possible when there is neither acquisition nor acceptance, then there comes an extensional awareness, all the hidden layers and their significance are revealed. This awareness reveals that creative emptiness which cannot be imagined or formulated. This extensional awareness and the creative emptiness are a total process and are not different stages. When you silently observe a problem without condemnation, justification, there comes passive awareness. In this passive awareness, the problem is understood and dissolved. In awareness there is heightened sensitivity, in which there is the highest form of negative thinking. When the mind is formulating, producing, there can be no creation. It is only when the mind is still and empty, when it is not creating a problem–in that alert passivity there is creation. Creation can only take place in negation, which is not the opposite of the positive. Being nothing is not the antithesis of being something. A problem comes into being only when there is a search for result. When the search for result ceases, then only is there no problem.


J. Krishnamurti

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z3: i wonder if it was awareness of the thoughtloops and an understanding of their affect(s) which is what got rid of them ?? is that at all a possiblity ? could it actually be the same thing you were saying - that you had to get rid of them -- the way you state it though implies 'effort' ... i think what K is asserting is that once you understand something by coming fully in contact with it - it 'naturally' will cease - at least that's what i get ...

in my own experience, not just thoughtloops - but 'actionloops' - the root of which is the thoughtloop, i guess - it was my awareness of what was going on - just seeing what was happening as a result - which is what stopped them - i guess i could also say there was an intent to stop it - but that intent wasn't formed by force - by will - it came as a result of me seeing what the thoughtloops and actionloops were doing - being in contact with all that was going on ... that's how i dropped a few bad habbits that had a very strong hold on me ... and it didn't really happen all at once either - but i found those loops getting less and less strength when i observed what was going on - eventually it got to a point where i could watch what was happening without taking action (i.e., giving into the urge - i.e., smoking) ... anyways - that's my experience with it - i'm just a regular kid but this stuff makes sense 'cause i have/i am put/putting myself to the test ... and i've slipped along the way many a time but always manage to get up (so far) tongue

visavis - when you say, to grow in awareness, discipline(s) are necessary - what is the cause of that discipline ? i mean what's the driving force behind it ? i think understanding the motive behind why i want to have awareness or anything is important - regardless of whatever that motive happens to be -- and what exactly do you mean by the actual word 'discipline' because people may have a different understanding of that word --- in those quotes  listed above - i think K touches on some of this  ...  again - to accept what's being said by K or anyone outright i think is foolish - so good to question and go into these things for oneself most definitely - and also - i think in some ways it's  a little rediculous of me to be putting up these quotes from K because a) i can't validate everything that he's saying - i guess i'm just putting it out there 'cause it challenges me and i want to hear what others think/feel - b) these are snippets from whole conversations/dialogues/stuff he wrote - so it would probably make more sense to look at the whole message if one was really interested

... checking out the mirror of relationship ...