181 Reply by Jen (edited by Jen 2005-10-24 23:36:21)

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Re: Everything You've Been Told About the "Grays" is Bunk

hi tenetnosce, thanks for your response.

tenetnosce wrote:

The piece that I'm not comfortable with is the idea that certain people have spiritual contracts, or karmic obligations, that result in abduction scenarios and there is really nothing they can do about it.  It's just the way it is.

In Visitors From Within, they say that this understanding (that we have made agreements for this) can be a liberating idea if we allow it to be, as it places us on an equal level with them so that we will no longer perceive ourselves as their victims. 

Well alright, I'm willing to have faith that more good will come out in the end.

Yes, that is my feeling, from what I have read and intuited.

What keeps nagging at the back of my mind is the idea that things don't have to be this way.  Moreover, they never did.

So we are the aliens.  They are within us, because everything exists within us.  My question is then why are there abductions?  Why doesn't Tom Gray ring my doorbell and say "What are you up to?  We've got this little experiment we want to run and we are looking for volunteers.  Wanna come along?"

Why the secrecy?  Why the control?  Why the fear?

That is our perception, our interpretation of what is happening.  As I quoted from the preface to Visitors From Within, UFO's and Visitors do not originate in our reality; therefore, they do not conform to the "laws" of our reality, including our conception of "agreements."  Thus, we need a new paradigm for understanding this phenomenon.

But to answer your question, the material indicates one of the purposes for the contact is to enable us to face and overcome our deepest fears.
This is in sync with what the Pleiadians say in Path of Empowerment--that the years leading up to 2012 are a time of cleaning and clearing out our fears, specifically our fears relating to taking our power.  Most people see the abduction process as one of being rendered powerless, but we never experience anything that is not reflective of something that is already within us.  So, rather than seeing this as a violation, we could look at it as an opportunity along those lines.

Aside from that, one reason the Zetas interact with us at night is that in that state our subconscious is wide open, unlike during the daytime, and we are manifesting more of our true selves.  The more we can allow ourselves to become comfortable with these realms of the subconscious, the less fear we will have around the Zetas.  "When you say you are afraid you will wake up and find them staring at you, you are really only saying that you are afraid of staring into your counterpart that exists in the darkness.  It always comes back to the self."

The book goes on to say:

From the point of view of a species looking at you from a bird's eye view, the human race right now is on the brink of an extremely powerful change--a change that will be more important than any change  you've made since you took the leap to Homo sapiens. It is that powerful. When a species is making a leap in evolution, the old part fears annihilation.  When it looks ahead, all it sees is darkness, because you haven't yet created the new species. So making that leap into the darkness is very frightening for many people.

tenetnosce wrote:

Moreover, why would I make an agreement with myself for things to be this way?  What would be my purpose in that?  And if I knew the purpose, isn't there another way for that purpose to be fulfilled?  Can't I just change the agreement?

Well, as I've said a couple of times in this thread, we do have the power to change or stop the abduction experience, if we wish, and there is a whole chapter in the book about this.  It says that if we do only one thing to empower ourselves during the abduction experience, then the experience itself must change.  We can proclaim that we are not available for the experience, we can put an intense protective electrical blue energy field around ourselves, or we can simply change our perception and ways of interacting with the Zetas.
Whatever means we choose, we will be taking charge of the situation,
which in itself will serve to defuse any fear or sense of violation.

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Re: Everything You've Been Told About the "Grays" is Bunk

Forgot to include this one, fits perfectly into our discussion:

CHANNELING, UFOS AND THE POSITIVE/NEGATIVE REALMS BEYOND THIS WORLD (parts 1 | 2| 3 )

...by Michael Topper (under the pseudonym Marshall Telemachus)

Summary: This text contains an introduction to the channeling phenomena, gives the reasons and motives behind higher density information sources, and analyzes and compares several wellknown channeled sources and their motivation. It gives a summary about them too, so you won't have to read some of them :-) An overview into "higher densities" and their structures is given, and this covers both positively and negatively polarized higher-dimensional beings. Whats more, the case of "Whitley Strieber" (an UFO abductee who got in touch with negatively oriented  beings) is carefully analyzed. Its implications about "KARMA", "psychic laws" ,"planetary quarantine" and "protection from evil for the good guys" are far-reaching. That's why you must not miss this one !!

What a great article! The original version with illustrations is also available as a PDF (1.93MB) - HERE

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

montalk's Website

183 Reply by impatiens

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Re: Everything You've Been Told About the "Grays" is Bunk

morningsun76 wrote:

Let's just hope the greys don't hire Johnny Cochran.  You'll be totally screwed then.

Ms, You do know that Johnnie Cochran is deceased?

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/03/29/cochran.obit/

Do agree with the rest of your post btw.

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Re: Everything You've Been Told About the "Grays" is Bunk

cosmic_luminessence wrote:

The point was that to achieve "space travel" etc., would require certain global conditions to prevail, such as Equality, Balance, Peace, Co-Operation, Understanding,...

morningsun76 wrote:

This statement is false on its face.   We humans have already achieved space travel in what I would suggest is the almost-total absence of the required conditions you mention.

Have we? Apparently a couple o' guys went to the moon a while back...apart from that "we" haven't been anywhere...

"The Earth is in exchange with higher levels of existence. For this an apparatus is
needed. Mankind is that apparatus. This exchange is not automatic; it requires work."
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Re: Everything You've Been Told About the "Grays" is Bunk

montalk wrote:

Unity is the only prerequisite for deep interstellar travel. Had the Nazis won WWII and dominated the globe, the sterilized remnants of mankind would be exploring other worlds and dimensions by now. I agree that the critical point of planetary destruction must be successfully passed through peace and unity -- but these emerge not just from complete equality/freedom/harmony, but also complete totalitarianism/programming/subjugation. Tyranny leads to peace when there are no resisters left to kill, no minds left to enslave, no lands left to conquer. It is the goal of any totalitarian force to create peace, unity, and order through conquest. If this is achieved globally, then the unified civilization may leave the planet to conquer other worlds.

Many think that the Nazis did win...but anyway,

The trouble with all that is: the violence and psychopathology required for total enslavement,  winning at all costs etc. does not produce "perfect" results without consequences which may then interfere with the "plan".  For example, in our world, the US uses depleted-uranium-armour-piercing -ballistics....great idea- they work fine-all opposition is crushed- but then there is the problem of all this poison out there...and it isn't just on the battlefield- it spreads into the food chain...we are a part of that chain...and so we ingest the particles of poison and get cancer etc.

In my country, a partner with the US in the Coalition of the Killing, the US and our army will use live depleted uranium ballistics in  training exercises...so the poison will be introduced into our OWN HOUSE, so to speak.  Are they really that stupid? Yes. Why? Because they are MAD psychopaths and it clouds their judgement to the point where they destroy their own home for the sake of destroying someone elses. 

This is just a small example of the total stupidity of those who wish to establish a Totalitarian Regime in our own world- multiply it by a million other stupid decisions they have and will make-and you get a dead garbage pit of a world....

Maybe I am wrong, but i don't see psychopathy as the winning formula for deep space/time/intra-dimensional/whatever  travel


montalk wrote:

Yes, there may be forces "up there" who are positive and have helped you out in life, assisting your spiritual growth in measured doses, but be careful not to credit the incorrect source. As I wrote in my research note, Wanderers (incarnates from higher realms) may come here with only a vague notion of their origin and a murky idea of who is responsible for reinforcing their spiritual integrity, and it's very easy for the deceptive groups to come in and falsely take credit.

The term and concept "WANDERERS" was first used by Williamson, was it not? He was a product of US NAVAL INTELLIGENCE...he worked with Fascists in the US alligned with Hitler prior to world war Two, then with Adamski (another usintel assett)....what is" real" and what is based on the writings of others based on the writings of other based on the writings of others...etc., etc., etc.  So much of ALL of it emanates from the very psychopaths that want to rule this world...then taken up by others in the chain of feeding....passed down through the line...and becoming a "faith" decades later.

Hitler had the same sort of ideas- this world is in a spiritual mess populated by non-humans controlled by a Higher Evil Being who were in the process of enslaving the real humans. Hitler was "sent from above" to save the earth- he was an incarnation of a higher being...this is Gnosticism- which was also a perversion and it has become a popular doctrine these days---evil must be personified, a conscious entity: it has to be "out there" instead of inside us.

So we have been given the Greys and Aliens to hate- to blame for everything (unless you don't subscribe in which case you have terrorists, or Israel or...).  Back to the middle ages and Demons and witches...all VERY VERY real to those people back then...

If we were faced with a psychic mirror that reflected all the dirt within us- the hidden just-below-the-surface and the deeper unconscious stuff what do you think we would see?Angels or Demons?

If we  were faced with a "magic-mirror" and saw only what we wanted to see about ourselves what would we see? Angels? Special Incarnates? or Demons?

Day by day here in my cosy part of the world my democratic feedoms are being taken away bit by bit (and some big chunks these days)...i can see who is doing it too- Bush Blair Howard etc etc, i can also see what sorts of "crazies" these guys are (Bohemian Grove etc etc etc)(tho' the total truth of their madnesses are hidden somewhat- i mean i don't know whether they drink bats blood or human blood, i don't know whether they pray to Satan or Moloch or...).

It is not the Greys who are doing this, it is the PEOPLE in Control- and they are apparently voted in by all the other people (in those countries)....

A lot of people have surmised that the "threat from space" was an invention by the Powers that Rule us....

Yes I know that there are many who have had experiences with abductions....but here is something to consider....

Have you heard of the Buff Ledge Incident?  It has two people claiming abductions- the investigation has been called by some as one of the best and most convincing....and yet I have "evidence" that it never happened.  Now either the abductees are simply lying or they actually believe and have "recalled "  it.....if they are lying it shows the absolute idiocy of the investigator (who was associated with the Hills case also), if they are not lying then it shows how certain triggers (the evidence i have shows[photos] what really occurred at the Buff Ledge Camp-and something DID happen there to be sure, though it had nothing to do with real UFO's or ET's) can create an abduction fantasy in the minds of a person even under hynosis.
__________________________________________________________

This is how i feel today...tomorrow i might want to "see" something else.

"The Earth is in exchange with higher levels of existence. For this an apparatus is
needed. Mankind is that apparatus. This exchange is not automatic; it requires work."

186 Reply by wandering1 (edited by wandering1 2005-10-27 01:39:35)

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Re: Everything You've Been Told About the "Grays" is Bunk

cosmic_luminessence wrote:

So we have been given the Greys and Aliens to hate- to blame for everything

It seems that you see freedoms being reduced in some ways and you want to suggest to people what may actually be happening.

It seems that you are suggesting that the Greys and other aliens are made up - they are like a trick which has been developed by cunning humans in order to further erode freedoms.

Whether they are real or not, they may be used in that way at some point.

cosmic_luminessence wrote:

It is not the Greys who are doing this, it is the PEOPLE in Control

or at least entities that look like people.  I know it sounds far out, but I think the possibility exists that technology has been developed to make robotoids or biological "simulations" of people that are not "regular" people as that term is generally used.

But yes, mostly it is us people here and how are we going to live and how are we going to govern ourselves and let ourselves be governed?

I think those are key questions.

cosmic_luminessence wrote:

and something DID happen there to be sure, though it had nothing to do with real UFO's or ET's) can create an abduction fantasy in the minds of a person even under hypnosis.

I agree that it is possible to implant false memories.  Still, I think that hypnosis can elicit data and I think it is helpful to consider all the data that is available.

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Re: Everything You've Been Told About the "Grays" is Bunk

wandering1 wrote:

or at least entities that look like people. I know it sounds far out, but I think the possibility exists that technology has been developed to make robotoids or biological "simulations" of people that are not "regular" people as that term is generally used.

Entities that look like people would not have to be robotoids or biological simulations.  They could be aliens who look like us.  In fact, I am personally convinced that this is the case, and that these entities are manipulating certain humans on this planet to do certain things.   We just can't tell the difference between them and "normal" humans, if there even is such a thing.

188 Reply by wandering1 (edited by wandering1 2005-10-27 02:05:51)

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Re: Everything You've Been Told About the "Grays" is Bunk

morningsun76 wrote:
wandering1 wrote:

or at least entities that look like people. I know it sounds far out, but I think the possibility exists that technology has been developed to make robotoids or biological "simulations" of people that are not "regular" people as that term is generally used.

Entities that look like people would not have to be robotoids or biological simulations.  They could be aliens who look like us.  In fact, I am personally convinced that this is the case, and that these entities are manipulating certain humans on this planet to do certain things.   We just can't tell the difference between them and "normal" humans, if there even is such a thing.

Oh, yes good point. 

Plus I think that all of us "regular" people are susceptible to manipulation (influence?  suggestion?) to some extent.  Yes, we have the free will, but I think that there are plenty of things that interact with our free will.

Picture the little angel on one shoulder and the little devil on the other - plus the "gray" area in between.  I imagine that there are all sorts of waves and forces and vibrations that impinge upon us.

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Re: Everything You've Been Told About the "Grays" is Bunk

wandering1 wrote:

Plus I think that all of us "regular" people are susceptible to manipulation (influence?  suggestion?) to some extent.  Yes, we have the free will, but I think that there are plenty of things that interact with our free will.

Picture the little angel on one shoulder and the little devil on the other - plus the "gray" area in between.  I imagine that there are all sorts of waves and forces and vibrations that impinge upon us.

I'm in full agreement.  That's why the concept of staying fully conscious and aware as much as possible is important .. to make decisions while having an in-tune, connected state of mind rather than just reacting based on our conditioned responses.  Otherwise you could be talking to a god and never realize it!  smile  Like most people probably do on a daily basis, I suspect.

190 Reply by cosmic_luminessence (edited by cosmic_luminessence 2005-10-27 06:03:45)

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Re: Everything You've Been Told About the "Grays" is Bunk

cosmic_luminessence wrote:

So we have been given the Greys and Aliens to hate- to blame for everything

wandering1 wrote:

It seems that you see freedoms being reduced in some ways and you want to suggest to people what may actually be happening.

What happened was that bombs went off and then a politician got up and said we need new laws  to protect us from more bombs  and then they were passed (patriot act in us, anti-terrorism laws here and in UK)


wandering1 wrote:

It seems that you are suggesting that the Greys and other aliens are made up - they are like a trick which has been developed by cunning humans in order to further erode freedoms.

It is called LYING, being OPPORTUNISTIC- playing on peoples fears (founded or unfounded) to achieve an AGENDA which was there before the bombs, or the aliens for example.  Also, it as an age old ploy to blow someone up, then blame someone else gaining acceptance for military action against the "framed someone else"...

and...you bet your arse that i believe that there is a department in the depths of US intelligence that churns out "stories" concerning "brain sucking aliens", and also "aliens are good" stories too.  Just in case there are Aliens so that the US etc., can manipulate us the way they want.


cosmic_luminessence wrote:

It is not the Greys who are doing this, it is the PEOPLE in Control

wandering1 wrote:

or at least entities that look like people.  I know it sounds far out, but I think the possibility exists that technology has been developed to make robotoids or biological "simulations" of people that are not "regular" people as that term is generally used.

why create another convoluted layer to explain what is easily explained (ockhams razor)-power currupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, people are liars and psychopaths and those types generally have the requirements to "ascend" the ladder of political power because they are ruthless.  New research has shown that LIARS have more white matter in their brains than grey matter...it's just genetic...good liars "ascend" and breed and that's why we have these "dynasties" like the Bush family and all the rest...

wandering1 wrote:

But yes, mostly it is us people here and how are we going to live and how are we going to govern ourselves and let ourselves be governed?

I think those are key questions.

We should judge "leaders" by their "level of being" rather than by their wealth or connections or ability to smile as they kill etc., but to be able to judge beingness we would have to be different beings ourselves.  I think we took a wrong turn a long long time ago and it is impossible to go back.  So my "calming story" for myself is that earth is a prison- i must have gone through too many red lights somewhere previous and so i am here to learn to "love my enemy" (and stop going through red lights smile

mind you, the establishment of small-intelligent-mobile-groupings of people who move "through" or "hide from" all the manipulations and so on sounds like a good idea.

cosmic_luminessence wrote:

and something DID happen there to be sure, though it had nothing to do with real UFO's or ET's) can create an abduction fantasy in the minds of a person even under hypnosis.

wandering1 wrote:

I agree that it is possible to implant false memories.  Still, I think that hypnosis can elicit data and I think it is helpful to consider all the data that is available.

In the case i mentioned the "memories" would not have been implanted deliberately. 

Hypnosis in the "right hands" is an amazing phenomenon....but have a look at who is hypnotising abductees etc....it is interesting to note that the Hills "hypnotist" regarded what they underwent as projected "fantasy"...oh how times have changed!  Now it is the opposite- if you don't recall an abduction  then your experiences are disregarded...

ps-U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission website has gone down....bravo technology..oh! this is why-

(26 Oct) The U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission yesterday temporarily closed access to its database of regulatory and technical documents. Documents in the Agency Documents Access and Management System (ADAMS) are under review because of security concerns. "The decision was made after The Patriot-News reported that detailed information about the amount and location of small amounts of nuclear materials was available on the NRC's Web site. Those documents included floor plans of buildings at universities and hospitals showing where materials were stored."

Wow! Who needs enemies with friends like that!

"The Earth is in exchange with higher levels of existence. For this an apparatus is
needed. Mankind is that apparatus. This exchange is not automatic; it requires work."

191 Reply by wandering1 (edited by wandering1 2005-10-27 11:28:27)

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Re: Everything You've Been Told About the "Grays" is Bunk

Well cosmic_luminessence, I do agree that deception and ploys are part of the tactics in the struggle for power.

This was started as a thread about the "Gray" aliens, and you seem to be very convinced they they do not exist.   Ditto for the human simulations.  Certainly you are not alone in that many people think that way.

Given that each person has a somewhat limited range of experience, I wonder how we can be so sure about things that fall beyond that range of experience?  Perhaps that's where intuition comes in about what "feels" right.

When considering things that fall outside my direct experience, I aim to be open to possibilities, while at the same time retaining a degree of skepticism.

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Re: Everything You've Been Told About the "Grays" is Bunk

wandering1 wrote:

This was started as a thread about the "Gray" aliens,

it started "Everything You've Been Told About the "Grays" is Bunk"- but really was "everything you have been told about the greys is true"

wandering1 wrote:

and you seem to be very convinced they they do not exist.   Ditto for the human simulations.  Certainly you are not alone in that many people think that way.

I'm not even sure that I exist. 


wandering1 wrote:

Given that each person has a somewhat limited range of experience, I wonder how we can be so sure about things that fall beyond that range of experience?

WE CAN'T- we can't even be sure of things that fall within our experience.  That's the Human CON-dition, isn't it?


wandering1 wrote:

Perhaps that's where intuition comes in about what "feels" right..

Why is it that some think that their "feel-ings" are any more reliable than their "emotions" or their "intellect"-- some "feel right" when they are bashing someone, some "feel right" when they are on crack, some "feel right" when they are deploying troops to massacre children etc....

I would suggest that everyone acts on their "feel-ings" 100% of the time.  SO what. hmm


wandering1 wrote:

When considering things that fall outside my direct experience, I aim to be open to possibilities, while at the same time retaining a degree of skepticism.

A good attitude.   Tho' what usually happens is that we attatch to the latest "possibility" that has created a "response" within us, until another external creates another response.

I am skeptical of everything including myself, my feelings, my thoughts, my emotions, my recollections, my experiences.....I don't know whether that is good or bad or psychopathic.

I am skeptical of my skepticism too yikes

"The Earth is in exchange with higher levels of existence. For this an apparatus is
needed. Mankind is that apparatus. This exchange is not automatic; it requires work."

193 Reply by Jen

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Re: Everything You've Been Told About the "Grays" is Bunk

cosmic_luminessence wrote:

I am skeptical of everything including myself, my feelings, my thoughts, my emotions, my recollections, my experiences.....I don't know whether that is good or bad or psychopathic.

I am skeptical of my skepticism too yikes

You may enjoy this page, I did: http://www.victorzammit.com/skeptics/winston.html

cool

194 Reply by montalk (edited by montalk 2005-10-27 20:57:04)

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Re: Everything You've Been Told About the "Grays" is Bunk

Great link, Jen. 

A quote in the conclusion summed it up well:

"Doubt everything or believe everything: these are two equally convenient strategies. With either we dispense with the need for reflection." - Henri Poincare

A debate without reflection is as meaningful as dogs barking at each other, or makes as much progress as someone trying to reason with a barking dog. The question to ask is, what do you get out of trying to debate someone who is unwilling to reflect, do you seriously think they are capable of changing their minds based on anything you have to say? If they acknowledge your words only enough to give a glib response dressed up in arrogance and complexity to sound convincing despite its illogic, then for every logical statement you make they have any number of irrational ways to deflect it.

Debates are not always won through logic...sometimes they are won by default if the opponent can be drained or frustrated into quitting. All it takes is expending less energy to provoke a response than it takes the opponent to compose a response. Because deceptive fallacies are easier to create than unravel, it forms the perfect tactic for engaging and draining those who strive for truth and reason.

Debates get sticky when one or both parties are unaware that they are acting on false assumptions,  employing irrational tactics, defining a word differently than the other side, or failing strike the issue at its root. Sometimes debaters do not have equal breadth of perception or equal ranges of experience but then expect logic alone to somehow make the other side acquiesce -- impossible! Some of these differences can be corrected through discussion, but other things like perception, experience, and programmed belief cannot be changed by anyone other than the person in question. If one or both are currently unwilling or unable to do that, then the debate cannot reach a full and final conclusion. At most, one may give a closing argument and then simply walk away.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

montalk's Website

195 Reply by wandering1 (edited by wandering1 2005-10-27 21:17:20)

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Re: Everything You've Been Told About the "Grays" is Bunk

"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain