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Noble Realms → Conspiracy → School
whywhywhy wrote:
Unfortunately, the jobs the majority are performing are in the field of services. We are losing our technical edge/base to students from other countries that come to the US to get a a technical degree on engineering/Physics/etc....
You're right. Didn't think of that.
and I simply wouldn’t have gotten hired without a diploma even though I was answering phones and fetching coffee.....
I wrote about this ridiculous phenomenon in my latest article, "Working for the Puppet People..." found here at Montalk. I don't have time to post much right now, but it makes me so fricking mad when I think about these dumbass coffee fetching jobs that employers think require a fricking college diploma. It's stupid. [b]You don't need a college diploma to answer a phone or fetch coffee.[b] Which leads to...
I think some employers use the diploma as a filter. They figure graduates exhibit the ability to *finish* the job. The diploma becomes less about what the person learned in school, and more to do with the type of person an employer fancies they’re hiring. The crazy thing is this…. if one can find a way *in* (to particular field of work) without a diploma…. that first year of on-the-job work experience is BETTER than a diploma. I have had friends who’ve done just that, and in the end, their lack of degree was irrelevant. So, in essence, college grads pay 100K just to walk through the door. One helluva initiation fee!
Well, sure, that sounds like a good theory for why they look for a diploma for a coffee fetching phone job, but in reality, there's something more going on. I think that theory is naive. Nothing personal to you, but I see sinister conspiracies under every rock and around every corner, so, with my theories, always "consider the source." 
haha And I do see a conspiracy here. Why? Because in years past, this was NOT the case. ****Secretarial jobs were for girls who did not go to college.**** That was the POINT of them. Girls who didn't go to school but yet didn't have a husband to support them went off to become secretaries. That's the way it was. So why are they now requiring college to fetch coffee and answer a phone?? Think about that one for a bit. I have my sinister theories, that's for sure! 
I don't have time to post more, I've gotta run because it's after 5, so, bye for now! 
Well, sure, that sounds like a good theory for why they look for a diploma for a coffee fetching phone job, but in reality, there's something more going on.
Lyra,
My secreatry does not have a degree and she does not fetch coffee but I do get your point. Most of my employees are highly technical and yet only one has an engineering degree. To me as long as you have the knowledge the diploma is just mere protocol I can do without (although other employers do not think the same way). These employees got their degrees/diplomas from the University of Life/Experience. I would not trade it for anything. They cover my butt every freaking day!
Lyra wrote:
Well, sure, that sounds like a good theory for why they look for a diploma for a coffee fetching phone job, but in reality, there's something more going on. I think that theory is naive. Nothing personal to you, but I see sinister conspiracies under every rock and around every corner, so, with my theories, always "consider the source." haha And I do see a conspiracy here. Why? Because in years past, this was NOT the case. ****Secretarial jobs were for girls who did not go to college.**** That was the POINT of them. Girls who didn't go to school but yet didn't have a husband to support them went off to become secretaries. That's the way it was. So why are they now requiring college to fetch coffee and answer a phone?? Think about that one for a bit. I have my sinister theories, that's for sure!
Bring on the sinister conspiracy theories I'm intrigued!!
Let me quickly qualify by saying that I think there are two types of admin asst jobs (I consider myself an expert as I've temped for what seems like a bijillioin offices.) The first is a dead-end secretarial position wherein there is no guaranteed opportunity to "move up." The second has potential for promotion, rung #1 on the ladder. In regard to the entry level position for which I was hired, there was huge potential for promotion, and since I was trying to break into a new field, I took it. In the end, I cashed in on my promo, (collected my chops) and blew that taco stand to go do my own thing.
BTW, I was answering phones and fetching coffee for FOUR high-powered females. 
whywhywhy wrote:
To me as long as you have the knowledge the diploma is just mere protocol I can do without (although other employers do not think the same way). These employees got their degrees/diplomas from the University of Life/Experience. I would not trade it for anything. They cover my butt every freaking day!
My partner has the same philosophy. He has to hire lots of people and doesn't give a fig if they went to college, he's all about Job/Life experience. In fact, he says that he hires "attitude" and that in order to have attitude, you need to have opinions... in order to have solid opinions you need to know your sh*t... and that people who have their MBA are not as valuable/useful to him as people who've worked and lived it.
My partner has the same philosophy. He has to hire lots of people and doesn't give a fig if they went to college, he's all about Job/Life experience. In fact, he says that he hires "attitude" and that in order to have attitude, you need to have opinions... in order to have solid opinions you need to know your sh*t... and that people who have their MBA are not as valuable/useful to him as people who've worked and lived it.
AMEN!
If a job requires skills that can only be obtained from training in schools, then sure, a diploma is justifiable.
But for most modern entry level administrative assistant jobs, a college degree is absolutely NOT necessary. What is necessary are: Typing. (a skill that can be acquired in junior high / high school) computer savvy, (most young people have that, as they are born in a generation where personal computers are the norm everywhere you go) nice attire, good personlity, people skills - none of which are related to college - and the ability to learn and retain information. Being fast, organized and efficient are also helpful. I have those traits, but no college degree, and so far I've managed to carve out a nice niche for myself in the world as an admin girl. I can type, handle a busy switchboard, can multi-task with ease, have a customer service background, I'm organized and actually ENJOY alphatbeting and organizing everything I'm fast, efficient, on the ball, etc. You give me work to do, and it WILL get done, and faster and better than anybody else would have done it. College does not create thoes traits. Life experience, job experience does. Your ingrained personality / intelligence does. So, I will not buy into the college degree for an admin job malarky. In fact, I will pose the argument that college actually HINDERS people in many ways. While everybody else was locked up in school, slaving away, miserable, putting themselves into debt, I was living life, taking roadtrips, and gaining hands on life / job experience. Go figure!
Let me quickly qualify by saying that I think there are two types of admin asst jobs (I consider myself an expert as I've temped for what seems like a bijillioin offices.) The first is a dead-end secretarial position wherein there is no guaranteed opportunity to "move up." The second has potential for promotion, rung #1 on the ladder. In regard to the entry level position for which I was hired, there was huge potential for promotion, and since I was trying to break into a new field, I took it. In the end, I cashed in on my promo, (collected my chops) and blew that taco stand to go do my own thing.
BTW, I was answering phones and fetching coffee for FOUR high-powered females.
Okay, well, I guess I'm confused. I'm not sure what you're qualifying here, or what the point is.....
Bring on the sinister conspiracy theories I'm intrigued!!
Well, like I mentioned it's all in that article, "Working for the Puppet People..." here at the montalk site. It's a huge article jam packed with commentary and personal experience about what's going on in the modern workforce right now, including the college stuff......
Once & Future wrote:
Let me quickly qualify by saying that I think there are two types of admin asst jobs (I consider myself an expert as I've temped for what seems like a bijillioin offices.) The first is a dead-end secretarial position wherein there is no guaranteed opportunity to "move up." The second has potential for promotion, rung #1 on the ladder. In regard to the entry level position for which I was hired, there was huge potential for promotion, and since I was trying to break into a new field, I took it. In the end, I cashed in on my promo, (collected my chops) and blew that taco stand to go do my own thing.
BTW, I was answering phones and fetching coffee for FOUR high-powered females.
Okay, well, I guess I'm confused. I'm not sure what you're qualifying here, or what the point is.....
I can see why you're confused. What I was trying to throw into the mix.... is that there are entry level admin jobs that have the potential for promotion upward... and then there are straight-forward secretarial jobs without a "career track." I've had both, and wanted to differentiate between those two types of jobs because of what you say here:
****Secretarial jobs were for girls who did not go to college.**** That was the POINT of them. Girls who didn't go to school but yet didn't have a husband to support them went off to become secretaries. That's the way it was. So why are they now requiring college to fetch coffee and answer a phone??
This got me thinking. In my case, I had to start at the bottom because I didn't have 'field experience'... and the diploma acted as entree. They required a degree because they wanted somebody "promotable." I still stand by my assertion that field experience coupled with the right attitude/aptitude is more valuable than a diploma... and why corporations won't follow that line of logic probably has to do with points in your article. After reading most of your piece, I better understand where you're coming from. For a moment, I was misinterpreting that your theory involved the subjugation of women 
Lyra wrote:
So, I will not buy into the college degree for an admin job malarky. In fact, I will pose the argument that college actually HINDERS people in many ways. While everybody else was locked up in school, slaving away, miserable, putting themselves into debt, I was living life, taking roadtrips, and gaining hands on life / job experience. Go figure!
I agree that a college degree for admin job is unnecessary, and completely ridiculous if the person as admin experience.
As far as posing the argument that college HINDERS people.... hmmmmm?????? Your article makes some provocative points about how college, among other things, helps to create the puppet/drone. I have to think further on this. College was a positive experience for me. Though, I would agree that college is not for everyone. I know plenty of people who dropped out, or didn't go period, and in the end, it was the best choice for them... and didn't "hold them back" any more than they let it.
I'm certainly horrified by the debt incurred by students these days... an insidious trap.
After reading most of your piece, I better understand where you're coming from. For a moment, I was misinterpreting that your theory involved the subjugation of women
Na. I'm not a feminist. That's such a simplistic mainstream "normal" conspiracy theory...and actually not even a true conspiracy in my book. My theories always go so deep into the far fringes as to be considered slightly "crazy." You'll never hear me rant about the subjugation of women. Not my thing. There are bigger fish to fry, more serious, fringe topics to be covered. Besides, I have controversial views in that regard, believe it or not. I feel that society has been turned upside down, and not in a good way, because women have abandoned their families in favor of working outside the home, as well as there being a disconcerting trend in (usually urban) America for women to be man haters, mocking men and thinking of them as redundant and useless. But again, that's more of a mainstream conspiracy, and ultimately, just a huge distraction tactic to keep people squabbling, so I digress.....!!
As far as posing the argument that college HINDERS people.... hmmmmm??????....College was a positive experience for me. Though, I would agree that college is not for everyone. I know plenty of people who dropped out, or didn't go period, and in the end, it was the best choice for them... and didn't "hold them back" any more than they let it.
Well if you look closely at what I said, you'll see that I didn't say it hinders everybody, all the time, in all circumstances. But I do believe it can be a hindrance for many. When people are investing all their time, money, energy and happiness for 4 - 6 years to get a degree, only to find themselves working at an entry-level position not related to their major once they graduate, then it seems to me in those particular cases, the time and money and debt is more of a hindrance than benefit.
And keep in mind that just because I feel that college can be a hindrance for many, and it definitely wasn't right for me, doesn't mean I'm looking down on or judging others for doing it. A lot of people think that just because I criticize something then I mean it across the board, 100% of the time in all caes, and, I'm judging the people who partake in it. Personally, it doesn't bother me if people go to college - that's their life. I'm living my life, and have my own thing to worrry about. We all have to do what feels right to us. The point of my article was to make people aware though that there are strange and questionable things currently happening in our modern work place, of which a small part includes many employers requiring degrees for mindless work.
I'm certainly horrified by the debt incurred by students these days... an insidious trap.
Indeed! A good point.....
PS
btw....It's been something like 4 days now.....and I've managed to resist the click! Pretty cool....
High school diplomas, college degrees, masters degrees, and other types of degrees and certifications can be useful but they are not necessary.
I think opportunity exists even when circumstances may appear bleak.
Opportunities can be created. Openness to possibilities may be helpful.
I'm amazed by the access to information available on the Internet. Plus there are free connections in some computer stores, in some libraries, at some schools . . .
Lyra wrote:
Na. I'm not a feminist. That's such a simplistic mainstream "normal" conspiracy theory...and actually not even a true conspiracy in my book. My theories always go so deep into the far fringes as to be considered slightly "crazy." You'll never hear me rant about the subjugation of women. Not my thing. There are bigger fish to fry, more serious, fringe topics to be covered. Besides, I have controversial views in that regard, believe it or not.
I'm not a quote-unquote feminist either, although, I have great respect for women's suffrage and a few other movements.... but I will take your advice and not get caught in that digression
Lyra wrote:
And keep in mind that just because I feel that college can be a hindrance for many, and it definitely wasn't right for me, doesn't mean I'm looking down on or judging others for doing it. A lot of people think that just because I criticize something then I mean it across the board, 100% of the time in all caes, and, I'm judging the people who partake in it.
Nope, I totally don't get the vibe that you're judging others, just talking about what's been right for you and as you say... making people aware there are "strange and questionable things" happening in the work place. In fact, one of the things that I got from your article was that if one can get a degree, make that degree work for them... AND not get sucked into the puppet show, than you're in good shape.
I'm not convinced... yet... that college hinders the majority. Although, I may just change my tune! Presently, I think that college debt is the only major hindering factor. Note, I say MAJOR, because I think for the average person, college may do more good than harm. A degree is useful in that it makes life a lot easier. HOWEVER, if you are a focused, aggressive, "self-starter" who really knows how to go out there and make it happen, it's unnecessary. Super smart people don't need to go to college... but the average Joe, in this world, at this time, needs a head start, IMO.
At the same time, I'm hearing what you have to say about the "college requirement" as part of a larger "agenda".............
Energy wrote:
Nowadays, the rumor mill says ya 'need' a "master's."
.............. and it's only escalating!
P.S. I've resisted the click as well. << High 5 >> We must do something to reward ourselves!
P.S.S. Next thing I'm giving up cold turkey... SUGAR. 
It's my last vice, and i want to boost the ole immune system. Is life without chocolate worth living? Do you have any juicy conspiracy theories about chocolate??:D Help me, Lyra.
I didn't get a whole lot of value out of my classes, but I did learn some valuable lessons by going to college. Times have changed so much since I was a freshman at the University of Michigan in 1973, so the benefits I found don't necessarily apply anymore.
One of the first things I did when I got to Ann Arbor was participate in a demonstration at the administration building. I don't even remember what it was about for sure, but I think it was a protest against a tuition hike or something like that. Just being part of a huge demonstration like that gave me a feeling of empowerment.
I really didn't start to question the government that much until the following year when I saw a flier posted on campus advertising a lecture on the JFK assassination. I had never even heard there was a controversy about it, so it kind of piqued my curiosity. The whole idea of going to college was to have an open mind and learn new things, as far as I was concerned. So I went, and it changed my life.
After seeing the Zapruder film, I realized the Warren Report had to be wrong, so I started doing research on it and writing papers for my history class. When you discover your entire world is constructed with a house of cards at its foundation, it opens up a lot of new possibilities. One thing led to another, and that's how I ended up here.
It was an exciting time when I was in college, because Watergate started the ball rolling, and then we had Congress investigating abuses by the FBI and the CIA against the American people. There was real optimism about change. Journalism schools were filling up with idealistic young people who wanted to make a difference in the world.
I was one of those naive idealists. I knew I would never get rich in journalism, but I didn't care. I wanted to follow in the tradition of Woodward and Bernstein and see what I could do to clean up all the corruption in government. Unfortunately, I learned that far from being agents for change, mainstream daily newspapers are part of the power structure. Nowadays, they are all crawling with CIA operatives, so not only are you restricted from pursuing certain stories, your life could be endangered. Just ask Garb Webb, who committed "suicide" after he exposed drug running by the CIA in the San Jose Mercury News.
I myself have been under surveillance my entire adult life as a result of pursuing the truth, and it ruined my career. I cannot emphasize enough how disillusioned I am with the press. And academia is no different. My history professor all but forbade me to write a paper about the JFK assassination, but I did it anyway. Later on, I discovered he had an intelligence background during World War II, and I'm pretty sure he was an FBI informant. College campuses were crawling with them in the ' 70s, and they probably are even more today. That's how I ended up being targeted.
Another good thing about going to college was having access to all kinds of independent films on campus. You could catch a film every night of the week for a dollar or two. But almost all the interesting ideas I was exposed to were outside the classroom, not in it.
I did some of my undergrad at Kent State which still had a strong counter-culture vibe about it in the 80s. I mostly took English, philosophy and sociology type courses including some classes in what was called Peace/Conflict Studies. Very interesting stuff.
Ideas I was exposed to included dissecting things like duality, the meaning of reality, the causes of conflict and possible solutions for peace, social and educational systems, art and asthetics, etc. I found it all very expansive at the time.
In one of my soc classes we discussed things like credentialism, and how it was developed to keep other people out of various job markets. (Sound familiar?) In another we studied very radical and creative educational models.
I eventually left Kent and went to massage school where we were allowed to lounge on the floor with pillows during lectures, drink water and eat our snacks as we pleased. We began each class with a guided meditation and recieved lots of massage and bodywork during the day. It's really the only way to learn.
palomine wrote:
Another good thing about going to college was having access to all kinds of independent films on campus. You could catch a film every night of the week for a dollar or two. But almost all the interesting ideas I was exposed to were outside the classroom, not in it.
Outside the classroom was were I was exposed to most great ideas too... four years of conversation (and heated debate) was my primary education.
And, the access to independent cinema was one of my favorite aspects of college life too. That's were I was introduced to and developed my passion for indie film, which is what I went on to do in later years... although, I wanted to be a journalist like you. I have so much respect for investigative journalists. I've worked with several investigative documentary filmmakers... the stories I could tell about the harrassment these guys endured would curl your toes. My hat is off to you, palomine. Hard-core investigative journalism is about as heroic as it gets these days. A dying breed simply because it's so dangerous.
Mystical Girl wrote:
Ideas I was exposed to included dissecting things like duality, the meaning of reality, the causes of conflict and possible solutions for peace, social and educational systems, art and asthetics, etc. I found it all very expansive at the time.
In one of my soc classes we discussed things like credentialism, and how it was developed to keep other people out of various job markets. (Sound familiar?) In another we studied very radical and creative educational models.
Quite simply, my anthropology and sociology courses changed my life. I remember reading Jonathan Kozol's (sp?) Savage Inequalities, which blew my mind. My anthropology courses enlightened me on the evil that is Disney , and about the corporatization of America... about the objectification of "the other"... we also studied alternative education models. I was exposed to ideas and concepts that I never would have sought on my own. i certainly wasn’t exposed to this stuff in my poor inner city public high school which was as textbook formulaic as it gets. Most of my friends never even graduated, never mind matriculated, they dropped out from sheer boredom. My school didn't even have windows. Talk about caged minds...
Thanks, Once & Future. Yes, it's a very hard life, and nobody tells you about the darker side of things in journalism school. It was a very rude awakening to discover the dangers involved in making waves. Gary Webb was the best of all, and look what happened to him. I like Greg Palast, too. He has done a lot to expose election fraud, but he had to move to London to do it. And Seymour Hersh has done some great work, such as exposing the My Lai massacre.
I hate school, especially the K-12 years. I didn't really learn much.
I had a "music" class in elementary school. This "music class" consisted of the the teacher showing the same sight reading tape every day, while the teacher sat at her desk and did who knows what. I had music appreciation in high school. It really sucked. On the first day of class, the instructor stood in front of everyone and pointed to a display of trophies. He said, "See those trophies? They are for choir. I was hired to win those, not teach this class to you idiots. I don't intend to teach this class, either." He meant it. He would sit in his office all day on the phone, while giving us an assignment which consisted of copying the text in the book.
Then there was college Art Appreciation. The professor was one of those crazy people who really likes abstract expressionist art, and would lecture us on why peeing in a cup or wadding up a sheet of paper is "art." I asked him what he thought about a certain "artist" who tortured animals, mutiliated their bodies, and displayed the results as "art." He insisted that it was art, and I asked him how inflicting pain on another living being is art. He said, "She's expressing herself and any time you express yourself, that's art."
The class I hate most is history. In all my schooling, I was never taught world history. It was always American history, as if only America matters. The classes were nothing but a "white guilt" trip--the basic message was that whites were an evil race caused all the problems in the world.
Noble Realms → Conspiracy → School
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