• From: Saint Louis
  • Registered: 2004-08-21

Re: Kabbalah - what is it?

Auendove wrote:

Stephen,

I went back and forth with myself since Christine posted this as to whether or not I wanted to include the web page I noted here not only because of the appearance of the page but also because of the Crowley quote.  I even deleted a part of my post making a disclaimer about the quote, myself not being a fan of Crowley, but I kinda thought that was nit-picking given the article is about Bucky Fulminster and not Crowley.

Given I'm far more interested in the mechanics/science/geometry of the Tree of Life, and as well for the sake of my education--did you read any "impure" information in the text of the article compared to other texts or articles you've read?

If so and you're able to outline this for me briefly to the end I can recognize the article as disinformation I will happily remove my post... I never want to be a source of disinformation because I am unwittingly being naive.

Auendove, I wasn't refering to your link when I mentioned that bit about Crowley. I briefly checked out the site and it looks interesting as I'm a fan Bucky too, will read more.

It is actually pretty hard to research the Qabalah and not bump into Crowley. Dion Fortune who wrote the book I recommended was for a while a member of the Golden Dawn along with Crowley, Israel Regardie, Macgregor Mathers and others. From what I know  she split from this group fairly early on, but lot of these characters got into some questionable stuff and some like Crowley definitely got into some downright evil sh**. Some say that even Crowley did some good research and that there is value in some of the material he wrote before going completely mad, but I've had always had an aversion to him and could not even pick up one of his books.

An awful lot of the literature that is out there on the Qabalah or 'Western Tradition Occultism' originates from these guys or other turn of the century 'occultists' such as Madame Blavatsy when books of the subject matter were first popularly printed. There was a lot of interesting stuff going on in that time period.

I personally have mixed feelings about the Qabalah. It is a system of knowledge that can be used as a tool. Like any tool, it can be used in negative or positive way. I got into it and also ceremonial magic (related perhaps, but not the same) at about the same time years ago, it seemed to me at the time to be the only game in town to offer practical steps to expanding conciousness and power and it also offered explanations for things that were happening to me, something I was unable to find anywhere else. And yeah, I've got to admit I thought It would be cool to be able to make sh** happen. I read a lot of books, dabbled around a bit, and did make some sh** happen, though often backfired in some way. I was even invited to a 'Golden Dawn study Group' by the owner of the local occult bookstore. When I arrived for the first meeting they all were thrilled to finally have found a twelth member to complete the group(hmmm, twelve members only). Though some of the group kinda gave me the creeps, I was excited to meet other people that shared the same interests. Well evidently my car did not care much for the group, for each subsequent scheduled meeting it would inexplicably break down, overheat, get a flat tire, this must have happened three or four times before I gave up trying to go. After that I was treated to a whole variety of experiences that taught me that my intentions were not pure enough to mess with that stuff (magic) without getting into trouble. (i now thank my guides for intervening)
I did continue to study the Qabalah for a while but realized to really get into it I'd have to learn Hebrew, tried for a while but man, though it is a fascinating langauge, that's a lot of studying.

When I think about the Qabalah these days, there is something dark there and I'm not exactly sure what it is. It could just be remnants of the stuff I went through and associate with it. I'm suspicous of this 'modern resurgence' led by none other than the Material Girl herself. Also I've learned that a lot of it's symbolism is shared in some of the more esoteric Masonic studies and rituals which raises my eyebrows a notch or two. Also knowing that a lot of the info we have on it is distilled from the Golden Dawn gang makes me wonder, not that they are all bad, but who are they really and where did they get their info? I'd love to talk to a Mystic Jewish  Rabbi about it, but as far as I know, they're not talking. Finally, and I'm generalizing here and perhaps going too far, there seems to be something about it that feeds the ego, please don't ask me to explain as this is just an overall impression I get.
Well, that's my take on it, for what it's worth.

Stephen

17 Reply by aaronfirebrand

  • aaronfirebrand
  • Guest

Re: Kabbalah - what is it?

Stephen, I think your take on Qabalah is worth a lot. My experience with crowley was as yours. An acquaintance tried to turn me on to him. I couldn't even pick the book up to open it. "When in doubt, leave it out."

18 Reply by ermolai (edited by ermolai 2004-08-31 03:51:09)

  • From: sw tz rl nd
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: Kabbalah - what is it?

Same here, my feelings and short experiences with that stuff tell me to be careful. At any case, you don't need it for spiritual progress anymore than you need other tools. Anyone who tries to convince you otherwise is suspicious in my book.

ermolai's Website

19 Reply by Christine B. (edited by Christine B. 2004-08-31 04:31:26)

  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: Kabbalah - what is it?

ermolai wrote:

At any case, you don't need it for spiritual progress anymore than you need other tools.

Ermolai,

Could you clarify this statement, please?  Are you saying that the tools of Kaballah are no more important than other tools?  Or are you saying that spiritual tools are not important for spiritual growth?  Or are you saying something completely different.  I'm sorry but it's not clear to me.

stephen m wrote:

I'd love to talk to a Mystic Jewish   Rabbi about it, but as far as I know, they're not talking.

Stephen,
Aaronfirebrand mentioned mystic Judaism (perhaps not those exact words) awhile back in a post.  I asked him if he was referring to Kaballah but (sigh) he never answered.

My understanding is that kaballah is the mystical aspect of Judaism.  Therefore a "mystic Jewish Rabbi" would be a Kaballist and a Rabbi.

Is this incorrect?  Could you tell me what you are referring to when you say Mystic Jewish Rabbi?

Thanks very much.

Christine B.

  • From: sw tz rl nd
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: Kabbalah - what is it?

Christine B. wrote:
ermolai wrote:

At any case, you don't need it for spiritual progress anymore than you need other tools.

Ermolai,

Could you clarify this statement, please?  Are you saying that the tools of Kaballah are no more important than other tools?  Or are you saying that spiritual tools are not important for spiritual growth?  Or are you saying something completely different.  I'm sorry but it's not clear to me.

This is as a caution against those who would make you believe that knowledge of the Kaballah is absolutely crucial to reach "enlightenment" or whatever, or that if you don't know it then you're just a "novice", IE the idea that there is One True Path.

I believe that these esoteric traditions had values in the past in the sense that they were like paths already walked by others through the veils of illusions, so by keeping to it, it was easier (somewhat) for people to free themselves (whenever someone cross a veil, it's easier for those behind him/her). However what is going now (and until 2012) is totally different since there are millions of seekers/diggers and the aim, as I see it, is to dig the entire Matrix until we can all be free. On the other hand, since at the same time the Matrix is "closing down", I have the feeling that many of these ancient traditions are riddled with traps and there is not one I would trust entirely. This goes with this quote from the Handbook from the New Paradigm (on the other thread) according to which we need creativity, that is, our own creative path.

ermolai's Website

  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: Kabbalah - what is it?

Ermolai,

Thanks very much for the clarification.  I agree completely - any path which says it is the "only" way to freedom is a trap.

But, rather than throw out the baby with the bath water, I prefer to learn as much as I can about various paths which I resonant with ... and take from each of them what works for me, throwing out the rest.

Which according to an (ex)Toltec friend of mine, makes me a worthless self-help junkie ... ahh, the compassion and empathy of the fully enlightened <said with a smidge of irony>

Never ceases to amaze me how the "enlightened" can be so incredibly judgemental.

I'm going to have to find that book you referenced "Handbook from the New Paradigm"

Thanks, again.
Christine B

22 Reply by aaronfirebrand

  • aaronfirebrand
  • Guest

Re: Kabbalah - what is it?

Christine, it appears that you are saying there is no such thing as absolute truth when you state that "any path which says it is the only way to freedom is a trap". By that, do you mean that there is no "true path", which would represent an absolute truth?
When someone says that there is no absolute truth, it is really an attempt to establish an absolute truth: that there is none.
And simply because most teaching is faulty is no reason to assume that all teaching is.
Christine, why do you say I never answered you regarding qabalah and jewish mysticism? My answer is right there in the same thread as your question!
Sheesh!

  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: Kabbalah - what is it?

Aaronfirebrand,

I wasn't even slightly upset -- I guess I should have put a smiley face along with the sigh --
I'll have to go back into the various threads to see what you posted.  I guess I must have missed your answer, it was awhile ago and could have been sent when I was out of town due to the hurricane scare here in Tampa Bay a couple of weeks ago.  In any case, thanks for answering and I'll go look to see what you had to say.  (I don't even remember which "Topic" it was in ... and I find it rather hard at times to find topics which become buried in time)

IF I made it sound as if I don't believe there is absolute truth, I should have emphasized that I don't like it when various systems/religions/paths claim to be "THE ONLY ONE"

It's the organization/system/path that I object to ... not the TRUTH within a path.

I can't really see how you feel I was saying that while most teaching is faulty there is no reason to assume all teaching is.  I try to assume nothing.  (not that I succeed all the time mind you). 

In fact, because I don't assume I was willing and continue to be willing to check out Kabbalah -- (and other teachings) which if I took things at face value here on NR, I would not have had the inclination to check it out -- for myself. 

But, are we actually saying the same thing about truth, absolute truth and paths?  I think we agree and there seems to be some miscommunication entering into the post.

In any case, thanks for the answer to jewish mysticism.  I'll check it what you had to say.  Sorry I jumped the gun...errr, assumed you had not answered.:)

Christine B.

24 Reply by aaronfirebrand

  • aaronfirebrand
  • Guest

Re: Kabbalah - what is it?

1. Tom's search engine for this site works really well. My response to your question about qabalah was posted within 3 hours. You had also asked about Lamed Vavniks, and I kindly included an essay in reference to that. I try to respond to any questions directed to me. I try to be a good guy. It gets me nothing but grief. I believe I'm a fool half the time for even getting involved in some of the "discussions".
2. My statement regarding faulty teaching was an obvious interpretation of your comments. By saying that "any path which says it is the only way to freedom is a trap", you are saying that no path presents the truth, if it claims to do so. In saying this, you indicate that you find fault with them all. I mean, the ones which claim to be the truth. But I never heard of one that didn't..."Hi! Welcome to the Church of No Pretense of Validity!"
3. If you say "organized religion" when you mean organized religion, and "path" when you mean path, I would find it easier to understand what you are saying. To my mind they are two different things.
Actually, Christine, I don't know what you're saying. I'm saying:
     There is Absolute Truth (by definition of terms, this must be so)
     It can be found (where you'd least expect it, where it's most heavily camouflaged)
     A Relative Truth is not Truth
     

Excuse the brusque nature of this post. I feel as though I've awakened in an asylum. And I'm on Automatic for the duration.

  • From: sw tz rl nd
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: Kabbalah - what is it?

aaronfirebrand wrote:

Christine, it appears that you are saying there is no such thing as absolute truth when you state that "any path which says it is the only way to freedom is a trap". By that, do you mean that there is no "true path", which would represent an absolute truth?

I don't understand you, why the fact that there is more than one path would mean there is no absolute truth? Or did I get something wrong? As I see it, we are all going to the same destination, the One or whatever you want to call it, but there are vastly different ways to reach this goal. And we would not have an entire picture of the Truth if there was not all these different paths. What do you think?

ermolai's Website

26 Reply by Auendove (edited by Auendove 2004-08-31 11:27:31)

  • From: terra incognita
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: Kabbalah - what is it?

arronfirebrand wrote:

I believe I'm a fool half the time for even getting involved in some of the "discussions".

While I can readily identify with your sentiment about feeling like a "fool half the time" for getting involved (how I push past it sometimes, I'll never know... I suppose I don't mind making a fool of myself)... well, I just want you to know I've gotten a good deal of education, and even some growth mr. 'fire, from reading your thoughts, as well as fellowship and support.  Also, what comes off the page at me when reading your words looks a lot like wisdom, EXPERIENTIAL wisdom... even if I'm not agreeing with you, or don't yet know how to agree or disagree with you (and I'm not just blowing sunshine up your energy field here either "old man" wink).

I, as only one NR member (not speaking for any other), don't have to agree with you or any other just to recognize how I can grow from your/their ideas... even if my growth comes from my own sense of disdain or disbelief.  This I'm called forth to do, by virtue of being in the body and being a "seeker", the conflict of ideas serves me to "grow out of" personal complacency.

You HAVE awakened into an "asylum", duality can be real putrid and it blows chunks sometimes... because of the dualistic nature of our "reality" for every piece of in-formation there's likely to be an equal and reactive piece of dis-in-formation. Like I said--it blows chunks.

And if you think your just on "Automatic" drive, as you say, then I  would really, really like to see you put it into gear.  But then again, Snicker! Snort!... maybe that's one of those "be careful what you ask for little girl, you just might get it" things. I've always been a "spiritual" fast track kind of woman though, I'd probably be able to handle it <she writes sensing a big Nor'westerly wind about to blow her so'easterly way>. big_smile

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
------
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we might as well dance.
------
If you spin around on your chair really fast, things around here will make a lot more sense.

lol

27 Reply by aaronfirebrand

  • aaronfirebrand
  • Guest

Re: Kabbalah - what is it?

Auendove, I appreciate your sentiments. My asylum comment was regarding the last week or so, though. It's my impression (from limited exposure) that very recently, a substantial part of "humanity" has gone stark raving mad. Insane. I would be more comfortable with this if I thought for a second that it might be me who's gone around the bend. It's not me, and I can generally prove that with some simple checks.
I'm going on automatic due to man's recent plunge into madness, which attempts to swallow us all. I can dodge it by assuming a robotic response to everything. If I have no emotional reaction, less attention is given to me. "Shutting Down Here."
I like that "blowing sunshine up your energy field".

  • From: terra incognita
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: Kabbalah - what is it?

arronfirebrand wrote:

My asylum comment was regarding the last week or so...

Well okay, but I'm remined of a quote I read that said "Earth is the insane asylum of the Universe".  I don't know who said it, but I sure was yanking my head up and down for reading it.

arronfirebrand wrote:

I like that "blowing sunshine up your energy field".

Cool beans Brother/Man!

Today's mighty oak is just yesterday's nut that held its ground.
------
Life may not be the party we hoped for, but while we're here we might as well dance.
------
If you spin around on your chair really fast, things around here will make a lot more sense.

lol
  • Registered: 2004-03-25

Re: Kabbalah - what is it?

Aaronfirebrand,

Thank you for the essay on Lamed Vavniks and Jewish mysticism.  You're right, Tom's search engine works great.

I certainly don't think of you as a fool to enter into the various discussion ... but I empathize with the feeling.  I often feel that way as well.

Christine B.

  • From: Saint Louis
  • Registered: 2004-08-21

Re: Kabbalah - what is it?

Christine B. wrote:
stephen m wrote:

I'd love to talk to a Mystic Jewish   Rabbi about it, but as far as I know, they're not talking.

Stephen,
Aaronfirebrand mentioned mystic Judaism (perhaps not those exact words) awhile back in a post.  I asked him if he was referring to Kaballah but (sigh) he never answered.

My understanding is that kaballah is the mystical aspect of Judaism.  Therefore a "mystic Jewish Rabbi" would be a Kaballist and a Rabbi.

Is this incorrect?  Could you tell me what you are referring to when you say Mystic Jewish Rabbi?

Thanks very much.

Christine B.

Hi Christine, I think I just pulled that term out of the air.

I have held in my mind the impression that in order to learn Qabalah through the Jewish tradition you had had to be a member of the faith and put in years of study before you were granted access to the knowledge. This goes back to the whole 'word of mouth' thing as there is no official 'Book of the Qabalah' and was kept that way purposefully to protect the knowledge. I've even heard the story that the original Ten Commandments (the ones that got smashed to pieces) were the Qabalah. There are two books or texts that go deep into the philosophy of the Qabalah, the Zohar and the Sepher Yetzirah. This is where the knowledge of the Hebrew language comes into play, either that or rely on the translations of the Golden Dawn guys. Certainly, the language barrier itself acts as a bit of a firewall of protection.

This impression was given to me from what I read, all of it from the western tradition which may have enhanced this idea to add to it's mystique, I don't know. Currently, there may be a lot more information available from the Jewish tradition, I haven't really looked to be honest, but perhaps will, Lamed Vavniks sounds interesting.

In a way it is a dichotomy of sorts. The beauty of it is that it is a system of knowledge that you learn by interacting with it and meditating on the concepts of it and only through that will it come alive and have meaning to you. Unfortunately, to obtain the concepts to meditate on, you will either have to trust somebody elses interpratation or be prepared to study your ass off for years. I guess I must have given up and took the hamburger.

Or then again, maybe you could just go ride a bike and it will all come to you, ha.

Stephen