An open letter to David Icke. (Page 7 of 10)

I didn’t have any intention of dragging this out, and actually deleted my first post.  But then we all have something to say – so here it is

As soon as I read that post over at the Icke forums I knew it was written by Lyra...exactly for the reasons that Lyra herself stated.

Also - another funny point.  From the moment I first read this thread, and made a couple of posts myself - the thought was always in the back of my mind that the shit would hit the fan the moment you posted here.  Funny that isn't it.  Oh - and I am usually the last to have a go at anyone anywhere - so the fact I am even writing this says a lot.

Maybe you should take a long hard look at your posting style before you bash others.  Reflections and mirrors and all that eh...

We can talk all we like about illusions and ego and all that lovely stuff, heck we can even talk about freedom of speech and our right to an opinion.  But the BIG difference between Lyra's post and your post really is very simple.

Lyra’s post was a statement about herself.  It may well be fact (I personally believe it is fact based upon my own reaction when I read her post on the Icke forums)...or alternatively we can look at it as self-aggrandizement, or arrogance etc.  The one thing it certainly was not though was an attack on anyone.  Lyra did not directly nor indirectly make a statement against anyone.  If any of us felt she did, or if any of us thought she was obnoxious - well we are all responsible for our own reactions after all.

On the flip side - your post was most certainly an attack.  You can wrap it up and call it an "opinion" (and opinion is another funny topic isn't it?) but at the end of the day - your statement was wrapped in negativity, in as much as what was said as what was unsaid.  Your post served no purpose whatsoever other than to highlight your own personal emotional reactions.  To me that is far more arrogant than anything Lyra has ever posted.

Why?  Well because it shows that you feel your offense, or your "opinion" or your "feelings" or whatever, deserve a spotlight on them.  To later back this up by saying "Well I am sure others think the same thing!" merely degrades your "opinion" even further, because it shows you need backing in order to support it.

I could go on - but that would just be like bashing you whilst you are down, and further just like the rest of this post, it would merely be a reaction from my ego - regardless of how valid it is.

Now that funny point about "opinion"?  Well it's funny how everyone thinks that because they are all entitled to their own opinions, that automatically means those opinions deserve their equal share of the limelight.  Well the truth is they do not.  Opinions are merely "points-of-view"...that means some are valuable whilst others are utterly useless.  Somewhere along the way people have gotten very confused about this whole idea on "opinion".  You see they tie them to their feelings - and so then their opinion mustn't be invalidated because that hurts their feelings.

Opinions from a lot of people are emotional based - thus they have a high percentage of bullshit.  Whilst opinions from others are based on observable (physically, spiritually or whatever) fact / data, thus they are sustainable and worthwhile.  Nowadays everyone and their dog believes their opinions mean something.  But if such people can not distinguish between the two types of opinion - then what sort of insight are they capable of giving?

There is a lot of talk on these forums about "spiritual enlightenment"...many people seem to think they are there.  But it is very clear indeed to see which people are "there" and which people are not.  And all this talk of humility?  Well I have another slant on it.

Talking about ones self - well that is ok, even if it is self-aggrandizement.  It is okay so long as it doesn't become an emotional burden on others (ie. Constantly seeking others validation "Love me, love me!!").  Lyra is neat for example.  She talks about herself, she knows her qualities and she knows her stuff.  And yes she calls a spade a spade, and even picks the odd fight.  But although she projects her own emotion all over the place, she never attempts to pull other peoples emotion into her own circle.  She will argue with you until she is blue in the face, but she never cries from offense, or hurt or upset.  She never calls for others to validate her own worth.  There is a humility in that, which shows the capability of being able to stand ones own ground.  Indeed I think it is pretty powerful.

Conversely there is the other type of self-aggrandizement, where one never talks about their self per-se, but rather they babble endlessly about what they believe, and what they feel is right and wrong.  But rather than being constructive and usable - these concepts just go round endlessly in the same tired old circle.  You see it all the time all over the place...the New Age is full of it!!  Funny that such people believe they are humble because they never speak about themselves.  Yet all they ever do is speak about what they believe.  This is different to the aforementioned example, because it draws other peoples emotions in.  It sucks and sucks – seeking validation constantly.  It doesn’t argue in order to get across an insight, rather it argues and stamps its feet so that it can be observed and made real.  Heck it even cries out when it doesn’t get the attention it feels it deserves.

And well now - rather than this post being a pointless rant, we can tie it back to the original theme.  I feel that Icke used to fall into the first category - but lately he has shifted into the second category.  That doesn't make him "useless" by any means...but it certainly shows that he may have reached the roof of his potential.  After all, not everyone’s potential on this plane is equal.

Neither... you said most.

But I'm not trying to attack you or make you wrong.  I just wanted to offer an idea of how the original statement may have come across since I am unbiased in that I like and admire both you and Jen very much.  Like I said, I thought her response was very harsh, but isn't it possible that her statement was received differently than she intended the same way yours was?   Just a thought.

(Jen peeking in here}

When I first posted that remark, I was purely irritated, but in posts
following, I tried to smooth things over with lyra, and  to explore the broader and deeper (and lighter) aspects of this issue. 

Thank you for your kind words, MysticalGirl.    Thanks also to impatiens, whose post was unfortunately deleted.

(Jen disappears again)

I think becoming self-sufficient is key.  Has anyone here made any changes related to that, such as bartering, using solar and/or wind power and getting off the grid, or growing your own food?

By the time lyra first posted in this thread, four other people had already agreed with Neomatrix. While she was worried about "Icke bashing", it hadn't happened yet and so she commented on the ways she also agreed. But the very next post, in her eyes, confirmed her worries.

Lyra - "I totally disagree with you here, and this is why I was hoping this wouldn't turn into some thread where people all turn on Icke and begin nitpicking the petty stuff."

Things went back to normal for a while. Then through the course of discussion with Meerkat, Lyra started defending Icke and started to seem insensitive in a way that many of us have.

Lyra - "Well, that's their problem then, isn't it?  Think about it.  If that's too much for them, and it turns them off, then let them close the book and walk away. You can't please everybody. Trying to tone it down to appease the "sensitive" types, (which is what would make you happy) means the people with thick skins lose out because they're not receiving straight forward, in your face information that they're looking for. Blaring from the rooftops with reckless abandon pleases the people who can handle it, but scares off the sensitive people. So you really can't win then.  So in the end, just be true to yourself.  For David Icke, blaring from the rooftops was what was true to him.  Others like to tip toe, and sugar coat, and whisper while simultaneously flinching and ducking.  That's what's right for them.   If you spend all of your time trying to please everybody so nobody gets alienated you'll just go in circles and accomplish nothing.   Somebody's always going to be unhappy no matter what you do, that's just the nature of life.  So we have to do what we're guided to do, what would please *us.*"

Marcus then made some good counterpoints regarding Neomatrix's open letter, and they had a dialogue. Third Wave shared his frank response, and so did Mystery. At this time, a debate developed between he and Neomatrix. Eventually, a label was applied in the heat of arguing.

Neomatrix - "I should have expected the Icke followers to come rushing to his defence here."

Lyra then made a fair post, perhaps subtly trying to calm the situation. It seemed to have that effect somewhat, until the Icke forum became a point of discussion. Montalk was mistakenly attributed authorship of the open letter, and Lyra was upset enough to share a piece of her mind with us.

Lyra - "What's annoying is how Neomatrix's letter has been posted on the Icke forum............and has been misrepresented as being from the "editor of the Montalk site", who "has a few words for Mr. Icke"  !!!  That really bugs me.   It's a pet peeve of mine when people are stupid and don't pay attention to the details!!!!!   Hello, what part of "NEOMATRIX" don't they get??   sigh.  Oh well, what can you do.   People can be so dippy."

She also shared that piece of her mind with members of the Icke Forum, but under a different name.

PhoenixRising/Lyra
12/03@0649 http://www.davidickeforum.com/forum/vie … 340#204340
12/03@1731 http://www.davidickeforum.com/forum/vie … 714#204714

Over on the Icke Forum, a member called Racsouran began arguing with PhoenixRising/Lyra, as well as generally bad-mouthing both Icke's and Montalk's site and forum. But here at Noble Realms, confusion over who posted the clarification at Icke's Forum resulted in the post which brings us to where everything really, truly, began.

Risen - "Glad to see someone finally came along over there and set the record straight on the author -- from the posting style I'm guessing it might have been HB but I may be wrong.  Anyway, thanks to whoever that was."

I mentioned that no, it wasn't me. Then, Lyra shared that it was her - plus a little extra.

Lyra - "Besides Risen, I would have figured by the posting style that it had the signature energy of "lyra" written all over it.     I have a pretty unique way of talking / writing, it stands out in a sea of "sameness" as often found on messageboards, where most of the voices sound alike and blur together."

Before I continue this summarization, let me discuss the implications of Lyra's statements.

I would have figured - implication is that Lyra would've figured out what Risen couldn't
by the posting style - implication is that PhoenixRising's posting style was distinctive
that it had the signature energy - implication is that the author was easily identifiable
of "lyra" written all over it - implication is that PhoenixRising should obviously be Lyra
- this could mean so many things, and emoticons are often misunderstood, right?
I have a pretty unique way - implication is that very few others are like Lyra
it stands out - implication is that Lyra's communications are notably different
in a sea of "sameness" - implication is that pervasive difference is originality
as often found of messageboards - implication is that most message boards often contain unoriginality
most of the voices - implication is that a majority of people are unoriginal
sound alike and blur together - implication is that their communications have no distinctiveness

Lyra was responding to the fact that it wasn't obvious to Risen that PhoenixRising on Icke's Forum was Lyra. Her previous statements in this thread, combined with her statements to Risen, began to suggest to a few members here that Lyra wants everyone to know there are many, not just some, but many individuals which aren't as distinctive as she. What I think several members recognized, is that Lyra wasn't just making a statement about herself - she was making a statement about a great many people, including people here at Noble Realms. In her attempt to distinguish herself from the "sameness", she can be perceived as feeling "above" most people on message boards.

Jen - "Get over yourself, lyra."

It was probably inevitable that after what Lyra said, someone was going to be unable to resist saying something to her about how she comes across. Considering the verbiage that Lyra herself has employed in some of her recent posts in other threads, what Jen said is tame. She just couldn't take it anymore.

Lyra - "What, do you want a war here Jen?   You want to follow me around and start shit wherever I post?   Is that what you want, so we can go back and forth and rip each other apart?   Let me know.   I'm very good at it, and you won't win.  Then, Montalk will just have to get on here and delete the posts anyway.   But I'm sure it will be great fun in the meantime until they get deleted, eh?  If that's the sort of thing you're into?"

I don't know about you, but that response sounds very melodramatic. Lyra acted like the proverbial scared animal in the corner, in that she viciously lashed out with her best intimidation show. Not only did she play the "I'll win" card, she played the "our posts will get deleted anyway" card. She then adds to the fire, and one can't help but believe that she indeed wants to start a "war" with Jen.

Lyra - "The thing is, Jen had to consciously choose whether to hit "post" and to go ahead and basically declare a flame war in a thread that had nothing to do with her, regarding a comment that wasn't even directed to her.....and which wasn't even a bad comment, btw.  That was a choice to type those words and hit post.   Which reveals a lot.    It's also quite "passive aggressive."  Because of her behavior in other threads, and the comments that have resulted from it, she lashes out at me in this thread, instead of dealing with things at the time, back in those threads."

Some may agree with you that your comment wasn't bad, but if others think your comment was bad, then it was. That the comment wasn't directed at any specific person by name, does not mean it wasn't directed at some group of people. I think that's the point that many people defending Lyra in the ensuing "war" are missing. Lyra insulted a group of people, whether you think she was or wasn't. Whether her relationship with Montalk makes her feel like she can be "active aggressive" and get away with it, we can only speculate. Whether it actually does give her more freedom to be "active aggressive", we can only speculate.

Lyra - "And I did think about what a flame war would entail...it would be nasty, because I would get ugly, and very personal, and it would just be ugly, there's no other word for it.   And I do know better.   It doesn't make me feel "good", but, I do have the capability.  It's like possessing an unpleasant weapon of sorts.  Like having a gun, loaded with verbal / written bullets.  But yet, the point needed to be made - Putting the ball back in her court to double check....is this what you want?  Think about it....is this what you really want?   Talk about stirring up the hornets nest!   Unlike hornets, with people you can get a chance for reconsideration.   Also, unlike hornets, people have email.   And I wholeheartedly offer up mine, which can be found by clicking on my name."

On the surface, it sounds like Lyra considers herself a linguistic assassin, capable of slaying her opponents with deadly words. She's well aware how much damage her "weapon" can inflict, but that doesn't stop her from pulling the trigger. It all sounds like more intimidation show, to make the "enemy" back down. Finally, other members start voicing their opinions. Some think that Jen had a valid point, especially in light of Lyra's further self-elevation.

Jen - "I would imagine there are others here who agree with me that you need to get over yourself, but I doubt they'd want to say so."

Lyra - "But they haven't said anything.  So until they do, speak for yourself.  Implying that others *might* feel a certain way doesn't make your case.   Right now, you're responsible for your own words, thoughts, and posts.  Not others."

As evidenced by ensuing statements by people besides Jen, others did feel a certain way and even said so. Yet the response they each received was an "active aggressive" one from Lyra. I will wrap up this summarization with two more comments from Lyra and one more from myself.

Lyra - "At any rate, congratulations to you Jen, for being your usually crazy self, with your crazy eyes and all."
Lyra - "Human Being, we all saw your loopy beligerant posts last week.  So you're really not in a place to be inputting anything, I don't think."

It seems that Lyra has taken to calling people names lately. Using unsavory adjectives like "crazy". Why is she doing this? Is it truly because she's defending herself in the face of other vicious attacks? Is it because her social standing here, for whatever reason, makes her more aggressive than she would be at someone else's message board? Ultimately, it seems that people who support her can't just stop without getting in another few words. So it's in the spirit of balance that I offer these final statements of my own. Montalk, if you don't delete the posts in this thread, I applaud you. But, it seems like sooner or later, Lyra is going to push the envelope too far.

In Other News:

Something's going on, subtly in a number of people's lives - mine included to a very considerable degree.  It's of a negative source trying to separate and dis-integrate, sort of a "divide and conquer" nameless thing that, were it to have its way, would have sort of an undoing nature to things which are supposed to be.

Before anyone jumps on me to trying to referee, I felt this way far before I even logged in and checked out what's happened in the past couple of days on this thread.  Seeing it only made we want to make this feeling known.

Does anyone feel it in their own lives at this time?  To me, I sense it as fairly pervasive - not just my own little world.  Maybe I am wrong, I don't know.

A humble but frank offering:  If this hypothesis/gut feeling is correct, then it is important to NOW re-fresh our framework of thinking, let go of what is not really ours to own, and *override the system* - to achieve positive ends.  There are some timeframes/circumstances in which the importance of making the right decisions is escalated - similar to how montalk suggested in his illustration of the 'deja vu' phenomenon in another thread.