• czyx
  • czyx
  • Sparking the gap.
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  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2004-09-11

Re: Is it True?

Ian wrote:

czyx, interesting analysis. However, I must strongly disagree with you about the Trobrianders. You would do well, if you are so inclined, to read Bronislaw Malinowski's Argonauts of the Pacific, the ethnography he conducted with those people.

That's fair. My research on the Trobrianders was pretty hasty, and the focus of my analysis was overly narrow. I've added that book to my "to read" list.

Ian wrote:

So what if they don't have ritual for everything they build/do? They would be doing rituals 24/7. And if that's a sign to cutback technologically, then we better not have more than a few Oldowan stone tools and sticks.

I just had an interesting thought regarding the rituals. What if music were made a part of a technology building ritual, and each step (of extraction, preparation, assembly, etc.) was assigned its own note or interval? You could then have some pretty complex technologies accompanied by equally complex singing rituals, but the rituals wouldn't  take up too much time. Each piece of technology would have its own ritual song, and each song could have many notes. With proper occult knowledge of the notes and their meanings, bad technology could be rejected because it would produce ugly, un-singable, or overly long songs. You'd have the song of the knife, the song of the clay bowl, etc. This might be one way to maintain intimate knowledge of the composition of your technology while expressing thankfulness and limiting growth. Song forms might even protect technology through difficult times, such those brought by missionaries and conquistadors who might ban or destroy external manifestations of certain technologies. Have you ever heard of such a thing? I know songs accompany work in many cultures, but I don't know if they've ever been found to act as precise instruction sets for the internal occult aspect of a culture's technology.

Ian wrote:

Please read my post on the Anthropik form under The Collapse, me and raku (and others) had a nice debate/discussion. My thoughts on technology are somewhat elaborated there.

Will do. smile

--Justin

17 Reply by Ian

  • Ian
  • Member
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  • From: Ottawa, CAN/Sydney, AUS
  • Registered: 2005-06-21

Re: Is it True?

Very interesting czyx. No I have not heard of something quite like that, but given the mathematical/harmonic properties of sounds and music, and the symbolic aspect of songs/chants noted in almost every culture, then music can easily be treated as language and most likely could be used as you described it. There are documented examples of indigenous knowledge preserved and transmitted through the words of songs. In fact this is very common. The way you described it, though, would require a very different cognition and thus different culture and technology. Such a peoples would be very difficult to communicate with on our level. Indeed they would also have a vastly different perception of reality and language (music may be their language). Impossible to extrapolate an entire cultural system from one cultural element, but very interesting nonetheless!

I was wondering, czyx, if you would write down your thoughts on ritual, explaining what you see as its forms, functions and also their place within the broader cultural system. The reason I ask is that you have very imaginative and peculiar scenarios to illustrate your thoughts, which is good, but I have a difficult time gauging what you mean sometimes. If you could just operationalize some terms (give a working definition) and briefly lay down your thoughts, I would be very much obliged. I am very interested in ritual, myth and symbolism and have my won approach, but would like to hear your view first. Whenever it is conveniant for you. Thanks.

P.S. I've enjoyed our exchanges in this thread and feel as though it has become the "culture" thread, a home of sorts for anthropological discussion and talk about technology and culture. I hope it continues on, and that others will contribute more as well (like our friends Flinter and tenetnosce). Take care!

  • From: Peru
  • Registered: 2004-08-06

Re: Is it True?

I'm not sure if this is entirely relevant to what's being discussed here, as it doesn't relate to technology, but I find the concept and purpose of shamanic Icaros to be very interesting. Icaros are songs sung by amazonian ayahuasca shamans during the rituals. Different icaros serve different purposes including icaros for healing and icaros for manipulating the visions of an entire group of people. Having witnessed this myself I can say it's an amazing experience to be part of.

Here's a bit more information on the subject of Icaros:

Magic Melodies

The basic notion exists that ayahuasca teaches magic melodies known as "icaros." In fact, being a vegetalista is almost synonymous with mastering a vast repertiore of icaros - each of the different psychoactive plant spirits has its own icaro. Different types of icaros serve a variety of purposes ranging from love magic to divination to the cure of snakebite. "Shirohuehua" or fun songs, for example, animate the patient, inducing joy and hope.

"Manchari" are sung to lead an abducted soul back to its owner.

With the "icaro de aranita," a little spider spins a web around a man and a woman uniting them for all eternity.

Icaros are taught by the tutelary spirits of plants and animals: the raya-balsa, for example, an aquatic plant, can teach one to travel under the water. There are even icaros of perfumes, stones and resins.

The "sirenas" or mermaids are often invoked in ayahuasca sessions. They appear, singing beautiful icaros, accompanied by string instruments. Their icaros can give one power over the underwater world, particularly over the Bufeo or pink river dolphin. These creatures are feared and seen as mighty sorcerers, yet they are also invested with sexual allure. Men are said to feel an intense pleasure during coitus with dolphins, and are sometimes unable to separate themselves.

Icaros are used only during ayahuasca sessions. There is a hierarchy among shamans depending on the number and power of the icaros they know. The icaros sung in Spanish are not as powerful as those in jungle Quechua; mixtures of Quechua with Cocama and Omagua are particularly potent. Yet each shaman has a principal icaro which represents the essence of his power.

In the highly sensitized state of ayahuasca intoxication, the icaros help structure the vision. They can also modify the hallucinations themselves. Luna reports: "There are icaros for increasing or diminishing the intensity and color of the visions, for changing the color perceived, and for directing the emotional contents of the hallucinations."

Vegetalistas are masters of synaesthesia. Through using the most interesting acoustic effects produced by whistling and singing, the geometric designs can be seen acoustically. The maestros refer to an icaro as "my painted song," "my words with those designs," or "my ringing pattern."

The icaros are the quintessence of shamanic power. A good vegetalista is able to orchestrate beautiful or transformative visions through his or her magic melodies. Competitions sometimes arise between maestros to monopolize the visions of those present - a kind of competitive "jam session" where they unleash all their tricks.

Luna describes icaros as having great unearthly beauty and urges ethnomusicologists to record them soon, as they are an evanescent feature of shamanic culture, that is fast disappearing.  True ayahuasqueros, he claims, are dying out and their roles are being assumed by charlatans. The key to recognizing a true maestro is: does he know the magic  of the icaros?

http://www.biopark.org/peru/icaros.html

Join me in Peru to celebrate December 21st 2012 - Visit: http://2012awakeningretreat.com/

Ayahuasca's Website

19 Reply by czyx (edited by czyx 2005-11-14 18:40:49)

  • czyx
  • czyx
  • Sparking the gap.
  • Offline
  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2004-09-11

Re: Is it True?

Ian wrote:

I was wondering, czyx, if you would write down your thoughts on ritual, explaining what you see as its forms, functions and also their place within the broader cultural system. The reason I ask is that you have very imaginative and peculiar scenarios to illustrate your thoughts, which is good, but I have a difficult time gauging what you mean sometimes. If you could just operationalize some terms (give a working definition) and briefly lay down your thoughts, I would be very much obliged. I am very interested in ritual, myth and symbolism and have my won approach, but would like to hear your view first. Whenever it is conveniant for you. Thanks.

Ian, I've spent some time pondering this, and I just can't come up with anything more solid than what I've already said. If you are having a hard time gauging what I mean, it is most certainly because my thinking (and therefore writing) is itself unclear! I use intuitively guided imagination as a ladder to reach the truth, but sometimes I end up with my head in the clouds. For this I must apologize. In my writing I am trying to form a holistic picture (not just for the reader, but for myself) tying together murky truths I've encountered in the areas of anarcho-primitism, occultism, conspiracy theory, gnosticism, current technological trends, etc. If I were able to elucidate a system containing objectively true definitions of ritual, myth, and symbolism, I would not be on the internet! I would be outside singing to my plants, praying, or finding students to teach!

Judging by your posts at Anthropik, your understanding of scholarly anthropological matters (along with your clarity in communicating them) far exceeds my own. I think we would all benefit from working with your operational definitions rather than any I could come up with. My concern in all of this has more to do with the spiritual questions posed by what appears to be a "large scale death event" on the horizon. What is the nature of this type of death? Is it only a belief system which is dying? A way of living? What should we do to prepare? Who survived last time such an event occurred, and how? What was it about their way of life that saved them, and how did they come to develop this way of living? I think the answers to these questions can come from a number of sources, including but not limited to scientific anthropology.

somebody at biopark.org wrote:

Icaros are taught by the tutelary spirits of plants and animals: the raya-balsa, for example, an aquatic plant, can teach one to travel under the water. There are even icaros of perfumes, stones and resins.
...
Icaros are used only during ayahuasca sessions.

Interesting! I wonder if it's possible to hear these songs straight from the mouths of spirit creatures without ingesting psychoactive plants, though. I ask because there must be regions where people don't have access to ayahuasca, peyote, salvia, or other natural drugs that facilitate such communication.

somebody at biopark.org wrote:

There is a hierarchy among shamans depending on the number and power of the icaros they know.
...
Competitions sometimes arise between maestros to monopolize the visions of those present - a kind of competitive "jam session" where they unleash all their tricks.

Haha! You just got shaman-served! (That's a reference to this crappy movie.)

Neat stuff. Thanks for the link, Ayahuasca! The icaros sound very relaxing and pleasant. I did some searching and I was able to find and download an album called "Icaros from the Amazon" which has even more of these recordings. It's missing the first track, but if anybody is interested I can upload it somewhere.

--Justin
  • From: .au
  • Registered: 2005-10-14

Re: Is it True?

czyx wrote:

I did some searching and I was able to find and download an album called "Icaros from the Amazon" which has even more of these recordings. It's missing the first track, but if anybody is interested I can upload it somewhere.

Yes please czyx smile

Everything in what we call creation is energy resonating at different frequencies.
The universe is a song...
  • czyx
  • czyx
  • Sparking the gap.
  • Offline
  • From: Denver, CO
  • Registered: 2004-09-11

Re: Is it True?

Here you go: Ayahuasca Chants - Icaros from the Amazons

I think I prefer the recordings on that website, but these are still worth listening to at least once.

--Justin
  • From: .au
  • Registered: 2005-10-14

Re: Is it True?

czyx wrote:

Here you go: Ayahuasca Chants - Icaros from the Amazons

Thanks czyx smile

Everything in what we call creation is energy resonating at different frequencies.
The universe is a song...