What do you think of the idea that even when truth [or rather it's perfect reflection] appears in the material plane it will still appear as relative to those in the conciousness of relativity ?   After all,  it's opposite can always be found as can reflections that masquerade as reflections of the truth. Therefore such a person in the conciousness of relativity might see it as just another one of the many reflections in the 3d world.

For such a suggestion to be agreed as valid it might depend on our agreement that truth reflections are divine ideas clothed in form ... as distinct from ideas clothed in form which are not divine because they have sprung from the conciousness of duality.  [ yes all forms are divine... in essence... but forms created by the mind of duality are external constructs that do not vibrate with divine truth.]

This relates to the idea that a true spiritual teacher [ as a reflection of truth ] can only be recognised if a person has recognised a level of the inner teacher. [ ie. a reflection of the same truth in themselves.]  In that case it's not really putting one's faith in an outer teacher per se but rather a recognition,  confirmed within, that here is one who i can learn much  from. 

That kind of realisation can increase one's faith in intuition ... the teacher being there to help one increase and depend on that intuition even more.  Reading some of the posts above i s'pose i should also point out that what i'm trying to say is that it is by no means related to personal disempowerment.

Besides, isn't "Truth" subjective?

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Well which one is it people?!?

exactly...

I "believe" it is both.  There are two sides to the truth coin, subjective and objective. They are literally heads and tails (if you think of chakras/densities).  You're both right, but as Adama pointed out, people are arguing over words.  And words are just names that we give things; a name is a word and a word is a name...

The objective truths are the divine "names" or archetypes of the Logos.  These are the names "uttered" by the Creator to it's Creation, so obviously the names we give things at our microcosmic level are less than complete due to lack of true understanding and the separation that appears so real to us.  We are only learning to become the infinite Unity that creates our finite selves.   The subjective truths are gained through the evolution of individual souls, from the "Mother" to the "Father".  The objective truth would be "seeded" in the reverse direction/order from the Father.  So, the closer our consciousness is to material nature (1D) the more we experience separative truths, and the closer we are to unity (7D) the more we experience objective truth.

The "something" that nexus pointed out as the comparison of truth in his geometric analogy is this objective higher truth.  The untrue shape, to use the analogy, is the separated or individual consciousness that has been seeded and is now growing as the Creation.  It resembles it's creator but carries individual distortions that make it its own 1 within the One.

calpamu's self-way showing is the way that a separative being begins to attract and move towards the higher objective truths.  "Knowledge of self" leads to the Kingdom (according to my homeboy JC). The separation or distortions must be experienced in order for the Creation to become the Creator once again.  There are levels of truth, as we here have no doubt all experienced the surpassing of in our individual (and collective) paths.  As we increase the scope of our awareness through knowledge and experience (which work hand in hand) we not only increase our potential free will but also rework and shift our paradigms to be more objective and all-encompassing, this is the movement towards higher truths, moving up the levels. 

Though there is the duality of material truth and spiritual truth, they ultimately combine to form the total truth in unity. We move from reality to actuality as we approach the truth of the Creator from which we came.  Of course, reality is perceived as actual by those who dwell in units of distortion.
 

This is an important point.  Faith concerns itself with inner truth and that inner truth is what starts to really shine at the octave midway point of 4D.  Because the densities above us are veiled they exist in mystery to us lower octave dwellers.  Intuition is based on faith, thus we can't approach faith with logic.  Because our intuitive faculty represents the spiritual half of the Creator, while the logical represents the material half, we must develop faith (in ourselves as the Creator) in order to "move up the ladder", so to speak. 

I see faith as trust, as a child would let go of his parents hands in the deep end of a swimming pool knowing that if they get into trouble said parent will intervene.  But in order to surpass that initial fear of drowning of floating away the child must develop faith, first in the law of floatation and secondly in its own ability to swim and relinquish its dependance on other people or material safety devices.  As the above IS the below, so too is the outer also the inner.  As we gain trust in the Creation and it's functioning we gain trust in our selves as the Creator.  We know that our higher self will help us out if we're in trouble, if we ask and have faith, but we also have faith in our self as a "version" of the Creator. 

My faith comes from my fractured understanding of the One, that I am It, and vice versa.  There can't be faith without some degree of spiritual development/realization because faith has no place in the paradigm of the "real world".  The more you develop spiritually the more you have to work with in terms of faith, and the more faith you have the more your spirituality increases.  They work off each other in a feedback loop.  Knowing that I can help create my reality and increase my awareness stems from my experience with tapping into my spiritual (or TRUE) self and receiving the results.  That knowing is what allows for faith in Self as the Creator.  Faith is literally taking a leap forward and knowing that you will land unscathed and intact, or letting go in the water to realize that it's not that hard to swim after all.  This leap forward and release from the security of doubt and fear is another way of explaining spiritual graduation.

Faith is an inner quality, not an outer, because the outer world of logic and locality doesn't require it.  Thus, faith in anything outside of oneself is pointless and also NOT the point.   

We may learn many truths before we develop faith, but we can only learn THE truth by having faith in our eventually gradual development towards it.  Trust your higher self, it knows what's "up".

[the above post was not the truth, only the relative subjective truth of the 3D dwelling author ]

With Double Application:

Faith IN YOURSELF And Benevolent Design

or kak kak kak kak kak kak kak (see below):

http://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?id=2084

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And calpamu... did you not read between any of those lines i wrote?

Without faith in the true square how can you believe it, it's direction and guidance for you to transform yourself into IT ?

And BTW no true spiritual teacher says 'follow me' except to show the student [ of life ] how to 'follow' [ become ] his higher self.  You cannot follow an Adept any more than you can 'follow' a master builder to learn construction.  When you've reached a certain level of mastery in construction you may stay and work with your teacher or you may not and leave.   Too many people have had too many bad experiences with too many false 'gurus' that they have lost faith in anyone being the real Mcoy.

Some people who have attained spiritual self mastery have in turn become spiritual teachers.  A lot can be learned from a true spiritual teacher and it is not simply truth concepts that they can impart.  It is something much more valuable.  Because a true Adept has attained spiritual self conciousness he/she can impart that spirit to you.  You may question the value of that.  You may ask, if you have a spiritual self yourself why do you need a teacher... Adept or not ?

It's because most people have little or no true concious realisation of the inner Teacher.  As you know a tenuous thread of intuition which cuts in and out is not the fullness of higher conciousness.  The 'still small voice' is not always heard well enough to be an unerring guide even for most spiritual aspirants.  There may be certain inner directions that we are just not getting clearly.  There may be important things which if understood could accelerate our spiritual path.

You may currently have certain beliefs.  You may believe that a trustworthy spiritual Teacher cannot exist.  If so,  then it stands to reason that you may never find one.  If you believe that you don't need a spiritual Teacher then you wont accept one even if that teacher has much to offer.

The problem is, generally speaking,  that even spiritual aspirants may often have a poverty of spirit in their lives, such that they may not even know it.  The gulf between the inner conciousness and the outer awareness may seem to be very great.  A true spiritual teacher, compassionate and respectfull, has the spiritual empowerment to help bridge that gap to some degree even while they teach you how to realise and depend on your inner self.  A true Teacher does not want a student to worship them or depend on them.

A true spiritual teacher can actually transfer some portion of their own higher conciousness to yourself. It is a grace given to accelerate your realisation of yourself.  It is a gift that the Teacher can give in the role of 'mediator' between your soul and your higher self.  The cosmic law allows for this grace in the person of the true Teacher.  That is why they have always come.  Unfortunately they are invariably rejected by the sophistry of the average guy.  They are seen as dispensable for one reason or another usually because of mistrust.  The true teacher bows to the God in you and your freewill.

Forget the false teachers.   If we are truly aspiring and searching a true Teacher will reveal themselves to us.  But they never force.  It is up to each individual to recognise a little help when it comes.

A true Teacher [ if i may use the term once more ] is not " one of the many systems set up to keep us in slavery."  False teachers are exactly that.  In order to recieve what a true teacher has to give we just need to discern the difference.

but another interesting debate, perhaps truth is the truth no matter how you perceive it to be individually and cannot  be subjective.

Except i don't reckon truth is subjective.  If something is "true" it is true to something.  For example, in geometry certain geometric shapes are true.   A true square, or a true hexagram, a true equilateral triangle, a true circle. The angles must be true, the length of the lines in relation to each other line, true etc.

These geometric forms are not made true by our subjective perceptions of them, about which we may or may not agree.  A subjective argument can always be made in regard to them but the geometric forms are true or they are not true. 

I don't think we can say that universal truths are subjective either. We must discover them and align ourselves with them.
For example Buddha said the cause of suffering is "Dhukka". ie. an out of alignment state of being.  If that is true, and i believe it is, then our suffering is caused by being out of alignment with something. ie. not true to something.[ that something is our individual higher self or 'buddha' self ]

Just like in geometry, if you superimposed a 'poorly angled'[ skewed ] square over a true square it would be out of alignment with the true square.  If the 'poorly angled' square was you or I,  we could insist all day long that we were a true square and were acting like a square.  But it wouln't make us a square in truth.  Our perception of ourselves as true squares would not be true.  It would be subjective only.

Take the analogy a step further.
Superimpose the skewed square [ lower self ] over the true square [ higher self ] as before...

What if you had your identity at the periphery of the lines of the 'poorly angled' square and actually depended on the true square to communicate it's truth to your skewed awareness of yourself.  Although you would be 'out of alignment' with the true square, you would have a tenous connection to this truth where the lines of the true square intersected with the lines of the skewed square. 

If the true square could enlighten you to it's trueness and guide you to align your 'skewed' self to it's truth, then  a free flow of truth and energy could flow into you and through you.  Through this process you could come to know the square as it truly is. You would in truth then be a square.  This of course would not stop other people speculating as to whether or not you were a true square.

They would have their subjective opinions about you.  They would probably decide your 'trueness' by saying.. " that is 'your truth' that's all... we have our truth"  You might even say..." but, but "  And they might reply... " Besides we don't like the sound of you... away! " 

Phew.  I will stop it right there.

Your right Adama,it's pointless to argue over words, I'm looking for different perspectives regarding the word "faith" , the use of "faith" in our desires and the "faith" system as the world perceives it and whether it is a good ,bad or pointless concept to have "faith".
I'm just contemplating that it is perhaps pointless.
Even perhaps a weapon of suppression.

Nexus, I will never again allow anyone to tell me "this is the way, this is how you do it, follow me, I know the way to perfection, or I have the key to get out...." etc.
So no, I would not take the advise of any spiritual teacher, but I will take information as it is presented to me.
I went passed that the day I realised the many systems set-up to keep us in slavery.
I'm going to let myself show me the way.

I'm also wondering if , when I get there, if I get there, (I have no "faith" in myself), if I will like what I discover.

But this is not about me, it's about "faith".

Can you see it as a key deceptor, can you imagine it to be the same as another word, "belief" ,which is the same thing and therefore part of the deception?

See faith, apparently = belief and all these beliefs, have been set up to deceive us, therefore these words and concepts being part of this system cannot be trusted and should not be part of your "feel" perhaps, but part of your "knowledge".
It's just listening to the may different theories, many who concur with each other and intermingle, it becomes quite impossible to "believe" in anything anymore, apart from your own experience and knowledge.

So what I mean is, picture yourself knowing the whole truth,...ok you there?.......now you have no need for "faith".

It no longer exists, if "faith" exists in your world it is because it is part of the untruth.

It's like if someone asks you what you beleive in and you reply "I don't believe in anything, I only am", you might be there,you know,were we all want to be.

*Sorry if I'm blathering on , I'm just trying to figure this out, although it may have no relevence to anyone else or only partial relevence to some.*

When does the telepathic forum begin?

I have that sensation than we are more and more arguing on words, as if they were loosing a common meaning, and more and more words mean totally different things to more and more people.

Besides, isn't "Truth" subjective?

If a true spiritual teacher suggested you do certain activities to raise your conciousness would you do them?  It would take faith.  If the teacher gave you certain indications that he or she had God conciousness and informed you perhaps that certain abstinances and certain activities could begin to lead you to the same high spiritual level of conciousness would you do it ? 

If you doubted you wouldn't start the process offered.  You would first have to believe it. Then it would take an active faith.  Faith is the 'beggining'.  If your faith is proven then self knowlege is the reward.

A book i enjoyed reading was " The Autobiography of a Yogi " ... By Paramahansa Yogananda.

It's the story of his life [ really ] where he meets a true Adept [ judge for yourself ] who becomes his teacher and he goes through the rigours of initiation.  There is lots of cosmo science in the book and many of the true interpretations of eastern and western scriptures.  I laughed and cried reading that book.

If you don't "see" the truth then you haven't been looking for it.
You don't need "faith" to experience truth.:)