16 (edited by heandras 2006-07-16 15:42:32)

Re: Franz Bardon on hermetic wisdom and magick

Hildegarde, I agree… Power in itself is neither good nor bad. It is just what it is: the potential to change things according to one’s will. I second your statements about power and concentration.
But I don’t agree with this:

Hildegarde wrote:

If you still had STS intentions and behaviours, Divine Providence would continually force you to review your intentions on whether you are suited to this goal. Read the epilogue in IIH. It will help you understand this.

To me that is wishful thinking. Divine Providence –although sounding restrictive- doesn’t restrict free will. So, if it is the will of a person to lie to oneself about one’s own motivation it is allowed to happen. Otherwise no black magic would have ever been allowed to be performed.
The page you posted is not an excerpt from IIH, it’s from an external page from a person who is, as far as I can say, aligned to the right hand path. He sounds very rational and balanced. The original epilogue in IIH regarding introspection is much more vague - maybe intentionally to prevent the material offered being used for one side of the polarity only. The C’s stated oftentimes, that universal law determines balance for the handing-out of information, so that even in our STS-dominated world positively oriented material has the chance to be published. So maybe Bardon was conscious of that principle and kept his material as neutral as possible to keep the balance.
I have worked with these books successfully for some years and also have got to know some persons who have developed quite impressive abilities through taking practice in it. But looking back, most of them have been stuck in the STS-mode – unconsciously of course. Not that they were evil grim black magicians, but their acting was centred on gaining metaphysical power for the sake of power. To me this has become pretty pointless.
By the way, I suspect myself being a bit biased regarding this topic wink
I really like Montalk’s conclusion about proper application of will, lower impulses, awareness and the heart as motivator. One thing that has come to my mind: Are there terms like "joy" or "inner freedom"  mentioned somewhere in this book? I’d say, no. But this thread made me curious to re-read it, so I’ll have look for myself…

A man is born gentle and weak. At his death he is hard and stiff.
Green plants are tender and filled with sap. At their death they are withered and dry.
Therefore the stiff and unbending is the disciple of death. The gentle and yielding is the disciple of life.

Re: Franz Bardon on hermetic wisdom and magick

heandras wrote:
Hildegarde wrote:

If you still had STS intentions and behaviours, Divine Providence would continually force you to review your intentions on whether you are suited to this goal. Read the epilogue in IIH. It will help you understand this.

To me that is wishful thinking. Divine Providence –although sounding restrictive- doesn’t restrict free will. So, if it is the will of a person to lie to oneself about one’s own motivation it is allowed to happen. Otherwise no black magic would have ever been allowed to be performed.

You are true on this point. What I wrote sounded a bit off.
All I wanted to say was that I think a desire to change for the better is a prerequisite for this system.
Otherwise there will be barriers. The barriers could be subconscious or conscious.

heandras wrote:

The original epilogue in IIH regarding introspection is much more vague - maybe intentionally to prevent the material offered being used for one side of the polarity only.

You may be right. If you read commentaries and explanations on this from other Bardon related sources you will come to realise that he has provided what you need.

"The universe is on fire with wonder, beauty, and ecstasy." - From the Undines to Humanity

Re: Franz Bardon on hermetic wisdom and magick

Hello, all. New around here, but have a few thoughts.

A point that has been raised here is that of terminology. In the days when IIH was written, "control of thought" didn't have all the accretions of meaning we give it today, i.e. brainwashing, hypnotized drones, evil imposition on another's psyche etc, it just meant not living automatically or reactively, but to have awareness of thought processes and not be a slave to either the animal brain or the superego.

Like all practices that bring one in contact with what moves our world, inside and out, this "magic" or "hermetic science" is a two edged sword. There have been "black yogins" if you will, spiritual predators, and they use the same techniques to "gain power" as those on a pure path. In the religious context of hinduism and buddhism the earnest seeker is advised to never use any siddhi they develop, but to press ever onward. The western occult practices tend instead to lay the burden of ethics on the practitioner, though to my knowledge most occult groups  have some sort of ethics considerations in the oaths members take. (tons can be found online about the inner workings of the Golden Dawn, as both Crowley and Regardie renounced their silence oaths and spilt the beans and the Ciceros continued Regardie's divulgation campaign)

This of course can't stop folks from "losing it" at some point, nor are the instructors in these groups omniscient to be able to avoid bad apples getting in. And of course there's no pedigree that can guarantee the intentions of those in charge any particular group either.

As for:

"... now I understand why. Aleister Crowley and other left hand path occultists are big on training the will. It is the only way to break away from the "tyranny of divinity" and take power into one's own (ego's) hands."

Which I'm not sure is from Montalk or part the quoted material, Crowley did not consider himself a Left-Hander and the "Will" he refers to is most definitely not the Ego, it's what someone more sypathetic to christianity might have called one's "vocation". He in fact equates the Ego with the demiurge, considering it the tyrant of the microcosm. The personification of the demiurge in AC's Aethyr visions (CHORONZON) is considered "the devil of dispersion" and acts very much like one's own chatterbox brain that won't let one meditate; evoking random image after random image to distract, distort and delay.

An entire thread could in fact be made around the concept of "will" and "Will"; The thelemic definition, the nietzschian definition, the nietzschian definition as distorted by the nazis, and how they all relate to the ego.

The exersises that Bardon, Butler and Crowley prescribe are meant to gain the necessary "control" (without negative connotations) over the flow and ebb of conciousness. I don't think politically correct sanitation of terms will help. First, it has to be done every few years as pop culture changes, producing a newspeak-like distortion of meaning effect in the populace. Second, if I want to quiet my personal demiurge I will aspire to such control without considering it STS. At least not more STS than aspiring to fresh air or nutritious food.

The dangers of Ego-inflation are present in any spiritual quest and the subject is widely treated in magickal literature. Constant self-observation (diaries are always suggested in these books) and a decent dose of self-effacing humor are always a good idea. And as for the "entities" (my vote is still out as to what really happens) encountered, there are ways of testing them that are rarely employed by channelers.

No source should be your exclusive source, that's a restriction that limits both growth possibilities and capacity for discernment. The fact that there have been many who have used these techniques for bad intentions shouldn't scare one off of the reading , knowledge and experimentation any more than the plethora of fake channelers and parasites should scare one off looking through material.

Raised an atheist I have often found myself instinctively on better moral footing than many religious types. You get out what you put in, they say, and if one has only greed, fear and anger to put in the magick can only come out black, be their technique that of Yoga, Magick, Fourth Way, Christian Science, whatever. It's all magick and WE color it.

First post in a thread and rambling already.. oh, well.

Love is the law, love under will.

Love is the law, love under will.
   
     Zejith Themis
      .:420-510:.
    FIAT IUSTITIA
    RUAT COELUM

Re: Franz Bardon on hermetic wisdom and magick

Thank you for this, Zejith Themis.  You have pointed out many of the subtlties which
confuse seekers in the work.  And your final statement about getting out only what
you put in is an excellent warning.

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Re: Franz Bardon on hermetic wisdom and magick

Original link to download is not working, can someone provide another link or will anyone send me the file?

Re: Franz Bardon on hermetic wisdom and magick

Here is the fixed link.

Acquiring fringe knowledge is like digging for diamonds in a mine field.

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Re: Franz Bardon on hermetic wisdom and magick

Thanks TM