I realise that those arguments were invalid now, and as Montalk has elucidated, the real merit to the idea is in not rationalising the inhuman behavious of a certain few, by assuming that we are all 'made of the same stuff'.

I have no problem with admitting my arguments were wrong lyra, but you do not seem capable of realising your undue hostility, and the very fact that you feel it necessary to go on the defensive, when I am only presenting arguments and asking for guidance. Anway, looking forward to some new threads!

Now I'll probably be banned from here again

Thanks, this would explain why your posts showed the same line of logical fallacies and covert hostility as another member I once had to ban:

AZ1 IP:  137.99.146.8  = d146h8.resnet.uconn.edu

IlikeIcke IP: 137.99.147.125 =  d147h125.resnet.uconn.edu

I banned IlikeIcke the first time because he was relentlessly using fallacies of logic, misquoting people, making excuses and rationalizations, and responding to logical arguments with emotional melodramatics. See this thread:

http://montalk.net/forum/viewtopic.php?id=35&p=1

Noble Realms is an open forum. People are free to disagree with me, and likewise I am free to disagree with them. I can even disagree with their disagreement, and they in turn with my rebuttal -- this is progressive as long as logical reasons are given on both sides. The problem happens when one side debates on logical grounds, and the other side throws an emotional fit and resorts to logical fallacies, arguing against the words they put in the mouths of others, expressing indignation at being offended rather than intelligently debating the point, etc...

Look, one of the requirements for being on this forum is sincerity and integrity. To be banned for lacking these and then rejoining under a different name only to carry on the same histrionics is further proof of same. I invite open debate, but it's not a debate when the opposing viewpoint resorts to deceptive and fallacious tactics.

I'm not the only one who notices this as obviously Lethos feels the same way

...gathering up whatever people you have around you at the moment to back you up and gang up....

Lethos made remarks that were flat out incorrect.  It wasn't the "intuition/belief/opinion that "didn't count" or was "wrong", as you claim, but the facts themselves.   Actual facts.  Not "beliefs."     He / she claimed that the montalk materials said **everybody** is an OP, and **nobody** can be trusted.  This isn't true.

Sorry you feel that way.   

Straw man fallacy.  Bringing up unrelated threads and things I said on unrelated threads which you can knock down in order to prove your argument on this thread.  Bad logic.

People usually have to say that when they're about to act anything but.

I'm not cordial when people a)  Don't read my posts and then turn around misquote me;  b)  Get facts wrong and make unfounded accusations, against me or anybody.  Sure, others might be more patient with that, I however am not.

Anybody is free to go back and re-read your post which I repsonded to which caused this ruckus.   You put words in my mouth, and attributed beliefs to me which I do not have.   I corrected you and now you're all in a huff.   

For reminder purposes, here is what you said incorrectly about me, which I had really no choice but to correct you on, which you're now in a huff about:

My response to this:

Then you said:

And my response to this:

Lethos didn't "disagree" with the material.  He came on here throwing around things that were flat out incorrect about the material.   To cut and paste from above:   "He / she claimed that the montalk materials said **everybody** is an OP, and **nobody** can be trusted.  This isn't true."  Funny how you twist this around now to claim that I'm attacking him for having a belief.   I called him on the fact that he was making incorrect statements about the montalk material.   

This is a standard response when it's shown that someone has made incorrect statements, is called on it, and now doesn't want to admit it and instead just flips out, blows their top and gets all emotional.   

I have examined it.  Please see above responses.   

More exaggerated histrionic dramatics on your part.  You can believe what you want to believe though.   

More exaggerated histrionic dramatics.

More dramatics.  I would think you would have been exhausted by this point in your post from all this drama.

Am I?   Considering I never use that word that's pretty interesting.  Interesting indeed.   And you can use the search function to verify that one.

Again?   Reeeeaaaly!     Sounds like you've been posting under multiple names then?  You were someone that Montalk banned once before and have come back on here with the same old script as before......?      ?   

I think things are starting to become a little clearer!   This explains the dramatic histrionics.  It's not about this.  It's about past problems.

More dramatic histrionics.  Really, you should be quite exhausted by this point. 

You're free to leave.  Why you're still here, after you admit to already being banned once, and after claiming that this forum is as ignorant and childish as any other religious group is beyond me.    It's about as logical as your entire response.

Actually I went into the material very thoroughly lyra,

I disagree, because your opening post reflects otherwise.  There's no way you could have read the material thoroughly and yet still walk away thinking that the Montalk material has claimed that **everybody** is an OP, **your family** is an OP, **you** are an OP, **nobody can be trusted** etc. etc.   Nowhere in the material is this either said, or insinuated. 

If I'm supposed to feel guilty now, I don't.   Your opening post put us here on the defensive demanding for us to explain how we "justify" ourselves with these beliefs, throwing around false claims about the material here.   I call you on this, and now your feelings are hurt...?    Sorry, you can't turn this around on me now.   If you don't want a defensive reaction, then don't come on in such an accusatory way, and make sure you have all the facts correct before you start blasting something.   If not, then be prepared for somebody to come back at you just as strongly as you came at them.  You can't pick the fight and then get hurt feelings.  That's ridiculous.

With that said, I think I'm going to take the weekend off from posting.   Too much childish stuff like this getting on my nerves.  I need a break or something.

Unfortunately, since you do not show the same reticence when it is somebody else’s opinion, I have been compelled to respond.  As usual, anybody who disagrees with the Cassiopean material or OP theory etc. is berated by you and the brood every time they try to voice their opinions here.  I just don't have the time or energy to deal with such stubbornness, so I stop replying, you however, seem to enjoy tit for tat hostile semi-debate.  I suggest you really examine your manner, because you are not seeing it as others do.

Every time I and like-minded people have discussed how we do not believe in the Cassiopean material or such, there is a mutual effort to hijack the thread and break up any chance we may have for real communication of our ideas.  Maybe there should be a new disclaimer on this board saying that people here are not allowed to discuss their feelings about anything that montalk and lyra and company have been duped by, because you sure take it personally and act with very much hostility when such opinions are expressed.  The hostility is there, before Lethos noticed it in your words and your tone, I had surely noticed and dealt with it before myself.  Deny it, justify it, do whatever you like.  You're quite good at being outraged. 

Now I'll probably be banned from here again, and of course be labeled as "blowing up" or possibly even an 'OP' or maybe even a shape shifter attempting to destroy the forum, as this is what usually goes with anybody here that disagrees with your ridiculous minutia and ad-hoc, simplistic rapid fire responses.  Just don’t kid yourselves; you sometimes act as ignorant and childish as any other rigid religious group.

And yes you have revealed a flaw in my reasoning, my impulse response to the material was to assume the worst about everyone,

Actually I went into the material very thoroughly lyra, and that was genuinely how I reacted, with a 'trust no one' impulse. I find your approach hurtful and presumptuous.

Thanks Montalk, funny thing is, I found it effortless to give for a couple of days after the win, I gave away hundreds and it felt wonderfully liberating. But then it was like something wore off and I started to get worried that my needs were greater than theirs and that I was going to suffer if I didn't miserishly hold onto it all.

  Lethos,

I know what you mean about the term 'OP' being thrown around here a bit too often.

Thrown around "here" a bit too often?   Really?   By who?  When?   Considering the amount of topics going on this forum, and the number of posts, (8,000+ and counting) this subject rarely ever comes up.   Not sure what you're referring to.  Sounds to me like you're confused with some other forum.  Maybe the Cass forums?

Again...............who?!?     I would almost bet my life that nobody here has ever "declared so emphatically that such and such a person is an OP."   So what's with all this exaggerated drama?   Honestly, if you want to see people tossing around the term OP as much as you just said, then visit the Cass forums.  Laura and Ark believe everybody is an OP and label their own QFS members as such, accusing members' spouses and significant others of being OP's, trying to break up relationships, and causing everybody there to have to walk on eggshells at all times and follow along obediently with everything L & A do and say, for fear of being labeled an "OP" and being kicked out of the group and harrassed.   There are former Cass members here on this forum who can attest to this.  It's the way it is over there.  They have witch hunts, with chunks of the group ganging up on an individual poster and harrassing them, accusing them of being an OP, or Vincent Bridges, or an agent of sorts.  Laura contacts members off the board, gossiping about the other posters, asking her clique members to analyze the suspect posters, then posting derogatory stuff about them on the main forum for all the public to see.    I mean, holy cow, the Montalk forum is nothing like that, so please don't try to make it out to be with all that exaggerated drama like you just did.  People can actually post freely here without worry of being labeled or having a witch hunt set up against them.     

Loosly?   How about I don't "throw it around" at all.  Period.   I did clearly state that.  I never use the term in my personal life.   Please go back and re-read my post if necessary for clarification.

Right.  And again, I never use the term in my personal life.   

I don't label anybody that way.  Once again.  So, I don't know what you're referring to.

Is Mercury in retrograde or something?  I'm wondering?  Because it's like the last two days people aren't reading what I'm saying.   I clearly state something, and it's overlooked, I'm misquoted, or I have words put in my mouth.  Then I spend a lot of time retreading over old ground, and over and over, repeating what I've already said but which was missed because some people obviously aren't reading the posts.

I should also clarify that the "organic portal" idea originates with the work of Boris Mouravieff and the Cassiopaean transcripts, has close parallels to what has been written by Dion Fortune and John Baines, and is found in various incarnations in folklore, mythology, and inner teachings the world over. So this isn't necessarily a psychological projection phenomenon to rationalize one individual's feelings of alienation, rather it is an interpretation of a phenomenon valid enough to be interpeted by multiple others in similar ways over the centuries and millennia.

Maybe if you inspire that person in the right way (like we were talking about on the teaching thread) they will start to learn that empathy and a peaceful way of living are desirable, or at least begin to explore their psyche/soul.  I know this is possible even for the most selfish, ego-driven, eidolon because years ago I was like that, and slowly I started to discover more and more of my inner being.

Ah, but there's the rub. You see, the difference between an OP and an asleep souled person is that the latter has the potential to awaken while the first does not. This is because in theory, the higher chakras of OPs are missing while, in asleep souled people, they are merely dormant. You can awaken what's dormant, but not what is nonexistent. For example, take into account two people who are "selfish, ego-driven, eidelons" -- one could be an OP, the other an asleep souled person, as both categories can have generally identical behavioral traits due to both operating solely upon the lower chakras. [There will still be some subtle differences between them, having to do with the presence of karma, past life imprints, higher-self, destiny, fate, potential for synchronicity, and a unique soul signature in the souled but asleep person - things that are  largely missing in an OP. But these differences are too subtle to detect by the casual observer]. My point is, despite both having basically identical behavioral traits, just because the souled-asleep person can awaken does not mean the OP can awaken. Identical behavior does not equate to identical potential.

One of the most useful aspects of the organic portal theory, at least for me, is that it helps explain cases in which someone acts sharply contrary to how anyone with even a drop of self-awareness and empathy would act. People who don't know about the OP theory and assume everyone is the same on the inside and the same in potential are dumfounded by certain individuals who are most fundamentally different in potential and cosmological purpose. These people either end up hating humanity by blaming the whole for what is natural to only a part, or end up being too forgiving to psychopathic behavior by rationalizing that there must be a heart beneath the shallow surface. Either way is a loss, and therefore it is wiser to consider that some people have heart and some do not, each acting in accordance with their own physical and metaphysical makeup.

The reason I ever even investigated the OP idea and its predecessor theories is that I encountered people whose behaviors made no sense on the assumption they were like me - meaning, that if I were in their shoes and experienced what they experienced in life, I would STILL not act that way. That points to a fundamental difference between the core of me and core of them, one that transcends physical factors like environment or genetics. Here I'm talking about psychopathic, empty, fake-emotional, and manipulative behavior - in addition to the more subtle metaphysical aspects like soul vibe and presence behind the eyes or lack thereof. I'm also talking about those who cannot in any way be awakened, who have no interest in anything other than the most mundane 3D distractions and MCS goals - or for that matter, an inability to learn or grasp any of the basic lessons of life.

I reserve the possibility of "OP" only for those for whom there is no other explanation, for the extreme cases when even the possibility of "asleep but souled" no longer suffices. It is these cases which leave many shaking their heads, unable to account for and thus forced to rationalize away such characteristics. Knowing about the possibility of OPs does help keep you from tolerating certain abusive behavior longer than necessary on the assumption that the person can be changed one day or has a good heart despite all signs pointing otherwise. If the OP theory is unrealistic in its proposal that some people cannot awaken in this current cycle of evolution, then there shouldn't be so many people who are sharply and uncannily opaque to even the most basic truths that transcend the boundaries of MCS-programmed existence.

But I agree this subject is a double-edged sword, that without discernment you're damned-if-you-do and damned-if-you-don't know about the OP theory. That's why overall, I think time is better spent looking for those who are clearly souled and able to awaken, namely those who are on a resonant vibratory level to your own. Do that, and there's no possibility or need for prejudice or "OP spotting" since you are acting constructively instead of suspiciously.

I know what you mean about the term 'OP' being thrown around here a bit too often.  It scares me because some people here declare so emphatically that such and such a person is an ‘OP.’ It scares me because according to the description of an OP, I have to admit that even I have exhibited some of those qualities at times, and when examining their origin, I definitely do not trace them back to my being a hollow vacuous shell; rather, I have succumbed to momentary immaturity.  Incidentally, has anybody else here felt for the past year or so that they are harshly swinging back and forth upon the pendulum of love and hate.  I go from moments of truly divine being- when I feel a tremendous love for humanity and a oneness that I can only describe as divine (approaching mystical)- and yet just hours later I am in a spiral of ego, vice and appeasement of my carnal, selfish identity affirming self.  This battle within has been glaringly accentuated within the past year or so, and I was wondering if anybody else is experiencing this. 

Now, I do understand that there are some people that truly act in a vituperative manner, but to label them soul-less seems too extreme.  Perhaps I'm naive or idealistic, but I think the possibility of redemption and esoteric self exploration is possible for all when the right things happen.  Had I not been thrust into certain situations I would be a lot different now.  I dig what you're saying Lyra about wanting to avoid people that just drain your energy and cause strife within your life, and I understand that you do not throw around the term 'OP' loosely, but still, something about it seems so final, bound and categorical.  Maybe if you inspire that person in the right way (like we were talking about on the teaching thread) they will start to learn that empathy and a peaceful way of living are desirable, or at least begin to explore their psyche/soul.  I know this is possible even for the most selfish, ego-driven, eidolon because years ago I was like that, and slowly I started to discover more and more of my inner being.  But it took the right experiences to ignite that spark.  I'm not saying you should repeatedly waste energy trying to change someone that is invidious and causing detriment to your life, but to label them in such an ultimate way as the OP classification entails- one who will be soul-less forever, I guess that's where my hang-up lies.

For Internet Explorer, I'll install a new style for the forum (optional for members) that differs only in the text size. For now, go to your "profiles" area and select style "montalk1" or "montalk_vx_light" and click 'submit' -- these have larger fonts for now.

That's awesome about you winning $11k - if you wish, spare a hundred dollars of this for when you see someone in need. For example, 5 dollars to every needy homeless person that asks you for change. It's worth a lot more to them, and you also keep the flow going.

Alright, as for the organic portals subject, I came up to that viewpoint after years of trying to piece things together myself. In other words, first I had the experiences, then the theory. When I observed something that didn't fit the theory, I modified the theory. So it went through several incarnations until the "organic portal" idea eventually accounted for everything I and others had personally experienced.

As Lyra explained, there's nothing in the theory that says everyone is an organic portal. Actually, I do recall some Cass people of late proposing the idea that we're all organic portals and must try to grow a soul before we can consider ourselves human, but I think that's a type of "metaphysical correctness" that uses the same fallacies of logic and ethics as political correctness. So, the idea that we are all organic portals is not my own, and you won't find that proposal on montalk.net. One thing I keep encountering with the OP subject is people arguing against stuff that was never said, or stuff taken out of context.

Anyway, I recommend reading the articles in full and taking into account all the caveats and exceptions listed in them, all the advice given on what works and what doesn't. Here are the two on my site:

http://www.montalk.net/matrix/60/organic-portals-part-i

http://www.montalk.net/matrix/61/organi … ls-part-ii

http://www.montalk.net/matrix/62/matrix … sis-part-i

http://www.montalk.net/matrix/63/matrix … is-part-ii

And also check out some of the source material for these:
http://www.montalk.net/opsources.pdf

Woah lyra, I'm sensing some unecessary hostility,

Hostility?  No.  Annoyance?  Yes.  Why?  Because you came on here to challenge something when you haven't even read the material and were misinformed.   That's a little annoying, to me anyway.    So was my response unnecessary?  No. 

But half of your post was in fact, a challenge.  Challenges based on incorrect information.   You can't sugar coat that now.   

It wasn't an impulse response.   It was just flat out not reading the material. 

Right, and again, the material never said "everyone is hollow."   

Well then it was definitely an nteresting word choice, because justification is again, a negative loaded word, implying that people are wrong and need to explain themselves.

Absolutely.

The Cass website....the Montalk website....apples and orange.  While your statement is certainly true in some instances.....I'd have to say that for me personally, it does apply to the Laura Jadczyk material....it's definately not true for all material.  So I'm not sure what your point is here.

Digressing from OPs, it strikes me that a lot of seeker type material (pointing to cass for example) is arduously long and convoluted, which I feel may be a psychological tactic to batter the reader into submission.

Having said that, I find the material on OPs deeply disturbing, and it would seem conducive to fear, paranoia, isolation and discrimination, all of which are very negative.

Well I don't see it that way at all.   My knowledge of these types of people hasn't made me fearful or paranoid, and, I don't discriminate.   Instead, I have the knowledge -- as well as personal proof from personal experience -- that there happen to be sociopaths and "empty shells" walking around in the world, and I use that knowledge to navigate my way through social interactions.

Example:

I find myself being sucked into a nonsensical argument with someone who isn't acting right.   I recognize the situation for what it is - a nonsensical argument with someone who isn't right, and it's going to drain my energy and waste my time - and then I sidestep it.   Bye bye!   I don't play along, or get sucked in, as most people would who are uninformed.  Most people are half asleep at the wheel and don't think before emotionally reacting to the world around them.   Knowledge of "OP's", sociopaths, empty shells, whatever you choose to call them, causes one to hopefully be more alert to these things.   You don't have to go around labeling everybody.  Just learn to recognize screwball behavior which sucks your energy, time and resources.

And on the discrimination note, I personally don't go around labeling anybody an "OP".  I helped write an article about it but personally don't like the term and never use it.   If someone is acting like a nutty screwball, or is cold and manipulative, or emotionally unstable, there could be any number of reasons for this, one of which might be "OP".   But we have no way to know for certain, and all we *do* know is that it's not someone we should be interacting with.  Bye bye!   That's not "discrimination."  That's being smart.   To continue to interact with negative,  manipulative, sociopathic people is foolish, period. 

Untestable?  All you have to do is open your eyes and look around at the world.  If you've never met anybody, ever, at any point in your life who fits your above description then I think we must be living on two different planets.   Can I come to your planet??  It sounds nicer than mine!

First off, I'm not sure in what context you mean by "machines"/OPs" sacrificing.  Could you give an example for clarification?  An example of an OP sacrificing something?     

Secondly, yes people make sacrifices every day, including your family......but who said that those people are "OP's" ?   Nobody said your family members were OPs.  You're basically saying that the Montalk material has claimed that everybody on the planet is an OP, which the articles have never done, and then, are challenging this by finding exceptions to the "rule", such as your family, etc.   So your statement is bad logic, incorrect and makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.    

Nobody has ever said that "EVERYONE", including your family, is an OP.  Where did you come up with that?  Have you actually read any of the material on OPs?   It doesn't sound like it.   

And.....What does this have to do with anything?  Again, nobody said that "everybody in the world is incapable of discussing spiritual matters."    But I can say that for me personally, I *have* encountered people who were incapable of discussing such stuff.   But to clarify, this doesn't mean they're an "OP", and the Montalk material has never tried to hint at such a thing. 

"Justify" is a loaded word implying that we're in the wrong and have to continually find ways to prove something which is false.   Fact:  There are people walking around in the world who act in ways so as to drain my personal energy and my valuable time.  It has happened, and probably will continue to happen, as long as I'm alive.  This doesn't need "justification", it just IS.

Eyeglasses?   

By the way, there have already been several threads devoted to the topic of "Organic Portals" here at NR.    You should probably do a search on the forum using the "Search" function to find the relevant threads which might be of help.