anyway i agree with the following and have always felt it true, about imagination in general:

"There is no such thing as vicarious role playing or fantasy.  Everything spends the creative forces and creates physical, astral and mental forms.   The only thing in question is the quality and volume of those forms. "

I felt it as a spooky sense of absolute sureness as a child; but submit that it is nothing to fear! Why should it be more than any other aspect of existence or creativity? so everything is linked and every action is magical... the problem is?

pamela:
you say yes... I don't get it, are you therefore afraid to read, do you have a list of banned books or such?

Example: i'm reading your post, but not getting onto your trip; maybe i've been manipulated into responding but it's willful interaction. I want to know where your fear respect to these things comes from.

What do you mean by we're not talking shoots and ladders? I mean you are more constrained to rigid rules of another's creation there, no? What DO you think goes on in one of these RP game sessions?

I mean i played and refereed, and the world building was always a collaborative thing amongst all the players... you make it sound so scary and i can't get why.

i DID read your posts.. and am posing the question, where do you get the fact that one deserts their mind, that these things ARE ouija boards and how they bridge those evil dimensions.

you state:  "When you play a game you agreeing to leave yourself open, "to win" of course."

but there's no agreements, and no "win" objective in RPG's!    do you know how the games actually work?

and then :

"How is it great use of your mind to involve yourself in a game of devastation and destruction which is being guided by another entity? "

i explained the use of the mind involved and i'm sure you read it just fine.

what other entity? what devastation and destrution?

folks who wanted that we redirected to video games...   we were into the role playing.    a couple went on to try fiction writing (haven't heard of any bestsellers yet). You seem to assume that we must all be around a table imagining gore and who knows what wile chanting weird stuff... or.... well...

...well i don't know what you're imagining but based on what you're saying here but i assume it's a very far cry from what actually goes on!

Just sayin'...

and anyway it was "I also have experience dealing with coke and heroin addicts"... friends i saw go downhill, not all of them pulled out well; not pleasant experiences, so back off being silly like that.

I followed a couple of ZTs links from a thread a few months back and read some of Crowley's work.  I don't remember what they were called but i tired of his dismissals of the straw men he'd constructed from older religious writings.   I was put off by it.  I was hoping on the AC and rock and roll thread ZT might have let AC speak for himself by quoting him more than he quoted others.  We could then have responded to the horses mouth and it would have made for a great excursion. 

The 'Monad' is the immortal spirit individualised as/for each of us.  A fractal of the whole, the I AM Presence is the identical creation of the ALL [ "made in our image"] that Jesus called "The Father".

There's a big difference between the symbols in the tarot and the gratuitous astral sewer of other said 'games'.   Read "Numerology and the Divine Triangle" by Faith Javane and Dusty Bunker for insightfull spiritual descriptions of the Major Arcana etc. 

We all come to different conclusions in life about what is sewage and what is the crystal clear stream.   As in water, so in consciousness.   A person must have some realisation of the clear stream to realise when it is being adulterated and by what.   Thou shalt not commit "adultery."  Thou shalt not "adulterate" the flow if thou wouldst know source.  If psychic sauce is the spice of life then the crystal [christ- all] clarity of spiritual discernment can be eclipsed from view.  This can apply to anyone at any time depending on what the mind engages.  There is no such thing as vicarious role playing or fantasy.  Everything spends the creative forces and creates physical, astral and mental forms.   The only thing in question is the quality and volume of those forms.   Quality is always arguable depending on perspective.  But it is not relative.  True humility recognises a superior perspective and judges the value and quality of life forms accordingly.  That accord is realised in stages by separating the sewage from the water.  For that process to happen we must know the difference.   There is a difference.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Wow!  That's great Nexus.  The unicorn, horse and ox.  Words, action and thought.  They are very important and you mention quality.  I'm studying archaic, ancient and mediaevel material, but Prov. 20:25 has me.  So I fit what I learn into that I first visited.

I copied this down years ago because I liked it.

In the "Vedas" and the older laws of Manu -- we find many magical rites practiced and permitted by the Brahmans.  Thibet, Japan, and China teach in the present age that which was taught by the oldest Chaldeans.  The clergy of these respective countries, prove moreover what they teach, namely:  "that the practice of moral and physical purity, and of certain austerities, developes the vital soul-power of self-illumination.  Affording to man the control over his own immortal spirit, it gives him truly magical powers over the elementary spirits inferior to himself."  "Isis Unveiled."  didn't note vol. or page so I'd have to look for it.

I think it is possible that what makes the shackles rise, or what might look like anger, arise in Zejith_Themis is people who seem to tell other people what is proper and improper to put attention to.  I'm starting to get the idea that most of the hells are actually spheres of existence higher than this one we currently find ourselves.  I also think it is possible to put ourselves in place worse than the one we currently find ourselves.  I'm sure that Zejith_Themis knows more of the teachings of Aleister Crowley than your average dauntles explorer in these things.  I don't believe AC had anything to do with human sacrifice, and where he makes reference to Satan, I think that is of more or less importance.  I've seen where Satan is mentioned in writings even older than the Pentateuch, and that Christianity might be using the name possibly to make use of archetypes, i.e. do not fall toward satan away from Christ, but also do not veer away from Satan going too far toward Lucifer.

Sorry, I'm really doing this on the wrong thread, but I built up momentum and might as well keep going.  With the little I know so far of Aleister Crowley, I think his flaw is in interpretation of Democritus:

"Let us turn now to the Latin poet Lucretius. Lucretius has been greatly misunderstood in modern times. He was a disciple of the Greek philosopher, Democritus, or rather, perhaps, of that other Greek atomistic philosopher, Epicurus, who was a follower of the Democritan atomistic system. In connexion with the latter name, the very adjective, 'epicurean,' in our modern ears, rings unpleasantly. To Europeans it seems to signify a man or a woman who follows naught but pleasure, making that an end in life. But this misunderstanding is downright unfair. These men were two really great thinkers, who, one may say in passing, actually laid the foundation of the modern scientific doctrine of the atomic structure of the material world.

From their theories, only a few hundred years ago European chemists and physicists obtained the fundamental ideas of modern physical chemistry; and the latter even adopted the early Greek exoteric meaning of the word 'atom' -- which, of course, is from the Greek -- as signifying an indivisible, something that can no longer be divided: although since the most recent discoveries of physical chemistry, it is known that the atom is indeed a true divisible. These early European chemists did not understand what those two men, Democritus and Epicurus, who were really great in their way, actually meant. They meant indivisibles, as the Greek word 'atom' itself shows, as signifying that which cannot be cut or divided. In other words, Democritus and Epicurus and their early School meant precisely, although in physical-astral relations, what the Theosophist calls Monads. It is quite likely, indeed probable, that Democritus taught a Monadism identic with that taught by the Esoteric Tradition. They indeed taught Monadism -- the existence of spiritual consciousness-centers, spiritual Individuals; and they have been misinterpreted as teaching the existence -- as earlier European chemists did -- of little hard round bodies, incompressible and virtually eternal, which until very recently were supposed to be indivisible, and moreover the ultimates or originals of matter.

Lucretius, then, in his noble poem, De rerum natura ('On the Nature of Things'), most eloquently describes the Democritan and Epicurean system of philosophy. A few citations are hereinunder given:

I shall proceed to tell thee of the entire system of celestial things, and of the gods, and to unfold to thee the first principles of all things, from which Nature produces, develops, and sustains everything that is, and into which Nature again resolves all things at their dissolution: these first principles in explaining our theme we are accustomed to call matter, and the generating elements of things, and to call them the seeds of all things and to give to them the name of 'primary bodies,' because from them as primaries all later things are derivatives -- (119)
In other words, in all important points, this is a fair approach to the Theosophical doctrine of Monads ensouling Atoms.

And again:

Reason and the study of Nature must be the dispellers of the terrors and darknesses of the mind . . . of the human soul -- and our first philosophical principle is this, that NOTHING IS EVER DIVINELY PRODUCED FROM NOTHING. (120)
Somewhat later in the same first Book, he declared:

Furthermore, Nature resolves every single thing into its own fundamental elements, and DOES NOT REDUCE ANYTHING TO NOTHING.(121, 122)

If the reader be under the sway of European orthodox religious teaching, he might say readily enough that this ancient Roman Epicurean was teaching personal immortality; on the other hand, the Epicurean philosophy has been mistakenly supposed to teach that man is a bundle of physical atoms only, which bundle or aggregate falls to pieces when he dies; and that hedonism, or the doctrine of seeking mere pleasure in life, is a natural and logical outflowing consequent therefrom. But Lucretius did not teach either idea. He taught in this respect somewhat as the Theosophist holds: to wit, that the central spiritual core of man is an indivisible entity, an Atom, or indivisible Individuality, an indivisible consciousness-center, which expresses itself necessarily through lower atomic aggregates, inferior to it, because in no other wise can it have contact or contactual relations with this physical sphere."  The "Esoteric Tradition" by Gottfried de Purucker. vol. 1 ch. 9

What Epicurus and Democritus was talking about was our immortal Spirit.  Also known as Monad.

We all come to different conclusions in life about what is sewage and what is the crystal clear stream.   As in water, so in consciousness.   A person must have some realisation of the clear stream to realise when it is being adulterated and by what.   Thou shalt not commit "adultery."  Thou shalt not "adulterate" the flow if thou wouldst know source.  If psychic sauce is the spice of life then the crystal [christ- all] clarity of spiritual discernment can be eclipsed from view.  This can apply to anyone at any time depending on what the mind engages.  There is no such thing as vicarious role playing or fantasy.  Everything spends the creative forces and creates physical, astral and mental forms.   The only thing in question is the quality and volume of those forms.   Quality is always arguable depending on perspective.  But it is not relative.  True humility recognises a superior perspective and judges the value and quality of life forms accordingly.  That accord is realised in stages by separating the sewage from the water.  For that process to happen we must know the difference.   There is a difference.

OMFG you're RIGHT!

thank you, JESUS SAVES!!

rack up the demons and pass the d20... i'm gonna CRITICAL HIT FOR GAWD!!!!!

lolz

seriously, Pam: "Anything, and I mean anything designed to guide your thoughts into another's agenda is a risk,"

like reading a book? or a website? or scary postings in the internets telling people games without gameboards are the devil's recruiting office?

it's true, when you abandon your mind, crap takes over. I also have experience dealing with coke and heroin addicts, i too have seen real demons.

all this silliness about occultism being evil, and creativity being evil irks me; it's more bars in the prison, not a way out.

and from how you talk about these games may i suppose you've never looked at a rulebook or seen people at play?

Besides of the illustrations in the Chick Tract "DARK DUNGEONS", of course?

Many of the ancient scriptures look upon some of these hells or describe some of these hells to be quite the reverse of what the average Christian of mediaeval European times regarded as the theological 'Hell' of his religious guides. Some of the hells in the Brahmanical or Buddhistic scriptures, are, judging by the mystical descriptions of them, quite pleasant places!

It should be noted, furthermore, that the general term or name or appellation for the vast multitudes or armies of beings, semi-conscious, conscious, and self-conscious, inhabiting the worlds or spheres superior in ethereality or spirituality to earth-life, is 'Devas' -- to employ a name commonly used in Hindu writings; and the same term is properly given, therefore, to those classes of self-conscious beings, who, springing forth from the spiritual ranges of life as their fountain-head, under the evolutionary urge make the 'descent' into the lower spheres for the purpose of gaining experience. Such a family, in consequence of the foregoing, is the human family, which, strictly speaking, is therefore a hierarchy, or compact group, or aggregate of devas. Yet the human family is not the only hierarchy of devas.

The importance of this observation will be seen and felt immediately by every student of ancient lore who is acquainted with the usage of this word 'deva' in Buddhist and Brahmanical literatures. Thus, for instance, when it is stated that there are four general divisions or great groups of devas, living in spheres or realms of ethereality or spirituality superior to that of earth-life, the reference here, as any student of the Esoteric Tradition can plainly see, is to the four cosmic planes just above the plane on which our planet Terra is, and therefore has direct and specific reference to the six globes of our Earth's planetary chain superior to this globe, Earth. (61) This fact, alone, sheds a brilliant meaning upon the inner significance of much in the ancient Hindu scriptures, for instance where the Devas are shown under certain conditions to be in strait union with, and in more or less close association with, the human sub-hierarchy or family.

Section III

Satan came to realize that sex, drugs and rock and roll couldn't reach every type of person. That's why he got Lucifer to create games like D&D AND MAGIC:To lure the nerds into hell!!!

played D&D over 10 years... no "psychic sewer" there. where you foks get this junk?

i am always amazed at the capacity for people to judge and define things they are ignorant of.

"When you desert your mind, others take it."

RPG's, the real pen-paper-dice and people variety, actually had us making GREAT use of the mind:

math, imagination, dialectic and narrating, learning history, mythlogy and learning to view the point of view of the OTHER, realising the validity of roles, or personae, other than our own little daily boxes.

Sounds like something TPTB would REALLY hate.

and they did and do.

This thread sounds a bit like the fundies trying to revive the '80's satanic panic and B.S. like the Chick Tracts.

"D & D, Magic and the rest ARE Ouija Boards"

YOU win first prize in the absurd statement category. Your Prestigious Gold Tapir will be arriving in the mail.

Seriously, any of the fire and brimstone crew here TRIED or actually examined these things before writing drivel?

Or is everyone on the cut-and paste from sensationalist trash kick?

Every time i look in here recently i catch more and more of this stuff (and return less and less)

Stealth-Fundie Trolling PsyOps? or just your friendly neighborhood "concerned citizens" who lap up all the paranoid BS they find (as long as it ties in with their aesthetic and personal fears)?

</rant off>
seriously, i've seen friend's siblings all over the Magic card game...

Magic Cards: it's drivel and a waste of time confronting statistics, a "trump game". It's got mnemonics and that's about it.

Ouija... never tried, no opinion, and refuse to make other's opinions my own. (try that last bit sometime y'all, eh?)

D&D and other FRPGs: fun, creative, social. about as dangerous as any other fun, creative, social activity.

Tarot: alwways berates me like a scolding nanny. has always shown good advice, whether i followed it or not.

The world of creativity (and magick) is like a mirror, wherein he who sees muck, is muck.

While "satan disguises himself as an angel of light",  angels of light also present themselves as 'angels of light' and in some cases as human beings at times when they would have us "entertain angels 'unawares'."   I don't see any harm in that contact.  The key is personal discernment so we can tell the difference between the poser and the real deal.

It is told by disciples who witnessed it [and later recorded] that Jesus met with Elijah and Moses on the 'mount of transfiguration' ... both "dead men" to put it more crudely than it was.  They were obviously much more than dead men standing there in their light bodies.  Just because a book records this encounter doesn't mean we are now apprised of the full extent of the phoenomena.  There are many more such beings of light [spirits] some who never took on physical bodies and some who have and have then transcended them forever.   Perhaps even Elijah and Moses, both advanced souls, were then in a higher spiritual state in between incarnations and later took on physical bodies again to help us out some more. 

But i digress a bit by going into that and i understand for a christian it is an arguable point.  Point is that the communion between our souls and true beings of light [Jesus included who is fully at one with the spirit] is beneficial and lawful.  These spiritual beings are willing to commune with us and they don't need a ouija board for that.  So i agree the ouija is dangerous because it draws the mischievous lower entities.  I would hesitate to call these lower beings "spirits" because they have no spiritual realisation and their intentions are no good.  I guess they're translated as "spirits" in the scripture simply because they are "non- physical" beings.  But i'd say it is those lower "spirits" who the bible warns about not the spiritual beings who have a legitimate relationship with us and for whom it is lawful to communicate with incarnate souls.

I'd also take care with interpretations of words like "divination".  To 'divine' something is to discover it.  Could be the discovery of a sub- terranian stream of water or it could be the discovery of a subconcious stream of divine consciousness within self.  These can be "divined" by magnetic forces and by the "divine" consciousness of the soul.  One thing's for sure, the use of that word in the bible is going to mean specific practices in particular so i might be wary of lumping too much under a catchall word like "divination."  A legitimate 'divination' is going to relate to a personal discovery of something hidden [occult = hidden]. 

But that something doesn't have to be something evil or harmful...  neither does the process for it's discovery. ie. divination.   It would have been forbidden in the bible because it must have dealt [and still deals] with practices of a decidedly lower order than the "discovery" of the [hidden] divine inner- consciousness and the "discoveries" which the divine consciousness can make regarding the true [hidden] nature of things.  It is only through that discovery of higher consciousness, measure by measure, that we can 'divine' the true nature of anything else.  ie, the past, the present, the future, ... the true nature of mother nature and all beings within it.... anything.... including the inner discernment to know whether or not a "spirit" is safe to communicate with or not.

The point i make is that the biblical warning likely related to the dangers of practices similar to the ouija 'games' and other lower order practices.  We have to use our own discernment regarding which help and which harm.  If i communed with Elijah or Moses [or Jesus] would i be practicing the sin of communicating with the dead?  If i divined the future for my friend would i commit the sin of 'divination'?   If i divinely interpreted any one of the many signs and symbols in my waking or dreaming life do i commit the 'sin' of "divination? 

These warnings in scripture allow the christians to open the umbrella so wide that even the divinely ordained relationships are in danger of getting included in categories which already invoke superstition and fear.   ie.  The very mention of the word "occult" [which simply means "hidden from mundane view] is anathema to christians.  Ironically Jesus and paul spoke of "hidden" things and Jesus even intentionally hid certain truths in his teachings.  Which 'hidden thing' is a help and which is a hinderance is key and is obviously the motivation for ther biblical warning.   It is an important warning and aside from a few others it is usually only the christians who sound the alarm regarding the gross psychic garbage that pop culture feeds our children.  God bless you Phi Concept.

Warhammer fantasy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_ … _(setting)

http://www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLr … _Games.htm

Invented in 1993 by Richard Garfield, a veteran Dungeons & Dragons player, this card game has sold billions and has become an industry in itself. Players are considered to be wizards or sorcerers, and the cards are color-coded into five kinds of magic: red, blue, green, white, and black.

As in D&D, terms from the occult appear on various cards. Many cards also have images that are frightening, gruesome, violent, and bizarre, such as one with a warrior licking blood off a sword. Names of some of the cards and/or characters include: "Lord of the Pit," "Abomination," "Hell's Caretaker," "Psychic Venom," "Sorceress Queen," "Zombie Master," "Fallen Angel," "Sadistic Glee," "Soul Drinker," "Evil Presence," "Dark Ritual," and "Demonic Torment."

Unlike D&D, Magic is not a role-playing game, perhaps making it appear more innocent. It is a complex strategy game that attracts teenage boys and young men. However, many images are grisly and death-oriented, and occult terms and concepts are used on some cards. Playing the game introduces players to these images and concepts, desensitizing them to things that are dark and repulsive. The Bible forbids sorcery, but all players automatically assume the role of sorcerer using the five kinds of magic.

The Ouija Board was purchased and mass marketed by Parker Brothers in 1966. It is sold in toy stores and rests on the shelves of thousands of homes. The rectangular board is imprinted with the alphabet, numbers, and the words "yes" and "no". The players ask questions which are answered when the triangular pointer moves to letters or numbers on the board. It is sold as a game, but if it is a game, what is the objective? The objective is to receive answers from the board itself, even though few people believe that a piece of cardboard can give an answer.

Precursors of today's board were used in ancient Greece and Rome as a tool to contact departed spirits. The triangular device, called a "planchette," came to use in Europe in the 1800s. It originally had a pencil attached as a way to receive messages from the dead. The current Ouija Board was developed in the late 1800's by Elijah J. Bond. William Fuld later bought the patent from Bond, and his name still appears on the board. "Ouija" is the modern name based on the combination of the French word oui and the German word ja, both meaning "yes."

The board has been used to contact any type of spirit that the players may believe in, whether an angel, a spirit guide, a being from another dimension or planet, or the "Spirit of the Board." The use of the Ouija Board was responsible for the supposed contact of writer Jane Roberts with an entity calling himself Seth, which resulted in several books of Seth's occultic and New Age teachings being channeled by the late Roberts.

Many other examples of contact with unseen entities have been reported by users of the board. Since we are forbidden by the Bible to contact the dead or any spirits, the only spirit one might contact through the Board would be an evil spirit, a demon. If Satan disguises himself as an "angel of light" (2 Cor. 11:14, NIV), then it is not hard to believe that his demons may do the same. Why would it be difficult for a demon to disguise itself as a dead person, a helpful guide, or an angel? In fact, this would be an ideal way to deceive someone; we know that Satan is "a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44, NIV).

Harper's Encyclopedia of Mystical & Paranormal Experience, by Rosemary Ellen Guiley (Castle Books, 1991), defines the Ouija Board as a device "used for divination and by some as a means to contact spirits or entities," and as a way "to discover insight, wisdom, and self-truths and to communicate with discarnate beings" (p. 418). Although there are many instances when the players are moving the pointer or when nothing happens, it should be remembered that the Ouija Board was invented and designed specifically for spirit contact, not as a game. If you know that a piece of cardboard cannot answer questions, who are you expecting to answer you when you play this "game?"

The Bible forbids contact with spirits or with the dead and divination: Leviticus 19:26,31; 20:6; Deuteronomy 18:11; 14; 1 Samuel 28:11; 2 Kings 23:24; Isaiah 8:19; 19:1- 4; Zechariah 10:2.