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		<title><![CDATA[Noble Realms — The Declaration of Independence]]></title>
		<link>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?id=5901</link>
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		<description><![CDATA[The most recent posts in The Declaration of Independence.]]></description>
		<lastBuildDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2007 22:33:59 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: The Declaration of Independence]]></title>
			<link>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=66594#p66594</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>visavis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Druid, if this is so, then why?&nbsp; Why would (zionist?) Jewish actors, whether they are controlled as puppets or not, encourage the rights of American citizens - considering the zionist game plan?</p></blockquote></div><p>-----------------------------------------------------------------<br />They don&#039;t like the negative attention they are receiving due to the actions of President Bush.&nbsp; Also, I think the Jewish people are divided in a similar fashion to the rift right here in America.&nbsp; I&#039;m not going to attempt to describe what the liberal left is, nobody would agree with whatever I said.&nbsp; I think I will reserve the same right as regard to the consevative right.&nbsp; I&#039;m not going to give my opinion of what either one of them are.</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[null@example.com (Antaeus)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sun, 14 Oct 2007 22:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=66594#p66594</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: The Declaration of Independence]]></title>
			<link>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=66270#p66270</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>Druid, if this is so, then why?&nbsp; Why would (zionist?) Jewish actors, whether they are controlled as puppets or not, encourage the rights of American citizens - considering the zionist game plan?</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[null@example.com (visavis)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Mon, 08 Oct 2007 03:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=66270#p66270</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: The Declaration of Independence]]></title>
			<link>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=66016#p66016</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>did you notice that almost all of those comedians and actors in this reading of the declaration of independence are jews?&nbsp; &nbsp;Gibson is not of course, along with an asian woman.</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[null@example.com (druid)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:33:34 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=66016#p66016</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: The Declaration of Independence]]></title>
			<link>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=65972#p65972</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<div class="quotebox"><cite>druid wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Personally, I don&#039;t see the Declaration of&nbsp; Independence as a &quot;new spiritual revelation&quot;, but it gives a (masonic) structure for justice in and individual freedom in a (materialistic) society... </p><p>I do not think that patriotism and nationalism are good. Behind nationalism are non-sublimated sexual forces... In nationalist pride, there is something pervert. </p><p>What is good in this video is that people with a high visibility profile are standing up, and defend the US constitution that the Mad King George abolished... </p><p>I would defend the constitution from the attacks of Bush, but I do not see the Constitution as a high spiritual document...</p><p>...So we do not worship the document in idolatry, instead we recognize that the &quot;freedom thinking&quot; was a great and important step in the evolution of consciousness.</p></blockquote></div><p>I agree with all of this, Druid. To hallow anything as some kind of &quot;manna from God&quot; (you used the word idolatry, which is apt), only enslaves us more. If you simply look at the Declaration (and Constitution) as a statement of intent for the beginning of this country, then hold it up against our history and where we are now, it&#039;s obvious how far we&#039;ve veered from that. </p><p>On the other hand, maybe it was only ever pretty words to hypnotize the masses into doing what TPTB wanted and nothing more. If that&#039;s the case, good job. But if it was ever genuine and hopeful, then it&#039;s a good stick to measure by, maybe, for those people who&#039;ve never thought about these things before.</p><p>You never know what little thing will cause a person to wake up, and I&#039;m all for folks waking up. <img src="https://forum.noblerealms.org/img/smilies/smile.png" width="15" height="15" alt="smile" /></p><p>By the way, I had a professor in college who said that &quot;pursuit of happiness&quot; was code for pursuit of wealth and land...</p><p>Cheers</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[null@example.com (Falvion)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:25:15 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=65972#p65972</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: The Declaration of Independence]]></title>
			<link>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=65963#p65963</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>Personally, I don&#039;t see the Declaration of&nbsp; Independence as a &quot;new spiritual revelation&quot;, but it gives a (masonic) structure for justice in and individual freedom in a (materialistic) society. Freedom in every area of the world is not a good thing. Freedom should be in the cultural sphere, Brotherhood in economic life and Equality in the political sphere (according to the threefold social order imagined by Rudolf Steiner).</p><p>Some people believe that there were &quot;good rosicrucians&quot; at the origin of the foundation of the USA. </p><p>I think otherwise: It think that the USA have been prepared by &quot;rosicrucians&quot; to bear a heavy cross... the incarnation of Ahriman, which is not only an &quot;antichrist&quot;, but also the implementer of a &quot;new world order&quot; that is already culminating. This is all entangled with freemasonry. Freemasonry is a degenerate spiritual stream since it became speculative (when craftmasonry disappeared).</p><p>I do not think that patriotism and nationalism are good. Behind nationalism are non-sublimated sexual forces... In nationalist pride, there is something pervert. </p><p>What is good in this video is that people with a high visibility profile are standing up, and defend the US constitution that the Mad King George abolished. </p><p>I would defend the constitution from the attacks of Bush, but I do not see the Constitution as a high spiritual document. <br />Anthroposophist Jesaiah Ben Aharon wrote about the spiritual truths of the Constitution in his book &quot;America&#039;s Global Responsibility&quot; (read this to understand threefolding and the recent evolution of consciousness toward wholeness and global economic-ecologic-social change). I agree with what he says, because he shows the spiritual truths that lead to the writing of the Constitution. So we do not worship the document in idolatry, instead we recognize that the &quot;freedom thinking&quot; was a great and important step in the evolution of consciousness.</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[null@example.com (druid)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:42:13 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=65963#p65963</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: The Declaration of Independence]]></title>
			<link>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=65957#p65957</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>We are not like Jordan, to use an example.&nbsp; We are not 98% anything.&nbsp; We have within the American population, representatives of practically every nation.&nbsp; Now this can be a wonderful experiment with a beautiful result to it.&nbsp; If it does not work out that way, and anger and hatred are the rule due to some calamity or incident, I&#039;d rather not count solely on local authorities for containment. </p><p>We have had a President that locked up Japanese within internment camps.&nbsp; We have had a President who has totally shut down newspapers, radio and tv stations.&nbsp; We have had two Presidential administrations in a row that had communist agents on their payroll.&nbsp; We have had a political party that filled the federal register with so many laws and regulations that the size of federal government had to grow immensely to administrate all this.&nbsp; We have a political party that literally changed the way our government works by increasing the power of the Supreme Court.&nbsp; That is why they bicker over nominee&#039;s to the Supreme Court so violently now.&nbsp; We have a political party that tries to play this balancing act by promoting egalitarianism without violating individual liberties.&nbsp; They fail constantly.&nbsp; They abridge the First Amendment and cry about free speach.&nbsp; I guess they have mastered talking out of both sides of their mouth at the same time. </p><p>I don&#039;t look so much at morals because I see that they differ when you observe global cultures.&nbsp; I do watch for hypocracy. </p><p>I don&#039;t like having payroll taxed and then everything I purchase, with already taxed money, also taxed.&nbsp; This does not occur because we have our military involved in engagements now and then.&nbsp; It happens because the democrats have made it necessary that the federal government be extremely massive.&nbsp; THEY are the cause of a burden we do not want to bear anymore. </p><p>I&#039;d rather have some old reprobate assholes running the government than self proclaimed enlightened beings doing it.&nbsp; As a matter of fact, I don&#039;t really like any of our politicians and would rather our military ran things for a while.&nbsp; I have more regard for Admirals and Generals.</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[null@example.com (Antaeus)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:17:57 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=65957#p65957</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: The Declaration of Independence]]></title>
			<link>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=65946#p65946</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>If you haven&#039;t watched this video, you should. It isn&#039;t about the actors. <strong>It&#039;s about hearing these words spoken aloud--the spirit of the message offered in the words.</strong></p><p>Not everybody in this nation knows the hidden machinations of the governments in quite the way we here at NR and others like us do. Most people know something is wrong, but they can&#039;t say exactly what it is. They can point to a symptom here or there, but they can&#039;t see the whole picture. And truthfully, how many so-called patriotic Americans have actually read the Declaration for itself, much less thought about what the writers were saying in it? This little video seems to me to be a call to ordinary people to wake up and start to think about what&#039;s happening in the world.</p><p>Yes, many of the drafters of the Declaration (and the Constitution as well) were Freemasons, and they couched other agendas within its language. But they were responding also to the state of affairs in which they found themselves... which are not so utterly different from the times we are living in now. We have a little tyrant in office who has surreptitiously and gradually engineered an atmosphere conducive to military rule. &quot;Armies in our streets...&quot; We have been duped into giving up many of the rights we were assured by the Constitution, and more follow every day. And we all know how our little tyrant has abused us and our laws to go to war in Iraq--not to preserve democracy, but to conquer that nation for its natural resources--using fundamentalist, irrational language to create prejudice and hatred against an entire people to suit his own ends. Hell, we all suspect he and his ilk were really behind 9/11, and not the Arabs, who were used as scapegoats. And taxes... one of the key reasons we broke away from Great Britain... we&#039;re now in a more horrendous trap to our very own government than our &quot;forefathers&quot; could have imagined when they wrote the Declaration.</p><p>So, Visavis, I&#039;m pretty sure the actors weren&#039;t reading the Declaration aloud for King George... or were they?</p><p>The more things change, the more they stay the same...</p><p>Cheers</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[null@example.com (Falvion)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:29:59 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=65946#p65946</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: The Declaration of Independence]]></title>
			<link>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=65936#p65936</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>i put the declaration to music. it&#039;s shockingly relevant to our current situation in its principle. i don&#039;t know how to create links, so you can copy and paste:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;<a href="http://www.myspace.com/henryegloff">http://www.myspace.com/henryegloff</a></p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[null@example.com (henster)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 04:30:05 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=65936#p65936</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: The Declaration of Independence]]></title>
			<link>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=65926#p65926</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF ...</p><br /><br /><p>... WELL, WHAT, EXACTLY?<br />&nbsp; <br />The David Icke Newsletter Goes Out Over The Weekend</p><p> At least the American Declaration of Independence includes the word &#039;happiness&#039;. Usually it is never referred to by governments, nor seen as a legitimate desire. Indeed, the entire global system is designed to deny people states of happiness and bliss because they are not good for business or control. </p><p>&nbsp; To keep us in line and our spirit in traction they have to maintain us in varying degrees of unhappiness. I have observed in myself and others over the years that when we say we are &#039;happy&#039;, it is really a state of being less unhappy than usual. <br />&nbsp; <br />Most humans have never known happiness, only greater or lesser levels of unhappiness. I have experienced our natural state of bliss here and there and I can tell you that the word &#039;happiness&#039; does not even begin to suffice. It is a &#039;being&#039; where you are everything and everything is you. &#039;Happiness&#039;?, blimey. That is as nothing compared to this state of Infinite Awareness, Infinite &#039;Is-ness&#039;.&nbsp; <br />&nbsp; <br />And it is not something you &#039;pursue&#039;; it is something you are.<br />&nbsp; <br />Those forces that manipulate this collective reality are terrified that humanity will realise that it needs to stop pursuing and start to be. The carousel analogy is appropriate again here. How can we connect and communicate with that which is still and in a no-time state while we are hurtling around at breakneck-speed in frantic pursuit of everything?</p><br /><br /><p>TO SUBSCRIBE TO THE DAVID ICKE NEWSLETTER, GET IMMEDIATE ACCESS TO HIS FANTASTIC NEWSLETTER LIBRARY GOING BACK TO NOVEMBER 2005, AND SEE HOURS OF VIDEO FOOTAGE OF DAVID&#039;S INFORMATION, PLEASE CLICK HERE ...</p><p>I think the Declaration of Independence is a beautiful piece of literature.&nbsp; I just saw a synchronicity, in that when I came on-line and checked my email, the above was in there.&nbsp; Then the first thing i see on Montalk&#039;s NR is visavis&#039;s post.&nbsp; That is some coincidence!</p><p>I wonder what PhiConcept couldn&#039;t understand?&nbsp; I didn&#039;t go check the link visavis.&nbsp; I don&#039;t put a lot of weight to what Hollywood says concerning government policy.&nbsp; Nor do I put any weight to what Boulder, Coloradan&#039;s think either.&nbsp; Nor college professors or traitoress democrats.&nbsp; I don&#039;t oppress anybody and that is what democrats say I&#039;m doing.&nbsp; Hell wid &#039;em.</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[null@example.com (Antaeus)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:59:55 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=65926#p65926</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[Re: The Declaration of Independence]]></title>
			<link>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=65924#p65924</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#039;t understand a word of that jargon.&nbsp; Maybe because it doesn&#039;t matter.</p><p>Peace, PhiConcept.</p>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[null@example.com (PhiConcept)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=65924#p65924</guid>
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			<title><![CDATA[The Declaration of Independence]]></title>
			<link>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=65922#p65922</link>
			<description><![CDATA[<p>Who do you think these Hollywood actors are addressing, as the subject of the indictment?<br />King George III of England, or someone else?</p><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxTvS-kyHzs">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxTvS-kyHzs</a></p><div class="quotebox"><blockquote><p><span style="color: gray"><strong>(Introduction)</strong></span></p><p>[center]<strong>IN CONGRESS, JULY 4, 1776</strong></p><p>The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,[/center]<br />[size=20]W[/size]hen in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature&#039;s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.</p><p><span style="color: gray"><strong>(Preamble)</strong></span></p><p>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — </p><p>That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.</p><p><span style="color: gray"><strong>(Indictment)</strong></span></p><p>Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.</p><p>He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the public good.</p><p>He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.</p><p>He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants only.</p><p>He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable, and distant from the depository of their Public Records, for the sole purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.</p><p>He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.</p><p>He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to be elected, whereby the Legislative Powers, incapable of Annihilation, have returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and convulsions within.</p><p>He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions of new Appropriations of Lands.</p><p>He has obstructed the Administration of Justice by refusing his Assent to Laws for establishing Judiciary Powers.</p><p>He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone for the tenure of their offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.</p><p>He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of Officers to harass our people and eat out their substance.</p><p>He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent of our legislatures.</p><p>He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the Civil Power.</p><p>He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their Acts of pretended Legislation:</p><p>For quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:</p><p>For protecting them, by a mock Trial from punishment for any Murders which they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:</p><p>For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:</p><p>For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:</p><p>For depriving us in many cases, of the benefit of Trial by Jury:</p><p>For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences:</p><p>For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province, establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the same absolute rule into these Colonies</p><p>For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws and altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:</p><p>For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.</p><p>He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and waging War against us.</p><p>He has plundered our seas, ravaged our coasts, burnt our towns, and destroyed the lives of our people.</p><p>He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to compleat the works of death, desolation, and tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty &amp; Perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.</p><p>He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.</p><p>He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages, sexes and conditions.</p><p>In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by repeated injury. A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.</p><p><span style="color: gray"><strong>(Denunciation)</strong></span></p><p>Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our British brethren. We have warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which would inevitably interrupt our connections and correspondence. They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation, and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace Friends.</p><p><span style="color: gray"><strong>(Conclusion)</strong></span></p><p>We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these united Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor.</p><p>— John Hancock</p><p>New Hampshire: Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton<br />Massachusetts: John Hancock, Samuel Adams, John Adams, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry<br />Rhode Island: Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery<br />Connecticut: Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott<br />New York: William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris<br />New Jersey: Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark<br />Pennsylvania: Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross<br />Delaware: Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean<br />Maryland: Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton<br />Virginia: George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton<br />North Carolina: William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn<br />South Carolina: Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton<br />Georgia: Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton</p></blockquote></div>]]></description>
			<author><![CDATA[null@example.com (visavis)]]></author>
			<pubDate>Sat, 29 Sep 2007 20:32:02 +0000</pubDate>
			<guid>https://forum.noblerealms.org/viewtopic.php?pid=65922#p65922</guid>
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