GenSek wrote:

Hermit Brad wrote:

Don't throw the baby Jesus out with the bathwater.

If Jesus were really what he is claimed to be in the bible, he would never allow all the atrocities and manipulation to be done in his name. If he really existed, he is far from what the bible and the church say about him.

"No one is perfect, not even I".

Nature works in crazy ways. Nobody is a real 100% savior, I guess this is because we are all infinitely connected, good and bad. Remember also that the bible is written by man and claims to be the word of God. Nobody could possibly know everything Jesus said and did now a days because we weren't there. Heck, half of his life isn't even in the bible. Miracles happen every day to and by people. We don't know Jack Squat.

I always believed Jesus to be a metaphor of some sort anyways, and pronounced "He's Us" - the symbolization of how we are all connected and beings of God and light yet contstantly killing one another and ourselves because of our "Sin", and the only way to save ourselves is by "Forgiveness" and at least trying to learn from these things and evolve... but hey like I said... don't know Jacl Squat.

I agree. I see Christ Jesus as a symbolic representation of the Higher Self within each human being.

Hermit Brad wrote:

Don't throw the baby Jesus out with the bathwater.

If Jesus were really what he is claimed to be in the bible, he would never allow all the atrocities and manipulation to be done in his name. If he really existed, he is far from what the bible and the church say about him.

"No one is perfect, not even I".

Nature works in crazy ways. Nobody is a real 100% savior, I guess this is because we are all infinitely connected, good and bad. Remember also that the bible is written by man and claims to be the word of God. Nobody could possibly know everything Jesus said and did now a days because we weren't there. Heck, half of his life isn't even in the bible. Miracles happen every day to and by people. We don't know Jack Squat.

I always believed Jesus to be a metaphor of some sort anyways, and pronounced "He's Us" - the symbolization of how we are all connected and beings of God and light yet contstantly killing one another and ourselves because of our "Sin", and the only way to save ourselves is by "Forgiveness" and at least trying to learn from these things and evolve... but hey like I said... don't know Jacl Squat.

Obviously, when the only criterion of truth is what YOU feel is true, then there is no point in any discussion. Case closed.

When the only criterion of truth is what YOU feel is true, then there's still a point to the discussion. Case open.  GenSek your statement is wide open for discussion because, as you state, it's not just about whether or not truth can be found in the bible, but whether it can be found anywhere.

I don't think i know it all.  Like almost everyone else on earth i am blind to some degree.  Sometimes a feeling can betray me and sometimes a feeling is spot on the truth.  So, the criterion for truth must be a TRUE feeling.  That is, a 'knowing' motivated by the true self.  Like any feeling, this can be sensed, felt.  But everyone says that don't they... ie.  "I know what i'm talking about."  That's what everyone says when they're telling you... "this is true". 

So, the only criterion for truth is ... "is it true?"   If it's true, then it is true.  Too simple.

The only way to know that truth, is by some degree of connection to the inner- spirit which already knows all truth.  Otherwise there can be no resonance with external reflections of truth... in scripture or anywhere else.  Yes, the resonance to truth can be 'felt'.  But the self- justification of error, based on the lower- ego, can also be felt.  So, feelings can betray... self and others.  Then how does anyone take another step on the path of truth when feelings can decieve?   Firstly, the path of self- knowledge brings one closer and closer to perfect knowledge of all things.  Therefore, put first things first.  "Seek and ye shall find"  Find what?  What is the goal?  The "kingdom of heaven" is the goal and that is within us as Jesus taught.  Seek the real- self and ye shall find it.  It is spiritual and can teach us all things and guide our way 

"Case closed" cannot direct one on the way.  It is a cul- desac.  A dead end which results in stagnation. 

Everyone has to keep moving on the path and try to work it all out.  This universe doesn't reveal all truth in an instant.  Truth has to be approached with a willingness to learn if it's veils are going to be removed... one by one.  That takes at least enough humility to recognise... "I don't know much"  but i am willing to learn.  I am willing to be led by the intuition of the spiritual self.  A person who knows that true- self to some degree can be moved by exterior reflections of truth.

Obviously this is very basic but only you can know the difference between truth and falsehood for yourself.  Nobody else can know something for you.  There is no way around that except to abrogate your own responsibility for decision making.  What is the alternative to working it out for yourself?  Have someone else tell you what is true and false?   The church can tell you, I can tell you and Joe Blow can tell you.  We are within our rights to tell you so and so.  But you have an obligation to decide yourself whether or not it is truth.   There is no alternative.  If you would maintain your sovereignty as an individual with freewill, what is the alternative but to judge for yourself?   Does that make truth relative because everyone must do that?  No.  It's just a fact that somethings will be true and some will not, regardless of what anyone says about anything.   Truth is a path which starts with you, relatively ignorant of truth, and ends with you, enlightened by truth.

edit: I was writing mine while titmouse posted.

titmouse_ wrote:

The inner spirit is the translator, or decipher of mixed messages.

Case closed.

Okay. Stagnation.

The inner spirit is the translator, or decipher of mixed messages.

No mixed messages there. My inner spirit tells me that the whole bible is full of it and it is not worth trying to dig a few pearls out of it.

Nexus' inner spirit tells him what is truth in the bible and what has been inserted there by evil manipulators.

Your inner spirit tells you that the scriptures are means to the truth, yet the majority is far too inferior to be able to reach your level of enlightened knowledge.

John Doe's inner spirit tells him that he should re institute polygamy as in the Old Testament and that it is the only way to find salvation.

Obviously, when the only criterion of truth is what YOU feel is true, then there is no point in any discussion. Case closed.

"When the grain ripened, he came quickly with his sickle in his hand and reaped it. Whoever has ears to hear, let him hear."

You say there is NO way the truth can be separated from the lie.  There is a way but it cannot be done by an intellectual immersion in the "letter" in the mistaken belief in it's infallibility.  Exterior things are imperfect and a healthy scepticism is therefore valid.  Only by a willingness to investigate, to learn and attunement with the inner- spirit can truth be known.  The inner attunement with the spirit of truth is "the way" which Jesus taught.  He taught us that that inner spirit "will teach you ALL things".

The inner- spirit (which Jesus came to re- connect us to) is the only true location of truth.  Right within us.  We can only discern the truth about anything exterior, including the meaning of scripture, by that interior light... "rightly dividing the word" as it is written.  That intuition can be developed as the guide to truth in all things, including scripture.  In that way you have to decide if what is put in front of you is truth.  What is the meaning of what is written?  Is it literal or are there deeper levels of meaning?  And what is merely a foreign installation of false doctrine?  The old books of the bible are not exempt from that scrutiny and true discernment cannot be accomplished by the intellect alone.  Yet you have to decide for youself what is an authentic interpretation.  As described above, the bible places the onus on ourselves to do that.   A fair bit has already been written over the past ~130 years or so which sheds light on the subject but again the question of authenticity is inescapable when reading any book and the onus is rightly on oneself to discern what is true.

The first step is easy but christians won't take it no matter how much evidence you put in front of them.  You've taken it yourself GenSek.  You know that the bible (and virtually everything else) is not completely true.  The next step which christians cannot / will not take is to then separate the wheat from the chaff in the bible itself.  This task cannot be achieved in a day but is made possible over time by separating the wheat from the chaff in ourselves.   That is an ongoing process.  I guess just read some of the work i can link you to (including outside links if you want them) and come to your own conclusions about it.  That's the only way.

I agree with you GenSek that the bible is a mixed bag and that today there are many better sources of spiritual truth.  Yes there are distortions in the bible and if you're not careful you really could get messed up trying to tell the difference between lies and truth and of course the misinterpretations which christians perpetuate.

I tend to think that the Christians are the victims here, not the perpetuators/perpetrators. At least, most of them are the victims.

But how is an ordinary person supposed to tell the difference? How does one get to the true meaning?

Again, I think it is the other way around - the Bible has led many people astray by claiming its exclusivity and by making radical statements that demand absolute loyalty.

I don't doubt your sincerity, nexus, and thank you for the pointers there. I'll surely check them out. The question is - why would I consider these interpretations authentic?

That is exactly my point. If there was a Jesus, whatever is left of his teaching is purely a mind control tool. And I would not even try searching for hidden pearls of wisdom inside the pile of shit that we call the Bible, because there is NO way to tell which part of the Bible is truth and which is a lie. The bible seems to be a complete system which doesn't tolerate picking and choosing what feels right and rejecting what doesn't. At least, I am unable to see how one can hold some things from the Bible as true and others as false. I would think there has to be some objective criterion to go by.

If you read the Bible carefully, you will see that it, in fact, teaches that simple formula. Abraham became god's friend because he believed the promise and acted upon it by leaving his country and going to the promised land. He is made the primary example of what true biblical faith should be like. Then, Apostle Paul says the following -

If you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. (Romans 10:9-10)

I don't see anything here about developing the inner spirit and ascending with Jesus as a brother. Just a simple utterance and an inner conviction that do the trick. In fact, the biblical concept of salvation was so basic that many disciples never changed their lives despite claiming to be true believers, for which Apostle James had to rebuke them in his epistle. IT IS, IN FACT, JUST A SIMPLE FORMULA!

I am afraid you are talking about a New Age sort of Jesus. And I am talking about the biblical one. We might be talking about different persons here. And I don't see any connection between the two.

Cheers

But I believe you are mistaken in that the very reason why Christians are so adamant about the literal interpretation of the bible and the story of Jesus is the very radical nature of what Jesus of the bible (and the whole bible) says. He said: I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE. Anyone reading these words is faced with a very definite choice - either accept these words at face value, or reject them totally. This choice is implicit in everything the bible says - you either follow Christ, taking your cross upon yourself, even to the point of death, after which you will be an eternal servant of the Tyrant god who is insatiable when it comes to praise from his own creations, or you are automatically enlisted into the army of the devil and your ultimate destiny is the lake of fire.

The way I understand Christianity is since Jesus represents the Christ/Buddha Consciousness then "I am the way, the truth and the life no one comes to the Father except through me" is a true statement that I agree with.  The Gospels are some of the more awesome books of the Bible... the tyrant God running rampant through the Old Testament is not always the cool one.  He even uses the word "gods" in the plural.  Regarding hell, the Lord's prayer asks for God's will on Earth as it is in Heaven as we should try and bring Heaven TO Hell by transcending it.  Those not doing so are stuck "eternally" in Hell by not entering through the gates of Heaven in the eternal moment of now.

Right?    Something like that anyways...

Your Quote... "I AM the way the truth and the life"... is not as simple as it appears to you at first glance.  The christians have misinterpreted and misrepresented this and countless other statements by Jesus and others.  Once you have seen enough of the authentic interpretations of what Jesus meant by his statements then if you did read the bible again you would see it all much differently.  The bible wouldn't be such a minefield for you.  I've been interpreting these statements (and discovering the interpretations of others) and including them in my posting on various threads here at NR for about 9 months.  Maybe you came across some of them? 

At this stage you may be completely disinterested in the subject and that would be understandable but if you remain curious at all you can find some of these authentic interpretations in many of my posts but three NR threads come to mind now:

1) The Science of the Spoken Word SOUND - spirituality section
2) George washington - history section
3) Debunking Jesus - spirituality section?

There are quite a few others too and they all deal with Jesus true teachings... ie.  The "Son of God" is the christ- consciousness individualised inside each one of us.  Therefore Jesus is a brother to emulate, not a God to worship.  Jesus taught this himself but his true teaching was distorted for the purposes of mind control.  Christians have reduced salvation to a simple formula of belief in Jesus in order to get to "heaven" yet Jesus taught that "the kingdom of heaven is within you". ie. "the consciousness of God is within you" and by developing the inner- spirit we too can be spiritually transformed and ascend as Jesus did.  There is much more to it and once you start to uncover the real Jesus you begin to appreciate that he is one of the best ancient examples you will find,  teaching what we almost take for granted today about our selves and our quest for spiritual truth.  That a path of self- mastery has been taught for millenia by Adepts of the spirit is a wonderful thing to discover and it's been right under our noses all along... right within us and right within the pages of scripture east and west.

Christians are bamboozled by Jesus true teaching and they almost always deny it when they are confronted by it.  Some people would rather a watered down christianity than the true Christ.  I have other links if you are interested.  Cheers GenSek.

No literary work in the material plane is 100% true because it is written by imperfect human beings and it may even be tampered with by additions and editing.  So if you apply blind faith to any exterior piece of work you are avoiding your personal resposibility for spiritual discernment.  Ask yourself this question : Do you apply the same absolute standard to any other literary [or other] work?   Have you applied it to NR?  Clearly you haven't dismissed Noble Realms so you must not have insisted that all the threads here are totally true or totally false.  Good move.  It's a profitable approach to life's mysteries.

Christians try to get us all uptight with an absolutist approach to scripture, based on their own literal interpretations of course.  They claim it's "all true" or it's "all false".  That's a false dichotomy we should never fall for if we are looking for reflections of truth wherever we can find them.  Christians insist on this false dichotomy based on their own mis-interpretations because they want to sever you from the many other literary sources of truth.  They may be well meaning in that but they merely capture you in an institutionalised box... the church... and a mental box... in which you believe life's mysteries can be reduced to simple formulas of belief.  Open the window, let the breeze in and transcend the boxes by understanding them.  To do that sometimes you have to enter them.

I see what you are saying. But I believe you are mistaken in that the very reason why Christians are so adamant about the literal interpretation of the bible and the story of Jesus is the very radical nature of what Jesus of the bible (and the whole bible) says. He said: I am THE WAY, THE TRUTH and THE LIFE. Anyone reading these words is faced with a very definite choice - either accept these words at face value, or reject them totally. This choice is implicit in everything the bible says - you either follow Christ, taking your cross upon yourself, even to the point of death, after which you will be an eternal servant of the Tyrant god who is insatiable when it comes to praise from his own creations, or you are automatically enlisted into the army of the devil and your ultimate destiny is the lake of fire.

The bible does not allow for anything in between. NR on the other hand, is a community of free thinking people who come people here to discuss fringe subjects in hopes to get some answers to the weird stuff that happens all around us. No one here (there may be exceptions, though) demands absolute loyalty to any one point of view.

I agree that there maybe various sources of truth. But I believe some sources are not worth exploring because the amount of lies is far greater and if you are not careful enough they can mess you up to the point at which you will no longer be able to tell them apart. The bible is like Nazi propaganda about other inferior races  - it presents it's ideas in an either/or fashion without possibility for dissent. And as such it is mainly a tool of manipulation that someone very clever came up with.

But just a couple things.  As you know i often use some of the terms you consider to be crude, meaningless products of christian conditioning.   Aren't you really just expressing a personal aversion to certain words based on your own conditioning?   For example, you know one term i use is "soul".   The soul consciousness can be found behind personal aversion and attraction to particular words and called something else if you like.  But it does exist and it does have the potential for immortality.  You say that Buddha taught that everything structured (time, self, person, soul) eventually disperses of it's own accord into endless patterns of energy taking various forms.  First of all the soul is the "solar image" in matter of the spiritual- Self in spirit.  SOlar- U- L-ight.  The soul is one of those "endless [immortal] patterns of energy taking form" that you mentioned but it can only be "endless" if it can be cleansed and enlightened by the Bhudda- Self.  It is then immortalised in the ascension. 

We do have an individual spiritual-Self.  Guatama called it "Bhudda".  Jesus called it "Christ".  The individual christ / buddha self is an image patterned from the Universal Christ / Bhudda Spirit and it retains individuality, immortally.  So it really is to that "spirit" which our "soul" awakens.  Call them other names if you prefer.  Spirit is pure (self- conscious) existance.  That's why we aspire to conscious awareness of inner- Spirit.  Soul can unite to IT.  If the soul does awaken to and merge with spirit then that is the only way the soul can achieve continuity/immortality.  That unity does not result in soul extinguishment.  Union can only result as a consequence of the extinguishment of the lower- ego, the carnal mind, the shadow- self, the dweller on the threshold, the karmic- self... call it whatever.... but not the soul.  It is the karmic- self which would smother the soul forever if it could.   It propagates karmic seed after it's kind {revolving negative thoughts and emotions}..until it is "arrested" and transmuted by the light of Bhudda / Christ.  So karma is far from a red herring.   Our production of the karmic- self (in ignorance) is the cause /reason our souls are incarnate in a dark world having our karmic experiences and "suffering". 

Montalk is welcome to move this out of the "articles to read section" if he wants.  This is the "articles to read" section not a critique or a critique of a critique page.  Cheers.

Hermit Brad wrote:

You apparently threw the baby Jesus out with the bathwater, GenSek.

I don't share the musings of some people about Jesus, you see. To me the biblical account of him is either entirely true or not. In the latter case I would not believe a single line of the bible about Jesus. If any part of the bible is false, I would question everything that the book has to say. And the reason for that is that the bible makes very radical statements. It says, for instance that Jesus is god, and that only through him people can attain salvation, or that whatever we ask for in his name will be granted to us. These things are either all true or all false, there could not be ONLY SOME truth to them. From my experience some of these things are not true therefore I threw Jesus out with the bathwater. And that is the proper place for the Jesus of the bible.

What if the biblical account of Jesus is not "entirely" correct but is "partially" correct?  See, if you insist, as christians do,  that it must be totally true or totally false you could miss something either way.  Given that the biblical record is difficult to understand, if you believed it was totally, literally true then you would probably have to put your faith in some external "expert" authority to interpret it for.  We know what literal interpretations and self appointed experts have brought us over 2000 yrs.  If you believe the bible is totally false how would you account for the deep truths that can be found in it? 

No literary work in the material plane is 100% true because it is written by imperfect human beings and it may even be tampered with by additions and editing.  So if you apply blind faith to any exterior piece of work you are avoiding your personal resposibility for spiritual discernment.  Ask yourself this question : Do you apply the same absolute standard to any other literary [or other] work?   Have you applied it to NR?  Clearly you haven't dismissed Noble Realms so you must not have insisted that all the threads here are totally true or totally false.  Good move.  It's a profitable approach to life's mysteries.

Christians try to get us all uptight with an absolutist approach to scripture, based on their own literal interpretations of course.  They claim it's "all true" or it's "all false".  That's a false dichotomy we should never fall for if we are looking for reflections of truth wherever we can find them.  Christians insist on this false dichotomy based on their own mis-interpretations because they want to sever you from the many other literary sources of truth.  They may be well meaning in that but they merely capture you in an institutionalised box... the church... and a mental box... in which you believe life's mysteries can be reduced to simple formulas of belief.  Open the window, let the breeze in and transcend the boxes by understanding them.  To do that sometimes you have to enter them.