The more we dwell in sci-fi or spiritual materialism (outta space aliens,etc.), the more strenght we give to those unhealty thoughtforms...

Another reason to close that tv, computer and cd music, and to go outside get some fresh air and real sensations!

He says that we create "beings" unintentionally anyway... or out of ignorance.
These thought forms are the mental objects we are constantly trying to manipulate things with for the "me" with,
out of STS or unconciousness and attach ourselves to. The attachment is more suffering as mentioned above by Nyarlathotep.
Would that we could raise awareness of what is already happening.
As mentioned above by Zejith_Themis -
isn't this the definition of Maya/illusion and the seemingly conscious yet unintentional creation of suffering itself?
I know someone who had someone do these ceremonies with her to get more money and became a prostitute afterwards.
Definitely seemed quite fked up by  the whole thing.

I wonder if the whole idea of creating something to help us isn't an assumption reinforcing the thoughtform that we "need help" in the psychic realm which is basically disempowering. The power we always have already!
Kind of like buying a remote for the remote?
Or do we begin to use properly what we already "have" and are not using properly?
Humans are always trying to get someone to do things for them.
It says to the unconscious (which only "exists" while we are unconscious!)
i am too lazy to do it. i am not capable enough.
i will not find it myself so please tell me how to find enlightenment etc.
Nothing good or new can come of this underlying (and all too common) mindset.

I heard lots of nth-hand "horror stories" about goetia too, though most seemed more like comedies. The books I listed were by practitioners, and i actually find their accounts to jibe more with the kind of sensation i get from non-evocatory practices (pentagram and hexagram, middle pillar), therefore more "beievable" to my perception, as it were.

whereas the stories of "modern magickal meddlers" sound mostly like some guys getting high and scaring themselves a bit, then attributing all negative happenings for the following weeks to it.

some others, more "scientifically" recorded but still a bit haphazard in method were intriguingly scary.

I remember one, and if i find it i'll post it for the sheer campfire value, of someone who got silly and invoked a goetia demon. Dont remember which it was atm, but to cut the long story short their account was of perceiving something i remember from being very small... like a disc of falling little lights like snow coming down from above, that image caught my attention. Their experience then went forth to the "snow" becoming like tiny, burning shooting stars... when the trance/vision/epileptic fit had ended they found they had trashed the room and had rugburns all over.

Which is cool as spit, but hard to swallow. How does someone get as far as setting up a successful ritual without even knowing the difference between evoction and invocation? Or maybe i just had to hack so hard at getting result from the simple energy-moving rituals  that i underestimate the median sensitivity of the population...

{edit- no luck yet on turning up the account i remember, but "goetia evocation" and "<name_spirit_goetia> evocation" as search terms turn up a lot of forums i didn't see back in the day when i was searching high and low for accounts and analyses of this sort of thing... and there seems to be a hell of a lot of narratives out there. the forums on http://www.sacred-magick.org keep turning up positives.}

You might find it a good read.

this point of view, accepting it for a moment for the sake of discussion, justifies the definition of these entities as "evil spirits"  by assimilating them to psychological tendencies. for example (and this is an example i'm constructing, not neccessarily a view shared by anyone else):

Andromal could be seen as the tendency to desire retribution for injustice. Left unckecked and "wild" such a tendency could lead to vindictiveness, obsession with crime and punishment, judgemental thinking etc... becoming truly a devil that plagues one's existence.

the solution, always following the idea of these entities being "portions of the unconcious", is to summon it up, tell it who's boss and "tie the sphinx to your chariot".  in fact the goetia lists Andromal's purpose as bringing back stolen goods and the theif who took them, punishing wrongdoers and finding lost treasure. The psychological interpretation invites us to read these "duties" as symbolic.

To quote (actually paraphrase as i've mislaid the book at the moment) DuQuette: "the spirits are all in your mind. You just have no idea how big your mind is".

also: "yes, the spirits are real. yes, the spirits are imaginary. most people simply don't realise how real imagination is".

I am quite curious as to what you intend with Bime being an acquaintance... sounds terribly interesting!

93/93..

Genie = Djinni = arab version of "Daemons" = modern word "Demons".

"The world of occultism is like a mirror wherein he who sees muck... "   oh, never mind.

The point is that "demon evocation" is badly misunderstood due to disinfo disseminated both by those opposing such pratices AND by those who have written thereupon, placing those bugger "blinds" to keep out the "unworthy"  (read: "those who cannot grok") .

If you enjoyed and found practical use for "Creating Magickal Entities" (not a bad one at that), I wholeheartedly recomend both

"The Key To Solomon's Key, secrets of magic and masonry": an exploration of the symbols of masonry and of salomonic magic (specifically the Legemeton or "Goetia") by L.M. DuQuette; 

and  also: "Enochian Sex Magick, the Enochian world of Aleister Crowley": a commented and expanded version of Liber Chanock by C.S. Hyatt, Ph.D and the aforementioned DuQuette.

As for us being thoughtforms, isn't that pretty much the buddhist doctrine of Maya, "Me" being the illusion in question?

And our conviction of NOT being thoughtforms the principal manifestation of the first fetter, Avidya (ignorance)?

I have never worked with Goetic demons, but Bime is sort of an acquaintance of mine. The Goetic demons seem to have unfortunately been given a bad rap and tend to be associated with "evil" and "darkness". If I ever worked with them I would certainly not threaten them with Judeo-Christian symbols. I have yet to decide whether or not these are archetypes within the unconscious or objective beings.

Franz Bardon gets quite deep into creating thoughtforms and entities in his amazing Initiation into Hermetics. But to even reach that stage and be really effective takes a lot of dedication and discipline.

"The Universe is Mental-held in the Mind of The All."-The Kybalion

"The world of occultism is like a mirror wherein he who sees muck... "   oh, never mind.

The point is that "demon evocation" is badly misunderstood due to disinfo disseminated both by those opposing such pratices AND by those who have written thereupon, placing those bugger "blinds" to keep out the "unworthy"  (read: "those who cannot grok") .

If you enjoyed and found practical use for "Creating Magickal Entities" (not a bad one at that), I wholeheartedly recomend both

"The Key To Solomon's Key, secrets of magic and masonry": an exploration of the symbols of masonry and of salomonic magic (specifically the Legemeton or "Goetia") by L.M. DuQuette; 

and  also: "Enochian Sex Magick, the Enochian world of Aleister Crowley": a commented and expanded version of Liber Chanock by C.S. Hyatt, Ph.D and the aforementioned DuQuette.

As for us being thoughtforms, isn't that pretty much the buddhist doctrine of Maya, "Me" being the illusion in question?

And our conviction of NOT being thoughtforms the principal manifestation of the first fetter, Avidya (ignorance)?

kinsei wrote: We are subject to influences, acting according to what we perceive to our own thoughts, but are they?  Maybe we are not just influenced by negative energies, but by positive ones as well.

That's what I've been thinking lately.  I posted awhile ago about if there was such thing as a positive entity attachment.  People always talk about negative influences/attachments.  But what about the positive influences?
Where do they come from, how do the affect us? 

If were constantly bombared by negative & positive thoughtforms that aren't our own.
That makes us just vessels for another's agenda?  Where is the freewill?

I've always seen thoughts as seperate from me.

Could the subconscious really be beings that thoughtformed us?  hum.........

I like the way you think thats awesome, i think maybe Stuie Wylde got it backwards too, this is the mirror world

Not really ramifications on the level that I seemed to be asking about... but more along the lines of the human race being thoughtforms?  Why not?  We are subject to influences, acting according to what we perceive to our own thoughts, but are they?  Maybe we are not just influenced by negative energies, but by positive ones as well.  Could we be acting out what various subtle beings are telling us to do.  In truth, we cannot claim our thoughts to be "our own".  We are always and only guided by imput from our subconscious, but what is our subconscious, truly?  Could the subconscious really be beings that thoughtformed us?  hum.........

Beyond that, yeah it's probably going to be up to personal opinion.  But I'd stay mindful of what the ultimate purpose is regarding why you're trying to bring other entities into being.

SamIAm wrote:
Many people warn that you might recieve a bill of service later down the road for using these entities and their services.  I'm not so sure.

Good point. If you create the entity yourself you can choose the energy source to sustain its existence.  Practices like Demon Evocation require some sort of payment and can be somewhat dangerous. There as many opinions on this subject as there are entities.

Now we're getting to what I wanted to discuss.  What are the ramifications?  Opinions welcomed.