z3n3rg replied:

Not a bad idea, I did read parts of this thread, and although it did contain some good insights into hyperdimensional politics, one has to remember that it is from a self-proclaimed demon. And demons are notorious for spreading deceit, despair, hopelessness, etc.-lala

I wonder what you guys think about reality creation after checking out this site:
(Warning-This stuff isn't for the airy-fairy...)

http://www.desteni-universe.co.za/

Why not create a thread to discuss this site and any specifics that stand out to you?

Healing cannot occur in an environment of deceit, imo.

Just because were standing  in the dark does not mean we cannot laught.

http://www.desteni-universe.co.za/

Both points-of-view come to the same thing: it's a game...it isn't real.  I think that's why I chose to respond to this thread so much.  The "none-of-this-is-real" belief behind the "your-higher-self-is-in-complete-control" belief.  There are probably more beliefs than that behind the higher self belief, but that's one of them.

So now I feel like a kid in Sunday school.  If only the will of the higher self matters, why have a lower self with a will?  Why bother?

I have no way of knowing whether you're addressing your questions to me or not, so I feel the need to point out that "none-of-this-is-real" is not an accurate description of my personal opinion on this matter, which does not at all deny reality.

Your accident was clearly very real and I don't deny at all your pain or damage to your vehicle.  I will suggest that possibly your higher self allowed it in order to demonstrate the importance of defensive driving.  Perhaps you got the message and that saved you in a situation on another date.  The accident kept you from getting wherever you were going at the time, so perhaps you would have become a victim of a serial killer on the prowl had you not been interrupted.  Or a third possibility is that the matrix tried to take you out and your higher self alerted you to speed up and avoid being killed.  These are only three possibilities out of an infinite number of reasons you "allowed" it.

My oldest son had a wreck on a motorcycle at age 19 which, with the assistance of an inattentive orthopedic surgeon, left him with permanent nerve damage in his arm.  At the time I was beside myself with anger, metaphorically shaking my fist at the sky and wanting to sue the pants off of the doctor.  But my son took it all in stride and proceeded to make a wonderful life for himself in spite of his crippled arm.  Why did it happen?  I feel sure that on some level he KNOWS why, and that is why he is at peace with it.  His higher self was in charge that day, I believe, allowing him to suffer the consequences of his lower will's stupidity.  At least he wasn't killed.    The accident was bad enough to have killed him.  But perhaps his arm was sacrificed to save his head, and maybe because he had other stuff he needed to live to do.

I did not say that it was a terrifying thought.  I simply don't believe that seriously harmful things happen to souled people without their higher selves allowing it for some reason, however difficult that might be to believe for some other folks.

I didn't mean the "terrifying" question to be directed specifically at you, though it was your post that made me think of it.  For the record, however, how does the possibility of the opposite of your belief make you feel?

I generally agree with you on the nothing-happens-without-our-higher-selves-allowing-it theory.  A higher self implies a lower self, though, and a possibility of a conflict of wills between them.

I think what the essay in the first post was getting at, in part, is that when people say: "It was their karma," they're using the pronoun "their" to refer to the higher self and ignoring the existence of the body and mind.  A souled person isn't a single unit.  It may be continuous in terms of energy, but it rarely is in terms of awareness.

...I guess if you thoroughly identify with the life-is-a-videogame take, then sure, who cares what happens to the character on the screen?  It's all a game.  What's important is the player.  But what's the difference between people feeling that way about the violence on earth and the people who grow callous to videogame gore?  (I suppose in asking that I'm inferring that there's something wrong with people who play violent videogames and think nothing of it...Maybe nothing is wrong with it.  It is a game).     

Both points-of-view come to the same thing: it's a game...it isn't real.  I think that's why I chose to respond to this thread so much.  The "none-of-this-is-real" belief behind the "your-higher-self-is-in-complete-control" belief.  There are probably more beliefs than that behind the higher self belief, but that's one of them.

So now I feel like a kid in Sunday school.  If only the will of the higher self matters, why have a lower self with a will?  Why bother?

what is so terrifying about the idea that things happen to us randomly and without our control?  I can't come up with an answer.

I did not say that it was a terrifying thought.  I simply don't believe that seriously harmful things happen to souled people without their higher selves allowing it for some reason, however difficult that might be to believe for some other folks.

I will admit that, as a parent of four grown children, that thought brought comfort to me when I had to let them start driving and dating.    And, no, I don't believe it simply because I find it comforting.

...what a person experiences at any given moment is perfect for that person in terms of their location on their path and lessons that are needed.  I think our higher selves DO bring us what on the surface might seem negative things for the lessons contained therein.

I'm not Tom, but I would like to say that I think that that's a point-of-view that's well worth adopting because it makes easier to go on.  I have no idea if it's true or not.

I was thinking in terms of one's higher self ALLOWING an experience.  Speaking of "asking for" an experience or "bringing it upon yourself" are spins of that.

Yes, clearly there are young souls who fall under the law of accident, but those same souls are unlikely to be complaining about the lack of compassion shown by new agers.  Obviously such people lack free will, so there's not much of a real violation of free will in that case.

And don't get me wrong, I don't think that to say "you brought it on yourself, you know" is a appropriate thing to say... rather, my point is simply that particular complaint about non-biblical  or new-age spiritual thought is not a valid argument against the idea that one creates their own reality.

Tom, I think I have seen you say that what a person experiences at any given moment is perfect for that person in terms of their location on their path and lessons that are needed.  I think our higher selves DO bring us what on the surface might seem negative things for the lessons contained therein.

I don't believe that anything happens to us without our prior consent.

But what does "OUR" mean?  I can think of several things that happened to me that my mind didn't consent to.  For instance, in the fall of '04 I was making a left turn and an SUV blew a green light, hit me, and could've killed me if I hadn't sped up so that she would only smash the back half of my car and give me whiplash.  I quite clearly recall the SUV coming at me, not wanting it to come at me, trying to avoid it.  I didn't mentally consent to it.  My thoughts were more on the order of: "Oh shit...no...bad...this is gonna hurt...get yourself out of the way!"

Am I open to the possibility that a higher part of me mocked-up the car crash, though?  Absolutely.  I did learn from it.  My body and mind weren't in on it, however; they only found it funny later on. 

The same point can be made about the Sudanese women who were gang-raped recently.  I bet if you talked to them, the majority would not tell you that as it was happening they were thinking: "Oh, at last!  Please, please, tear open my vagina and anus!  Mutilate my chest and burn my children--you won't get a fight from me."  ...I doubt it went down like that. 

I'm also asking myself the question: what is so terrifying about the idea that things happen to us randomly and without our control?  I can't come up with an answer.  I don't find it particularly scary.  I mean, I don't want to have complete control taken away from me--like those Sudanese women--but I feel like even if it did happen I could survive it.

And even those who have brought it upon themselves still deserve support and compassion if that functions remedially in a spiritual way. The thing about resolving karma is that it involves grasping and applying a core lesson that was ignored when the freewill violation was committed (committed upon oneself, or upon another) so if you keep helping someone who keeps abusing your help to further evade learning that lesson, then that is no help at all. But I think there should be enough compassion to answer a call for help if the call is sincere.

Also, if you think about what happens to humans versus animals versus trees versus rocks, you'll see there is a gradation there in terms of how much of what happens is part of 'destiny' and 'lessons' and 'karma'. When a rock is crushed to make gravel, it is at the mercy of the rock crusher who has more power, but nothing much is being violated there because a rock is very basic.  So what I'm saying is that people who are young or embryonic souls, who are not all that conscious, fall more in line with the laws of accident, chance, probability, law of the jungle, natural selection, etc... than those who have more. The less consciousness, spiritual clout, and freewill something has, the less 'destiny' and 'lessons' and 'karma', the more you will see it be at the mercy of natural forces and more powerful beings. That's another reason I don't think everyone deserves what they get as a function of karma, because not everyone is even at the level of operating solely within metaphysical causes and effects. Some are partially or completely at the level of operating within physical causes and effects, and that's where accidents and overpowering takes place.

Compassion is best applied where it can find useful application. That limits it to your personal sphere of influence, and even then only to those who regardless of their errors truly want it and can actually benefit in a positive way from it. Discernment, discretion, and wisdom balance out compassion, and it's okay to use tough love or silence when nothing else would work. Since it is difficult or impossible to know at a glance where everyone in the world stands in regard to the true causes of their suffering, I find it necessary to strike a balance between having just enough compassion to answer a sincere call for help, and not wasting my energy being constantly anguished to the point of debilitation by the suffering of those in the world who are way beyond my sphere of influence.

Unless you believe that axe murders and fatal car crashes are completely random occurances.... which I do not believe. 

Healing cannot occur in an environment of deceit, imo.

Yup, complacency.

Which makes the statement, "You brought it on yourself"  seem full of apathy or heartlessness.

Althought, it may not be a wise statement to make, I sure most of us, feel for the suffereing of others.

During a down time recently , when I felt low , I thought the following to myself, ...
"Agh, why am I bothering, just forget everything you've learnt, felt or experienced and move on with your life as before, stop trying to "better" yourself, you don't need all this worry."
"Why should I bother when people don't take frindge-knowledge seriously, all those I speak to don't understand or think I'm mental."
"Responsibility."
"You and those like you have a responsibility to mankind".
"To forget all knowledge now and make no attempt to improve your world or the world around you would be criminal".

Althought we are not directly responsible for the worlds ills and horrors, we should feel an indirect responsibility, a responsibility not only to help heal but to help heal permanently.

Saying anyone has brought anything on themselves , may be true in some cases but saying you were killed by an axe to the head, or died in a horrific car-crash with your spouse because you asked for it, seems a little unreasonable.

Remember others motto: Out of chaos, order.