lala, the only way i can talk about it, is to acknowledge that there APPEARS to be at least 2 levels... the one we are "experiencing"...the somewhat fuzzy "world" where stuff is coming up for us to discuss and look at together, and the "actual" that is always available when we are looking earnestly. The world, existence and all that -energy that is always in flux but has a basis in laws that are stable and unchanging. The "Mind ground".
2 levels... duality
We cannot resolve it or understand it from a verbal or conceptual level, but once we do have understanding it is possible to point to the stillness that makes it possible to communicate clearly.

I call it "what is". Others might call it "the Dharma" but that sounds a little grand to me, is associated with buddhism and has the sort of stuffy ring of authority to it. After all it's just a word , a symbol for something we are trying to understand.

To be accurate, we have to admit to being in a trance already, we are trying to get some freedom here.
We are trying to "wake up" from the trance that we find ourselves in. We know we are dreaming this somehow, but haven't found the door.
We know there is truth somewhere but it is not obvious to us yet..so we struggle.

This is the result of conditioning= parents, teachers, peers, media, society etc...
all that has been imprinted on our individual minds...how we are programmed to think and respond...
a set of beliefs and images of "who we are" and what is happening.
All reinforced by millions of others who seem to also be sleepwalking in the same dream with us.

Somewhere inside we know the truth is "not this"...but we forget a few moments after being reminded and again seek to protect ourselves and make a solid place for "the me" in this quicksand of illusions and insecurity. We are so used to it. Conditioning is so strong that we can only leave it's grip for a few moments, if at all.
All the suffering and violence we see around us is just conditioning, like automated robots playing out their programmed responses. So because of this automatic-ness, humanity is not what it thinks it is. In the confused state there is no free will.
Straight up delusion.
By believing we are separate beings with individual needs and wants in competition with each other, as humans we have created this nightmare.
It has been this way so long hardly anyone remembers a time when sanity prevailed.
If we were not confused we would see it for what it is.

We would no longer be creating and living in the madness and instead be helping create or manifest clarity and love.
Seeing wholeness in each other and non-separation leads to compassion, competition and violence comes to an end.
Right here... not in some other world.
The truth is not somewhere else, it is just hidden from view... until we stop looking somewhere else, and face it...
the futility of trying to impose our own images, the pointlessness of trying to isolate ourselves...
let go of our illusions with both hands... and simply be with "what is", as it is.
Uncovering what is actually here and has been all along. That's why we call it "waking up".

As lala says "it is possible to meditate and not tap into a religious meme".

don't even need to call it meditation, if you don't want to.
Call it looking into it yourself.... call it seeing simply. seeing directly. listening. don't call it anything.

We don't need to replace our old conditioning with a new conditioning, if we can see it for what it is...poison! and let go of it...
let go of all the grasping, all the deluded hope for this small, mind created "me", all the arbitrarily programmed dreams...
and find out what is actually here right now!

The universe has balance and an undisturbed perfection in it, just as it is. No need to change one molecule.
We can discover this inwardly and manifest it...
by letting the unsupportable nonsense fall away.

Kahnsentrayshun wrote:

Maybe this is why suffering is a necessity. In past lifetimes, we may have provided the means for others to ascend while we suffered and now it is other people's turn to suffer so we can ascend. And once we ascend we can trully help others in ways that we cannot possibly now. Its like we are one of those structures made of humans. Where humans are standing on top of each other holding each others arms and legs. The people at the bottom hold up the weight of all those above them. I think this is infinite though. When the people at the top ascend, the people at the very bottom get to move up as people below them become the very bottom. Well, this isn't  something new I guess. This is pretty much explaining the whole circle of life.

No, I believe that this is more explaining why pyramid schemes work! The whole ruling-class, oligarchy, etc. rests on the foundation that it is spiritual to keep the poor believing that suffering is natural and that you can eventually move up the ladder through reincarnation, meanwhile the ruling class holy people figure out more and better ways to keep incarnating into their same families that have built up wealth and so forth. The Buddha was born in India (Lumbini) where institutionalized poverty (caste system) is part of Hinduism. This is just another matrix, you could say it is the Eastern stream of the matrix as opposed to the Western stream of the matrix; they both have their own forms of hypnosis-one mystical hypnosis, the other materialistic hypnosis; IMO they are flip sides of the same spider web.

This rings true to me.  The story told to the rabble is "equal opportunity" but I've seen that if one does a bit better than expected (I've also done worse than expected in other cases) one gets into very difficult situations.

I think these religions or spiritual practices have value and the place to be is on the bottom, or in the middle, as a learner who is more or less anonymous to the top level heirarchy.  At the top, they use the practice to attract "customers" to their "business".  I've seen the same thing in Yan Xin Qigong which I was involved with in the early '90s: power games, money for the top guy, and "advanced" methods that don't smell quite right.

I read one or two Buddhist sutras and they were very nice.  That's where the value is.  As Jesus Christ said, pray in  your closet.  Doing it in the public organization is very likely to be corrupted.

Yes, as soon as belief systems become a marketing trend it becomes co-opted by the matrix, I think that is the way that it works. And it is not as if rich, powerful celebrities do not know that thought and intention create reality. They have already manifested their thoughts into reality. Are these ideas dangerous to the powers that be? They (TPTB) are already using them, and if they can trivialize the public's understanding of them, they can use them to their own advantage. For instance, now the airwaves will be clogged with people focusing on creating wealth, fame, luxury and on and on, how many will be focusing on creating a reality with equity for all, respect for the planet and dissolving materialistic and egoistic desires? How much energy will follow the thoughts of people trying to stop the slaughter in Iraq? People can create their own reality, but do I want to live in their self-created universes? Maybe it's a narcissistic universe, maybe its another greedy universe with little respect for other beings. If I sound a little cynical it is because I am. I used to assume that everyone would use positive thinking and all that to create good, but I have found that a lot of people use positive thinking to create more negativity, if that is even possible. For instance, it might be someone's "greatest passion" to start the biggest sex slave trade on earth.;)-lala

Well yes, it is all grist for the mill; I think what I found the most not working for me was the old energy of these practices. But I also question whether it is the truth, isn't the dharma just an old meme too? How can we know unless we seek to go beyond what has been handed down for thousands of years? To me, the truth part of it lies in the teaching that energy is real and is the basis for all form. I believe in the individual soul, which most Eastern practices on the more sophisticated levels, do not. For instance, in some Tibetan Buddhist teachings they say the unpurified astral energy shoots through the top of the head and fragments at the time of death and the other stuff returns to source, then again they believe in the wheel of time and or reincarnation and high lamas (like the Dalai) lama returning as the same person over and over again. Then there are the more popular religious teaching for the masses which emphasize devotion and precepts and all of that. Zen Buddhism is different because it strives for a strong center (hara) and uncluttered thinking, it doesn't have all of the pomp and ritual of the other. Mostly rituals involve tapping into the collective unconscious that originated with the particular sect, so I have decided I do not want to connect with that particular set of memes. Someone stated on another thread that old rituals and devotions are not appropriate for modern people, and I believe that this is true. It is possible to meditate and not tap into a religious meme, and that is where I want to go with my own meditation. It is hard to stay awake in this culture and not be lulled into a hypnoid trance by one thing or another, including religious trances, pop culture trances, alternative culture trances, mainstream, etc. etc. So, for me the exploration of truth is to stay awake and not be lulled into anything, but to see it as clearly as I can and act from my own center.-lala

If "The Secret" is now being marketed by Montell Williamsand Oprah on American prime-time TV... do you suppose, JUST MAYBE, there is even the tiniest grain of DECEPTION concealed in this belief system? I have always found mainstream approval of pretty much ANYTHING to be a sign that there is something deceptive/negative about it that is hidden from immediate public view, and we're talking about day-time TV here. Sure, a grain of truth may be in there, but this "disinfo" dynamic really makes me sick after a while.

Is the mainstream focus on The Secret going to twist the truth of it into a big "Lose weight quick with the power of thought!" marketing campaign, or will it inspire vaster numbers to look deeper, maybe read OTHER books too? That is always the upswing of ANY acknowledgement of these deeper concepts in the mainstream. In fact, Cosmic Awareness (channeled source, been around since the 80s) stated that it was a good sign for '07:

Lala, I agree with your posts too.

Tim

this is a such a common idea that it hardly merits more comment here. The meme has probably fully saturated everyone here.

I don't mind what anybody thinks *Lono*, or have any prescribed ideas or techniques.
Ironically, the truth is always fresh and new, precisely because it cannot be contained in forms. Any teacher worth their salt in any tradition (or freethinker) knows that. But if there are blank statements made that don't ring true, i will certainly want to explore them more to see what can be seen in them.

and I should add that Lono basically summarized it all in her post anyway.;)-lala

I am not waiting for 2012, I did not say throw out ancient wisdom, I said nothing about the heart chakra; you are inferring all of those things in your vent, which I would say to you, what nerve was touched in you?
Monks practicing to change their brain patterns is one thing, yes, prolonged meditation, chanting and so forth does do that, and by the way I have practiced meditation, and I am not "New Age," if you'd bothered to read my post with an open mind you would have inferred that instead of your knee-jerk reactionary rant.
Much of what I spoke of was the institution of Buddhism and Buddhist practice, which I can assure you that I have seen first hand, and in action. I have come to the conclusion that some of these practices do not enhance my body/mind connection and I am in a stage of my life where I believe that they adversely affected my brain chemistry. Also, I have seen too much hollowness and immorality being justified in the name of Buddhism being practiced by Western practitioners, and I have first-hand involvement in a North American Buddhist cult. I have seen the shadow of Buddhism, and I also know some of the darker history of it and the monasteries and so forth, and I have seen people going gaga over it and lamas and so forth, so I think that I can say that it is just as much a fantasy to idealize it as ridiculous new age fantasies about being rescued by the Ascension and all of that. The main thing, IMO, right now, is for people trying to spiritually evolve in this dense materialistic world is to survive with hope that we can all emerge into a better more spiritualized world. I have been to Nepal, the poorest country in the world, and many of the people are deeply spiritual who practice Buddhism and Hinduism, but the duality of materialism is as thick as anywhere else. Rich Asian businesspeople pay monks to do pujas and prayers for them and all of that, supporting the monasteries, and then do whatever they like in terms of exploiting the poor, driving their enemies into the ground, adultery, etc. etc., so don't hold up Buddhism to me as any ideal. Yes, monasteries hold a space in concentration for non-aggression and give comfort to the people with rituals and prayers, but so does the Catholic workers organizations, liberation theology and all of that. You will find good people trying to do good in any field of endeavor, and power-brokers using people in any area. I don't idolize monks because they have achieved changes in brain entrainment, many monks are sent by their familiies to be monks as a kind of tithe, or some lamas have families and pass the family career down to their sons. In general Buddhist nuns are not treated very well and are worked into the ground with none of the privileges of monks, lamas and rinpoches.
That is my two cents, feedbaxlow, and you can take it any way you want to-lala

How enlightened of you.  Perhaps a bit more meditation is in order?

That the spirit leaves an established religion is usually true
in most case in a fairly short period of time now.
That we turn to communication and more direct methods
is why we are here but that does not mean
everything established is rubbish
Tibetan practice may still have some validity
who are we to say it doesn't?
too easy to say that it does not.

what are you refering to in concrete terms?

what are you looking for that you find missing in something "old"
and please tell me what is new?

To go into the new earth, new energy, new way, I don't feel like I can use the tools of the old earth, old energy, old way.

I am not a buddhist and i also have some doubts about Tibetan practices.
but if we are to take into account recent research, by meditating for long periods, Tibetan Monks and Lamas have profoundly changed the way their brain is working. The research shows that they can take negative and destructive emotions and convert them to positive understanding. New areas of the brain lighting up when they engage their awareness in meditation.
Can you say that?
Or is it too much bother to sit still for years at a time, you prefer to wait till "the new earth comes"?

Let me tell you something-
If there is a new earth coming...if it is different from this one... it will be due to people like these monks who are willing to give up stuff that has zero impact on reality and do what it takes to radically transform themselves and light their mind from the inside.
It will be because people are willing to practice wisdom.

Wisdom is wisdom no matter what method or tradition is the vehicle used to arrive at it.
Any system of belief is only a system... it is "individuals" who arrive at awakening or understanding within themselves, despite the "tradition", not because of it.
Throw out everything that has been used previously? why? because we are in a "new age"?
Because God said so?
That's the oldest "tool" yet...daddy will fix it for us, reasoning like children.

"The old earth" is what we have for the moment,
until we learn why things aren't working we will repeat the same mistakes all over again.
What we need is wisdom gained from experience! not a new set of illusions.
If you survive into "the new earth", you will have been a witness to what went wrong here on the old earth.
You will bring that history and experience with you inside your mind/memory if you are still a physical being.
Apparently you wish to be a physical being otherwise there would be no wish for survival.
If you have no "wish for survival" then you have no problems. You are free.

You want to get rid of ancient wisdom that may have existed for many thousands of years, handed down from teacher to student for millenia? If it's old... out it goes.
Isn't that a little bit arbitrary?
Ok what about language and math? those are old tools.
why not throw them out too?
scientific understanding and rigorous theory and testing...  old old old.
You have to admit that excluding something because it is already established is a bit impossible and ridiculous.
Very little on earth is new.... in fact exactly nothing substantial has changed so far. New products. same old hype.
Men still kill each other and hate because of political, religious and racial differences.
So someone tells you that a new earth is coming maybe 2012 or so and you just accept that because you feel this world is unfair or unjust.

Now we have a new dogma.
Apparently we are to "open our heart chakra" to be whole and begin to feel non-dysfunctional.
That is just another idea added to the on billion ideas we already have.

The way of truth includes everything that we are... MIND BODY+HEART... BEING and NON-BEING
sorry that it cannot be reduced to a 2 week course
ascension is an idea too.... all human ideas

Just being here is not an idea but have you tried it?
or is that too simple?

You will figure this out with your head.
That is what has caused this imbalance in the first place
To enjoy this miracle of life and all the beauty that is inside and outside
thinking must stop
stop trying to find anything but what is here right now.
belief is a red herring and produces violence and suffering , logic is too cold and makes us isolated,
just being a heart is an idea too and you will love them as they make you dig your own grave and tell you to get in it like in Darfur?

conscious suffering is what meditation... or just plain paying attention to "what is", is!
not avoiding suffering is exactly what brings it to an end
you turn around and face it...you say ok do your worst....look death (Which is an idea mostly, like everything else we believe in)
in the eye squarely.
It is not easy
it may be simple but it takes effort to get to faster than light speed.
once you are aware of what you are not...a human...an animal...a brain or a heart.
Then you can effortlessly ride the cushion of awareness that is your birthright
don't give up.... nobody said it would be easy
but it's not necessarily hard either. It is what it is

I pulled this off of wikipedia.

"Fullfilment feeling and the heart chakra

According to contemporary buddhist teacher Tarthang Tulku, the heart chakra is very important for the feeling of existential fullfilment.

As result of energetic imblance between chakras arises an almost continuous feeling of dissatisfaction. When the heart chakra is agitated, people lose touch with feelings and sensations, and that breeds the sense of dissatisfaction. That leads to looking outside for fullfilment.

When people live in their heads, feelings are secondary, they are interpretations of mental images that are fed back to the individual. When awareness is focused on memories of past experiences and mental verbalizations, the energy flow to the head chakra increases and the energy flow to the heart chakra lessens. Without nurturing feelings of the heart a subtle form of anxiety arises which results in the self reaching out for experience.

When the throat chakra settles and energy is distributed evenly between the head and the heart chakras, one is able to truly contact one's senses and touch real feelings.[9]"

If your living in the mind like I have for a long time, now is the time to attract and create experiences that foster love. Time is ticking.

The sacred heart center  I truley believe is the way out of this matrix.   I'm tired of this whole Up/Down/Pyramid scheme that is taught in all the religions of the world.  It annoys me, it has tottaly screwed us all up in our thought processes.  People seem to be stuck in this "duality-eyed" perspective still. 

No amount of meditation or whatever your doing to "ascend" is going to give you a heart.

Maybe I'm just too influenced by the articles over at:  http://www.equilibrauk.com/articles.shtml