Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

However...
LOL i noticed in the answers to you on first page a link to techniques on Maxine Dietrich's site.. that's the group i mentioned in my intro post

She pushes the idea of "no karma" and using black magic as you see fit, even through anger, etc.

Bad, bad ideas... though most of the 'techniques' (aura, chakkrams) she proposes come from useful sources (which she doesn't mention, or attributes them to her "guardian demon") i'd say the fostering of anger levels in that quarter isn't good. What was good was the fact that i discovered  folks of that inclination hated Crowley as much as the cristian ("xtian" lol) fundies. And if anything understood him even less.

If it hadn't been for that foray into the "dark side" i might never have understood where the boundaries stood.. and observing the extreme group mechanism in place there was a bit of an inocculation for me. Against the idea of fighting fire with fire for sure...

Anyway, I have adopted AC's definition of Magick and that means we're all doing magick all the time, conciously or not. So take Obi-Wan's advice and beware of the dark side, of anger, fear and desire... you affect the universe with every thought.

(that said there is a healthy lust to be felt in life.. te be distinguished from instinctive desire, but that's for another thread..)

Madscetcher wrote:

think that the apartment i moved into on july 28, 2006 chose me because i'm me - at least the person posting the ad (i'll call him "K").  okay, the place is decked out in antiques... catholic/religious imagery, sort of pagan (african masks), extremely super gothic.  it is the apartment of a packrat with impeccable organization skills.

and:

always wonder if he's involved in some sort of occult activity.  i shouldn't even say "wonder" because in some cases it is glaringly obvious that he is a part of whatever is going on.  it's just that... this sort of activity really confuses me.  is it wrong of me to just label him as one of them?  K told me that he had a "good feeling" about me when i looked at the apt, and it just seemed so strange a thing to say... but mostly because one of my harassers labeled me as "all about feelings" - which has some truth to it... i am very feely/intuitive.  it seemed like an appropriate thing to say to a feely/intuitive type, right?  one of our former roommates (we've had 3 since i've lived here) is a neo-pagan.  oh, the two of them have subtly made fun of me, in front of me - and i immediately sensed that she knew who i was when i met her.  just one of those things.

While I agree with Capitan, that it is best to focus on that which brings positive aspiration to one's life and thoughts, I think that you are also answering your own questions by what you've written. It's just that your answers are not on a physical or rational plane.
To wit:
Religious and symbolic artifacts, especially if they have been used in ceremonial or mystical ways carry stuff on 'em, whether you see that as vibes, entities or whatever. Remember a lot of magic and ritual stuff draws on stuff from the lower fourth dimension. Remember also the matrix ideas of this site where people are "open relays" for all kinds of negative stuff and also the "hive mentality" meaning that they are tuned-in to psychic stuff and then acting it out in an attacking way without being conscious of what they are doing. So, you are surrounded by people who have all kinds of magical (including Catholic) paraphenilia around, symbols and so forth, which you do not know the history of or what was done with them. K. is obviously involved in the occult, whether he knows it consciously or not, because he has all of these things around him. Symbolic and ritual artifacts are usually not just empty knick knacks even if people think that they are, they can carry energy and certain objects can be portals for energy, certain objects can have stuff attached to them, say something that is really old and that has been in a monastery for hundreds of years then finds its way to an import store. You have people around you (neo-pagans) that are probably doing magic and rituals that they think are positive or not harmful, but what do you really know about what they are drawing on and from, or what they are really worshipping. The fact that you felt compelled to fight back using negative magic indicates that that type of vibe making itself known to you. You have people using drugs, you have people sharing sexual information about themselves that it doesn't seem like you particularly want to know (boundary issues). So what does this tell you? You feel underlying covert hostility and disrespect toward yourself, but you can't be sure and you are second-guessing yourself that you are being paranoid. What does that tell you? Whether you look at it as just the people are "just" unconscious, or you think that they are being used by negative stuff, you are feeling hostility and that your boundaries are being invaded. This is a warning sign from yourself to yourself. I think Capitan is right to try to downplay alarmist fight or flight tendancies when dealing with this stuff, but I think you also have to look at what is really presenting itself in your immediate environment and then if you do not like it make plans on how to focus on putting yourself in an environment that makes you feel safer and more in control of your positive use of life force energy. If you have to expend a lot of energy protecting yourself or avoiding people, than you are probably not in the right milieu. Also, you may want to make it a point to be civil and friendly at all times but not get drawn into any type or protracted interactions with people. The pirate thing is interesting, because right before x-Mas I was invited to a pirate themed party and it was made out to be bring the whole family and bring a pirate thing for the gift exchange and all of that. There are a lot of these type of things based on a cult fascination with Pirates of the Carribean I and II. I've seen middle-aged people in the alternative community dressed like pirates walking around a cafe section of town. It seems very strange to me and I did not go to the Pirate party because even though I want to focus on fun and enjoying myself, I thought, "what do Pirates represent?" a lot of them were thieves, murderers and rapists, so why is this some sort of charming fantasy for people right now? All symbols are laden with content, whether people understand that or not.-lala

fyi, the sexuality thing didn't bother me (i'm gay) - it's just that somehow, B "knew" these things about A.  there has been a lot of unconscious teasing here - you should have been around during halloween!  i have never thought about the hundreds of items in here and the energy they carry with them.  guess my instinct to sage the place a few times in the past made sense.  i will take it a step further now.  thanks again!

and:

While I agree with Capitan, that it is best to focus on that which brings positive aspiration to one's life and thoughts, I think that you are also answering your own questions by what you've written. It's just that your answers are not on a physical or rational plane.
To wit:
Religious and symbolic artifacts, especially if they have been used in ceremonial or mystical ways carry stuff on 'em, whether you see that as vibes, entities or whatever. Remember a lot of magic and ritual stuff draws on stuff from the lower fourth dimension. Remember also the matrix ideas of this site where people are "open relays" for all kinds of negative stuff and also the "hive mentality" meaning that they are tuned-in to psychic stuff and then acting it out in an attacking way without being conscious of what they are doing. So, you are surrounded by people who have all kinds of magical (including Catholic) paraphenilia around, symbols and so forth, which you do not know the history of or what was done with them. K. is obviously involved in the occult, whether he knows it consciously or not, because he has all of these things around him. Symbolic and ritual artifacts are usually not just empty knick knacks even if people think that they are, they can carry energy and certain objects can be portals for energy, certain objects can have stuff attached to them, say something that is really old and that has been in a monastery for hundreds of years then finds its way to an import store. You have people around you (neo-pagans) that are probably doing magic and rituals that they think are positive or not harmful, but what do you really know about what they are drawing on and from, or what they are really worshipping. The fact that you felt compelled to fight back using negative magic indicates that that type of vibe making itself known to you. You have people using drugs, you have people sharing sexual information about themselves that it doesn't seem like you particularly want to know (boundary issues). So what does this tell you? You feel underlying covert hostility and disrespect toward yourself, but you can't be sure and you are second-guessing yourself that you are being paranoid. What does that tell you? Whether you look at it as just the people are "just" unconscious, or you think that they are being used by negative stuff, you are feeling hostility and that your boundaries are being invaded. This is a warning sign from yourself to yourself. I think Capitan is right to try to downplay alarmist fight or flight tendancies when dealing with this stuff, but I think you also have to look at what is really presenting itself in your immediate environment and then if you do not like it make plans on how to focus on putting yourself in an environment that makes you feel safer and more in control of your positive use of life force energy. If you have to expend a lot of energy protecting yourself or avoiding people, than you are probably not in the right milieu. Also, you may want to make it a point to be civil and friendly at all times but not get drawn into any type or protracted interactions with people. The pirate thing is interesting, because right before x-Mas I was invited to a pirate themed party and it was made out to be bring the whole family and bring a pirate thing for the gift exchange and all of that. There are a lot of these type of things based on a cult fascination with Pirates of the Carribean I and II. I've seen middle-aged people in the alternative community dressed like pirates walking around a cafe section of town. It seems very strange to me and I did not go to the Pirate party because even though I want to focus on fun and enjoying myself, I thought, "what do Pirates represent?" a lot of them were thieves, murderers and rapists, so why is this some sort of charming fantasy for people right now? All symbols are laden with content, whether people understand that or not.-lala

I am however making a distinction between ignoring what is going on, and not letting it get to me.  You  can still be aware, just don't dwell on the fear, sadness and anger, but whatever makes you happy.  The same thing goes with magic, in order to manifest harm and negative actions against another, you have to manifest that negativity through yourself, and you will feel the repercussions of the negative energies you are manifesting as they act upon you, and draw more negative energies towards you.

some more personal weirdness, because it doesn't hurt to share:

i think that the apartment i moved into on july 28, 2006 chose me because i'm me - at least the person posting the ad (i'll call him "K").  okay, the place is decked out in antiques... catholic/religious imagery, sort of pagan (african masks), extremely super gothic.  it is the apartment of a packrat with impeccable organization skills.   

now, i've discussed spirituality with K on numerous occasions - he knows that i am spiritual, but he appears to believe in *something* - he will mention his belief that all religions are basically after the same thing - and how he's open to anything except satanism.  for some reason he'll always point out how he's open to everything except satanism.  his natal chart writes about a potential for a high interest in the occult - something i couldn't even find surprising after the weirdness that ensued after moving here. 

i always wonder if he's involved in some sort of occult activity.  i shouldn't even say "wonder" because in some cases it is glaringly obvious that he is a part of whatever is going on.  it's just that... this sort of activity really confuses me.  is it wrong of me to just label him as one of them?  K told me that he had a "good feeling" about me when i looked at the apt, and it just seemed so strange a thing to say... but mostly because one of my harassers labeled me as "all about feelings" - which has some truth to it... i am very feely/intuitive.  it seemed like an appropriate thing to say to a feely/intuitive type, right?  one of our former roommates (we've had 3 since i've lived here) is a neo-pagan.  oh, the two of them have subtly made fun of me, in front of me - and i immediately sensed that she knew who i was when i met her.  just one of those things.

our new roommate (i'll call her "A") refers to herself as a "pirate" - and i'm actually curious about this... is this some sort of secret society/club/family name?  she has a monster family (apparently unusually large), btw.  because when i was going crazy in college park from group stalking/harassment, i remember two girls overly ragging on a song playing in CVS that i would sing all the time in my car (no coincidence) - one of them mentioned about her previous stint in "the pirates"... and i have seen "pirate" bumper stickers on people's cars before.  anyway, A is an every day kind of gal - but there's something there... she's just like the others.  she brings her male friends over - one of them made direct attacks toward me, and promptly disappeared once i decided that i'd avoid him whenever he came over.  she speaks german, too.  why do so many of these people speak german?  seriously, why?  it is truly fascinating to think that so many "normal" or "average" people may have these unbelievable, secretive ties through their families or friends.  very fascinating indeed. 

when A came to look at our apartment for the first time, K's best friend ("B" - a politician's daughter) was here, hamming it up (on two types of anti depressants, in addition to alcohol).  she approached A, and just right out asked her if she was gay... A answered that she is bi.  B then asks A if she smokes weed.  why yes, she does.  and wow, A happens to be from pennsylvania, just like B!  coincidence?  it's like ... they may not have met before, but maybe they knew OF each other, from circles and such.  B has also said that her friends remarked on how well she looks in red and black (those two colors specifically give me thoughts of occultism).  i get a "big club that you're not invited to" vibe from a lot from these interactions.  some of K's friends have REALLY rubbed me the wrong way.  oh, and they like to pat me on the back!  actually since this started a lot of people have patted me on the back.  not only is it patronizing, but it is damaging to my self-esteem.  A will be leaving soon, to go back to PA... i hope we don't get anyone too "playful" to move here.  i've observed that these people back off when i let them know i am aware of what they are doing. 

K values my talent, clearly - but there is this underlying feeling that i can't shake.  oh, he likes my talent, but how can i flourish when he attacks my intellect in so many subtle ways?  "i love to play with small minds" he says, talking about the cats... but most definitely also referring to me.  maybe my natal chart was right, and that i really am valued in underground circles for my art.  too bad they're not the most positive or ethical of people.

i'm at the point where i think the majority of americans are somehow in secret circles, and i just happen to be in the minority here. 

thanks everybody for your words and links.

Thank you, and these are good points, because when I was in the thick of trying to figure out what was happening to my nervous system (attack), I went into a period of research and development on the internet on hypnosis and things of that nature. (That is actually how I found the montalk sight, because a keyword on the homepage is hypnosis. I'd never heard of Monarch or MILABS or mind control theories or any of those things before.) One of the things that I came across in my study of hypnosis and occult use of hypnosis is that TV evangelists entrain and adopt a metronomic quality to their voice - rising and falling rhythm and repetition - which has a lulling, hypnotic effect. Then they come in with the power of suggestion: Give.  Sound vibration and lighting are key. So, in some ways they know that they are manipulating energy with their voices and by creating a charged atmosphere and so forth. Explains why the poorest people always support the richest churches. Hypnosis.
... and now that you mention it, I've met teenagers who went to graveyards and summoned up stuff and played with ouija boards and opened up portals and stuff, so I know it's all true. My main point in life awareness right now, is to acknowledge all the really weird things I've experienced and to acccept that they are as real as anything else that people experience, I don't know why it has taken me so long to "get" it.
-lala

As to whether people can be into "black magic" and not know about it---
umm, you seem to be forgetting all the TV evangelists and their
followers (suckers) who believe that by tithing double to their church that
prosperity will follow.  Or bored kids who want to have adventures like
they see in those Village of the Damned movies.
I see A LOT of people who are unconsciously doing what I consider black
magic and they're doing it by default.

STO is incompatible with 'magic spells'.

Except, for example, creating, singing, dancing and acting a poem (in Imagination if not in action) with your all your heart, in a pure and sincere STO situation. In short, Love.

Notice that I said that 'magic spells' are incompatible with STO. To 'put a spell onto someone or something' is intrinsically STS.

What I describe next (creating, singing, dancing and acting a poem (in Imagination if not in action) with your all your heart, in a pure and sincere STO situation) can be qualified as white magic. Which doesn't need 'spells' or potions, or whatever ritual. It must be moved by pure love. This pure love is STO is white magic.

If I do work to heal someone or do healing on the land to clear out icky vibrations and illness -- that's coming from STO intentions.  Unless I'm working on ME, which might arguably be more STS in intention since it's me I'm trying to heal.

White magic is STO.  It's the "Great work" of trying to shift energies here on this planet from STS to STO.  It's the great work of trying to bring love onto this planet in greater quantities, and to reverse decay, ugliness, and harshness.  Jesus was the ultimate white magician, and there have been many others who have walked this planet.

Any time you draw a line and say "This is what is going to happen, NOW" and that happening comes from an STO intention, seeking an STO result, that's a good thing, I believe.

Also, self-defensive work, while some people might say it's STS, can also be STO.  What use am I to others if I allow dark forces to kill me?  I think I have every right to use whatever means are at my disposal to protect myself.  Yeah, maybe the act of protecting myself is STS in  origin, but I've bought myself more years or days or whatever to be of service to STO actions on this planet.

Every day we are performing  magic. Magic is simply aligning your mind/emotions and your actions with the intention to create something.  We do this 24/7.  A lot of what we do becomes "miscreation," resulting in negative effects or situations we don't want, because we're not aware that everything we are doing, everything we are feeling, generates events and circumstances.

Creating our reality is magic.  That's what we do every day through the vibration we hold in our hearts and our minds.

Just my thoughts, anyway!

LipstickMystic aka Jennifer

Post-modern black magic is mind boggling because it is so "just folks."-lala

I love the way you see things, lala. 

I lived for three years in a v small town not far from here that appears on the surface as quaint and interesting and artistic and alternative.  BUT.  Nasty things happened to good people, eventually.  And weird synchros and just lots of weird stuff.  From all sides, you just couldn't pick em.  To begin with anyway.  My brother, who was in the same town for much longer than me and had an even more intense experience there says that : "You can always count on the rednecks to be rednecks, but the hippies can turn at any moment".  He also theorises that the bad crop of mushies that went around in '83 explains everything.

Seriously, it is also an area that has a long history (like the whole country, like 40,000 years in mainstream history books) with the indigenous people, which includes in relatively more recent times the massacres and regular slaughter of same in some of their most sacred and meaningful places.  The sort of genetic sense of history that 'we' of european descent can only remember in myth.  To those that lived in Australia and other places without european disturbance for so long, that history is unbroken law.  So, the vibe of utter betrayal of the human spirit is present always, even under the quaint and peaceful facade.

The point of all this, is that the energy you seek to create, and the intention with which you create them, will hang around, they will be real.  Think about what you really are wanting to deal with on a day to day basis.  Ditch the bastards.  And start something that is yours.  No spells required.  Come out from under the spell.  It is a nothing.  Look the other way.  Have a nice day. 

Be free, if you want.

Except, for example, creating, singing, dancing and acting a poem (in Imagination if not in action) with your all your heart, in a pure and sincere STO situation. In short, Love.