there are NO good byes.   laugh all the way.  love all the way.   PARTY all the way,  all the way,  all the way,  home.

Daisy wrote: There are many anecdotes from people who have called on God, Jesus or whatever during a demonic attack or alien abduction and been saved,

Saved from what?  Finding a way out of the attack by your own self?  Helplessly calling on someone or something to save you instead of saving yourself? Is that salvation? Salvation is personal responsibility.  Why should anyone/thing do it for you?

Well sure, if you know how to access your power to combat forces greater than yourself, then by all means use it. I don't disagree with your idea of salvation being the responsibility of the individual. But if you're being attacked by negative forces and you can't defeat them all by yourself, why not call for help from a higher power that you trust? Unless you're too proud to admit that you need help. (I don't mean you personally Pamela, just speaking generally here)

To be honest I think faith and trust are underrated when it comes to spiritual matters, as if they equate to being undiscerning or naive. I'm not saying it isn't important to be careful who or what you align yourself with because it is - discernment and judgement are crucial. But that doesn't mean that you should always be doubtful or suspicious of everything, as that mindset will hold you back in my experience. When I adopted the "believe in nothing and trust no one" approach, I became confused and apathetic and my growth came to a halt. Using your discernment to determine whether or not a teaching/entity/whatever is trustworthy is not merely an intellectual thing and for that reason I dislike engaging in those kinds of round-in-circles paranoid "what if" thought processes. So I am respectfully ducking out of this now (not that there's much time left to post here anyway) in acceptance of the fact that different people have different perspectives.

As this will very probably be my last post here, I wish you all well on your journey.

Daisy wrote: There are many anecdotes from people who have called on God, Jesus or whatever during a demonic attack or alien abduction and been saved,

Saved from what?  Finding a way out of the attack by your own self?  Helplessly calling on someone or something to save you instead of saving yourself? Is that salvation? Salvation is personal responsibility.  Why should anyone/thing do it for you?

Well, maybe these people  were "saved" to lull them into a false sense of security and make them believe that calling that diety will deliver them.  Maybe when they physically die and get attacked by the demonic forces that are lazering in on them and ready to pounce on them and  take their "soul" and they have been trained (by themselves) to waste time calling out for a false deity, maybe they'll get a little surprise.  The stakes are pretty high to not consider different angles of thought and action.

If you notice, my remarks are tongue in cheek.  I don't have a bible, Pooh or otherwise.  I don't think god has an email address.  I wouldn't contact him if he did.  I simply pointed out that some of their "facts" weren't all that factual.  I don't believe in name calling or nasty confrontation so I use humor.  Enough, people relax, I am having fun, but I'm not being cruel.

An important fact that was overlooked was that HPB may have been right about the very thing that (they) disagree with.  If you wanted to empower an entity by having their name repeated millions of times a day why not switch the names.  Lucifer is the "light bearer" the informant of the truth.  Now I'm not going to get into Lucifer because I don't get into names and I have a different slant on what the "devil" is.  BUT, let's say that there was a negative deity and there was a positive one and every time their name was said they gained empowerment (AS IN CALLING FORTH).  If I wanted that to happen, I'd switch their names.  Something to consider.

The bible was written 300+ years post the death of (the supposed) Jesus Christ.  I sincerely doubt that Jesus wrote the very few (in red) remarks in the bible and told his followers to throw them in in a few hundred years and try and get it right.  The bible has also been retranslated 125 times into all different languages.  There is no way to directly translate Aramaic into English (nor any other language…I’m sure you’ve heard it’s an old language) nor visa versa.  All of the translations were done by people with agendas, like kings and other rulers. We are their surfs, so it stands to reason they'd want us to be enlightened so they'd help us.

As i said "the bible hardly records what Jesus said".  There are very few quotes.  But what is there can be diciphered even after the translations.  I have often given interpretations which reveal a multi-levelled meaning of certain scriptural quotes.  Deep truths are revealed in those quotes so someone has done a fair job in writing them and in translating them.  Francis Bacon participated in the translations of the King James version of the bible.  Bacon became an Adept who later became the Count St Germain who worked with Blavatsky's sponsors.  Because Bacon played an influential role in Rosicrucianism and Freemasonry he has been slandered by some modern "researchers" interested only in character assasination.  St Germain is pictured with El Morya And Koothumi standing behind Helena Petrovna Blavatsky in a famous photograph from around the 1870s.  Koothumi was St Francis of Assisi (a close disciple of Jesus) and El Morya was, among other historical greats, treated badly by the two King Henrys.(the soul of Peter).  Dharma and Karma, draw souls together in mutual service.   

There's nothing unusual in spiritual communion/resonance with spiritual beings.  It is natural to recognise the familiar.  Something like picking your mother's face out of a crowded room. 

I did adress all the issues you pointed out to me and i do respect the right of everyone to think for themselves, that's why i contribute.   I informed anyone who is interested that HPB was the same soul as Peter.  You can determine the veracity of that for yourself but you questioned me about it and i gave you an honest answer.  Others, who have not expressed the desire to censor me, might be more interested than yourself.  Wherever i've included Jesus or Christ in a thread, which is quite often, i have seen the relevance.  Others have seen it too and have expressed no offense (on that score at least).  Sometimes they've expressed their appreciation.  Your anti- HPB stance (which you're entitled to) is turning into an anti- nexus stance (which you're also entitled to).  You can challenge me if you want but if you have any bones to pick with God i suggest you take them up with God.  God can answer all your questions about what is true or false in the bible and anywhere else.   

As to "getting Jesus into HPB" it was quite unavoidable given that HPB's soul was once Jesus' disciple Peter and given that Jesus is a part of the Great White Brotherhood (White= white light) which sponsored the soul of Peter in Blavatsky's TS works.  The connections between all these people have been discussed for nearly 70 yrs in the esoteric literature and i accept that it is true.  You wondered why the TS was pitched so high and i gave an explanation which necessarilly included the work of the brotherhood which sponsored HPB.  Would you prefer people kept their replies within more acceptable parameters?  Leave out the truth as they see it perhaps?   

The thing that upset me was the distortions on lucifer.  It caused me some grief to find it amongst HPB work.  No, lucifer is not the way as HPB said.  Lucifer means light and lucifer was a great being of light.  But he eventually refused to serve the Christ in All and was cast out of the higher realms (with his loyal cohorts) into the physical and astral planes.  He became a self styled enemy of God.  In revenge they took it out on us as we also fell into duality consciousness and became vulnerable to their machinations.

As far as HPBs work being "vital and true when it coincided with yours" what can i say PJ?  Who determines the truth of anything for myself but myself?  And who determines it for you but yourself?  We have our discussion and others decide for themselves.  The things i don't know much about i don't talk much about.  I am not pretending to know it all.  The little i know, i talk about and like anyone, i share what i see is true.  There is nothing unhealthy about that.   

You're welcome to pick apart anything i say.  If you think something is crap there's nothing wrong with holding it up and showing me why you think it is.  That's better than trying to censor me.  Everyone here is capable of making up their own mind about the quality and source of ideas.

The bible was written 300+ years post the death of (the supposed) Jesus Christ.  I sincerely doubt that Jesus wrote the very few (in red) remarks in the bible and told his followers to throw them in in a few hundred years and try and get it right.
The bible has also been retranslated 125 times into all different languages.  There is no way to directly translate Aramaic into English (nor any other language…I’m sure you’ve heard it’s an old language) nor visa versa.  All of the translations were done by people with agendas, like kings and other rulers. We are their surfs, so it stands to reason they'd want us to be enlightened so they'd help us.   

If you are a descendent the Jesus' spirit then it sure seems your time and effort could be better utilized in a manner more productive than in not addressing the issues I pointed out.  Surely, you are needed more desperately somewhere (other than NR) where it seems most of us can think for ourselves.  You needed to start a Jesus thread and there you could expound upon the subject to your hearts content instead of interjecting Jesus into threads (constantly) and throwing the thread.  You even got him into HPB.  I'd be curious to know if you think God also wrote his portion of the bible.  If he did, I have a few bones to pick with him.  Would you ask him if he did?  If he did would you please include his email address in your next response to me. I'm assuming your close connection with Jesus makes you privy to his familial info.

PS. If HPB was off on Lucifer being the light and the way (which is what I THINK you are saying and I KNOW is what she said) could it possibly be that she was off on other stuff?  Or maybe her channeling was vital and true when it coincided with yours.  So is Lucifer the way as HPB said?  And why not?  Things (like names of dieties...lucifer does mean the light and clarity as in lucid) could their names have been reversed, way back when, to throw off humanity from the truth…oh, wait, that has never and cannot happen. 

There is such a thing as letting it rest because, honestly, I could pick apart your post and point out a bunch of (I apologize, but there's not other word for it) crap, but there's no point.  I don't want you to think differently, your truth is your truth, but there a lot of people that subscribe that need to know that your truth may not be the only truth (which is how you present it).

nexus wrote: Apparantly the soul of Helena Blavatsky was the same soul of Peter, Jesus disciple.

Apparently to whom?

Apparantly to me.  Jesus and other Adepts have been behind quite a few individuals and organisations most especially since the 1800s as part of a new dispensation to explain the ancient mysteries.  I personally haven't read the record of the soul of HPBlavatsky.  But i have found the spiritual presence of the master Jesus and EL Morya in the present.  By that spirit, which i confirm by my own spirit, i recognise their teaching where it appears in form.  That includes one of their present endeavours at www.askrealjesus.com    I recognise the website as the work of Jesus and it is one place where the subject of the Theosophical Society and the soul of HP Blavatsky are discussed in brief.  Another website which puts Theosophy into historical context (of several dispensations over the last ~150 years) is:  www.alpheus.org   It is the work of someone recording some of the important work of the masters during that time frame.  It sheds some light on some of the people and outer organisations which the brotherhood has been involved with. 

Human beings are a part of the chain of hierarchy and play a role in the interface between spirit and matter.  It is an imperfect interface because human beings are imperfect.  But if a gross error occurs (due to flaws in the "channel")  then the Adepts will always correct it in the moving caravan of progressive revelation.  They never leave it undone.  Some people may find that whole process dissagreeable, but humanity have not been very receptive to the direct presence of the Adepts or their messengers as a whole and have often rejected them throughout all history.  So the Adepts choose their vessels and they have their reasons for who they choose.  No one dispensation through any one organisation/person can contain everything that can be told.  But each one is a release of importance, as i said, for specific reasons...... Theosophy being a case in point.  Not every release of teaching is going to personally appeal to each of us.  So there is something for everyone in this new dispensation as it appears in different places. 

Everyone who gives a teaching from the spiritual level is a channel.  Either the concepts are given (from the Christ mind of the Adept) to the mind of the channel, in which case the channel has discretion as to the exact language to use.....  Or the direct words are recieved, or, a combination of both.  I have experienced the process myself on occasion.  It says somewhere in scripture  "The spirit of the Lord is subject to the prophets".  That is a statement about the process of spiritual revelation through the mind of a messenger.   If the messenger says "aint" instead of "isn't" then the spiritual message will contain the word "aint".  (most messengers can do better than "aint").  The point is that the spiritual flow will be impressed by the vocabulary and mental concepts already held in the mind of the messenger.  On rare occasions a messenger is in total submission to spirit so that language and concepts beyond the outer mind (of the messenger) are transferred.  Lesser spirits can accomplish a similar thing so care is needed to discern the source.

Apart from the distortions evident in Blavatsky's work, (eg. the teaching on lucifer) the Theosophical Society wasn't her personal agenda.  She originally accepted El Morya and Koothumi who had attained spiritual oneness with the Christ Self.  They were at that time, unascended Adepts.  One with spirit, the "agenda" of the Adepts was the will of hierarchy who also are one with spirit.  We don't know all the details of what HPB was shown nor the preparations made for her messengership.  But she was chosen for that role and she accepted the Adepts as genuine representatives of the spiritual hierarchy.

Congratulations are not in order for me.  Whether or not i personally gained anything from Theosophy (i did) is not the prime consideration.  Did it serve it's purposes at that time from the point of view of it's sponsors?  Like all spiritual revelation released into the cauldron of relativity, it was a relative success.  There is nothing that cannot be critically examined and the TS can be more easily placed within it's historical context by understanding it's specific objectives.  Clearly it wasn't going to appeal to 100% of humanity.  Not with the majority of the world comfortable in their fundamentalism and defensive of their dogma.  The caravan has moved on Pamelajean.  No organisation can contain the flow of the river of life if it does not transcend itself.  The spirit, and the Adepts who fully embody it, continue to open new vessels into which they pour the deep things of God.  Blavatsky broke bread with us and i am grateful for that.     

Firstly we don't know that Jesus didn't write himself.  We do know that scripture hardly records what Jesus said during his 3 year mission.  Only fragments are left to us and whatever Jesus may have written cannot be found or identified as his personal writings.  Who accepted Jesus at the time?  Not many.  It is written in scripture that Jesus spoke to the multitude in parables but when alone with his disciples (more than 12) he "expounded all things".  A master can transfer his Christ- consciousness to the disciple.  He can transfer more than an intellectual understanding of the teaching.  So Jesus exposition would have been deep for those who could recieve it and on that score nothing has changed.  This couldn't be done for the masses at that time because they weren't ready.  As always, most people were deeply enslaved and embraced their enslavers.  His public teachings were revolutionary enough, contrary enough, to the "law" as it was taught by the false priests. 

Jesus took a bold step on the path of progressive revelation in directly challenging the priest class and their "law".  He gave quite a lot for people at all levels of consciousness as they were able to recieve it.  What he gave was intended to be truthfully shared and expounded upon (with his inspiration) during the age of pisces.  But knowing the serpentine forces at large in the world he knew there was every chance that his offering would be distorted and used to enslave.  There is no way around it.  Any spiritual truth released into the plane of relativity can be inverted to say the opposite.  A lifeline can be turned into a noose.  That's the way of the world in the grips of the mind of anti-christ.  So, in the timeless fashion of progressive revelation, Jesus gave what could be given for the times in which he appeared.  But he hasn't disappeared.  He is still here.  Can he be identified?  Still one with Christ, can he be discerned behind the familiar form of a man? or a woman?  Christ always appears in form.  As it was 2000 years ago we are faced with the same test today.  The questions are still relevant to all of us.  Can we discern Christ and anti- christ behind familiar forms?.  Do we imagine that the form must be perfect (according to preconcieved notions of perfection) in order to reveal the formless Christ?  A certain non- attachment to form is needed to sort it out.  If we remain in the human intellect we can't sort it.  What we have to do is find the inner- Christ (perhaps with the help of one of the Adept's teachings that we can appreciate) ---- and don't forget that some christic mystics found the inner- Christ in their deep recognition of Christ in scripture (so it can be found in an apparently 'simple' teaching)-----  Then we will be able to open any book or webpage and see more clearly where it does or does not coincide with truth.

I also didn't say I couldn't understand HPB, I said I didn't want to understand her because I felt her stuff was polluted.

That's not a slam on HPB, it's my choice to learn from whom I choose. I, personally, picked up a creepy vibs from HPB via her writing, her pictures and her followers so I left it alone. 

You say she wrote for the masses, I say not.  Let's leave it at that and everyone go night night.

I want to say again, that the time H. P. Blavatsky was submitting her material in the world including America, many people were at least as intelligent as her.  I've read some of her critics that actually expressed an intellect that possibly suppassed hers.  The dumbing down of Americans began right about the same time that Wilson enterred into WWI.  The people like George Soros and his peers.  By the way, he is ranked 80th in wealth of the entire globe.  Only 79 people in the world richer than him.  He would like all the people to be equal in intelligence.  It is easier to dumb down than raise up intellect.  I suppose the logic being that we would all homogenize better.  I find this idiotic.  You get more misery and harm from ignorance than even from supposed evil leaders.  Intellect is what tames all the brutality that arises from the purely emotional mind.  I suppose that this socialistic oligarchy of rich and intellectually minded people like George Soros would manage all of us ignorant people which make up the brutal mob.  That is why George Soros and his kind hate Bush so much.  Bush and the actions he has taken have directed even more hatred than existed before, toward the Jews.  Too bad, so sad.  f*ck the Jews and their insideous plans that have been unfolding in America for decades.  I don't like Bush either, but in my case, I will probably never like any political leader, military dictator, socialistic oligarchy.  Leaders in America that want to bend over backwards to lick the butt of people in other nations, in a manner to appease them, make me sick.  They make the object of their appeasement attempts sick also.  They only see it as weakness. 

I know I went off topic, but I really don't care anyway, what you think about Theosophy.  It was good enough for Ghandi.  I want to type this quote, from Purucker, "One thing to be on guard against is to read any single line of these Christian Scriptures as recounting an actual historical physical event.  Every main thought or idea in the Christian Scriptures is allegorical and refers directly to the cycle of initiation and to some of the teaching given during the initiation-ceremonies.  Now this warning does not mean that there is no pragmatical or historical matter in the pages of the Christian New Testament, for there certainly is.  Such things as the names of towns, references to the Roman Imperium, or to geographical districts, and such other matters, are probably more or less correctly related.  The warning is directed against taking as 'historical' what is so distinctly allegory and emblematic symbolology."

I look more to Jesus as a concept, such as Christ Consciousness.  I see this Christ Consciousness as Intellect.  We all operate from emotion, and from there comes passions and desires.  This is what we cannot change.  We can only try to evolve it, and utilize Intellect as one of the main tools to do this.  Just look at all the political discussion and witness how pathos is the main form of arriving at conclusion.  Logos is utilized until the person runs out of evidence and fact, then pathos comes back to fill the void with violent rhetoric.  Ethos is simply something that is the target of attack.  That is low when the only form in which ethos's is utilized, is when it is the subject of attack with insinuation. 

Appollonius of Tyre and Jesus were both high Initiates and possessed spiritual and divine abilities, I don't know why Appollonius remained among the upper elite, the wealthy, while Jesus remained among the masses.  Actually I do, but I'm not going to say. 

At this time, we still have information available to us, it can be used to bring us closer to ascension.  The government has not closed down the internet adequately, yet.  I don't see myself as intellectual enough to ascend in this lifetime, but I can at least find out what I need to do to tame my emotional center.  Or rather, evolve it.  Ignorance is simply living in accordance to the dictates of my passions, what I'm attracted to or repulsed from.  Ignorant mobs have been used as tools many times throughout history.  Any conclusion arrived at through emotions is likely to be wrong.  I won't listen to defense of emotions.  They are lower than intellect in the scheme of things, at least on this plane.  Intuition is higher, but it kicks in of its own accord, I don't have the reins of control on intuition.

nexus wrote: Apparantly the soul of Helena Blavatsky was the same soul of Peter, Jesus disciple.

Apparently to whom?

Like I said, and simply so, SHE CHANNELED. 

Congratulations to you for being in that 1% of the population to which HPB (aka Peter) directed her agenda.

Jesus was an educated man.  According to EVERYTHING, he attended intense schooling all the way to the age of 22.  Supposedly, he studied in esoteric studies and in the mystery schools.  He HAS to have been educated more than nearly any living being at that time.  Then why didn't Jesus, himself, write what he wanted to pass on to the masses?  Do you think Jesus was so feeble of mind and soul that he had to rely on Peter, his disciple (and even more ridiculous) HPB AS PETER'S interpreter (or soul) to relate ANYTHING accurately.  She CHANNELED, and heaven only knows "what".

Good grief.  Me and my miniscule mentality are out of here.

"Theosophy was designed to appeal to the many -often highly intelligent and intellectual- people who had become disillusioned with official christianity and were now on the brink of being sucked into the black hole of scientific materialism.  Some of these people were still open to spirituality but they had been so disappointed by christianity that they were more open to eastern philosophy, and that is one reason why theosophy was given an eastern bent."

Another reason for the eastern bent, that i am familiar with, is that under British rule the Indians and their spiritual culture were being devalued in an increasingly rational world. (a rational world which the Adepts were also sponsoring along with the advances in the sciences.)  The intellectual climate was such that scientific materialism was devaluing what was really India's greatest gift to the world.... it's spiritual heritage.  It was HP Blavatsky's works, under the direct influence of El Morya, Koot-humi and Dwal kul that helped change the intellectual climate in the west toward the east.  A lot of the people attracted to Theosophy were involved in the social sciences, the arts, politics and high society in general and had influence beyond the average person.  Theosophy tempered the prevailing mindset and it might not be an exaggeration to suppose that it played an influential role in the eventual independence of India from Britain.  Without it's influence the prevailing mindset of Indians as 'coolies' and 'superstitious barbarians' may have been more difficult to overcome.

When evaluating any of hierarchy's dispensations it's worth considering them in the context of the times in which they appear and the specific goals of specific organisations.  The Adepts try to answer the mass consciousness as well as the specific needs of individual souls.  So in different dispensations they present different angles of the whole to appeal to souls at different levels of awareness and/or to accomplish a specific purpose in guiding the world onward and upward where possible.  All this within the law of freewill and love for humanity. The brotherhood is results oriented. They work inspirationally to influence the arts, sciences, government, law, medicine, philosophy, education, spirituality.... every area of life..... to try to advance the common weal and to raise the consciousness of all souls open to their influence.  They don't choose perfect people to sponsor as messengers either.  It will sometimes be a soul with heavy karmic responsibilities, so the sponsorship is as a much a chance to right past wrongs as everything else.  For that reason the dispensations don't always run smoothly or go to plan.  For example, Alice Bailey lost the direct association with Dwal Kul early on in her work and Jiddu Krishnamurti dismissed his sponsors refusing to fulfill the dispensation at all.  According to Jesus, Helena Blavatsky went quite off the rails by battling the christian churches and suggesting eventually that Lucifer was the true savior of humanity not Jesus.

Apparantly the soul of Helena Blavatsky was the same soul of Peter, Jesus disciple.  Jesus chose Peter as one of the 12 disciples to give him opportunity due to past karmic ties.  Evidently Peter tried to get Jesus to adapt to the world rather than have this world adapt to Christ.  And Peter eventually denied the Christ before men.  Peter also incarnated as King Henry the 2nd and King Henry the 8th.  Both times he had El Morya beheaded, firstly when Morya was Thomas a' Beckett and secondly when he was Thomas More.  So Helena Blavatsky was not perfect but the law allowed her the opportunities she got to atone for her mistakes.  El Morya, Koothumi and Dwahl Kul were unascended Adepts at the time they sponsored HPB and all 3 ascended over the next 2 or 3 decades.  Blavatsky has not ascended.  It's worth pointing out that HPB has had some glowing references as well as poor ones from her contemporaries.  Her intellectual and spiritual powers were marvelled over by some accounts.  But that sort of power is the direct result/effect of the sponsorship of the Adepts.  That is the power which the spiritual Adepts have.  They can transfer their own attainment of the Christ mind to the disciple.... such that the disciple appears far more adept than they might otherwise be.  I don't mean constantly, but for the dictation of the teachings and certain other times the disciple is quickened and raised in consciousness for a purpose.  Such a person has to beware of spiritual pride and by some accounts HPB fell into that habit.

we made each other THINK  and  FEEL.  thats how we catalyze'd  the info.  our study of the coolest stuff lead us to the coolest stuff.  i always see a ton more and try to fit it together but im so tired of typing.  and couldnt possibly get it on here in posts, got way too lazy alot of the time.  i admit it.  and then theres that sense of not wanting to go too far or sound too preachy or insistent.  can u believe i said that?!@  nah.  and then i wanna shout and yell and spit and jump up and down and then i stop myself and settle for or pretend we got more info weaved together by telepathic intent.  which needs to be, and is, everyday PSI.  not something we leave in separation to another day or time, but ALL THE DAMN TIME.  it must be done, practiced, honed, clarified, made real.

Those words really reached me...in all honesty, it kinda sums up what i think and feel at most times. Its soo difficult to truly express
or BE what one is experiencing at the moment, over the internet, yet we all come so close to gel-ing with each others vibes(even when it is different from our own...all part of the learning process imho).That telephatic synchronisity is what, i think we
will have to accept clarify and have more faith in, as the manifesting effects of the wave become more and more obvious. It fels like
a controlled sense of excitement within...like going on a first date or the night before an adventure trip or something..i don' know zactly:rolleyes:

but as you say it must be honed..and i add moment by conscious moment

thank you all for being here, looking forward to ND

theres no way id ever slap u up the head, u've never done anything to deserve that and i dont think that way.  instead we'd nod a hearty acknowledgement to each other, i'd pat ur head, u'd pat mine, we'd maybe light up a smoke, and pour a couple out of the noble honor to simply share nice manners.  ive always enjoyed and learned from ur posts, and those of many many others'.  we've shared so much and transferred info from brain to brain, to heart.  right where the soul is seated.  right there.  if i can remember rightly, we even mapped that out once in a post, and said it was something like 1.5-2 inches up and over, from the liver.  close, or something like that.  too lazy to go and look.  but we said so.  u, and my friends here, have given me the best compliments an ex-priest who did 'bad', teacher for the FREEDOM of the/my people, could ever have.  to make one think, and explore, in order to get past believing, so one will KNOW.   and hold steady.