in the house hold that i'm staying in, incidentally, a close relative of someone just passed away a couple of days ago and there's a lady here who's in mourning -- i have no idea if there's any correlation between the two incidents, and actually, from my own gut feeling, i'd say maybe the two weren't related - but who knows ...

but what's interesting in this whole thing is about death ...

seeing what goes on with people, and with myself - i had to ask again - do i really understand this thing called death ? and how does it relate to my daily life ?

something prompted me to visit the K website - i clicked on the latest video - it was on this subject ... and related to the original thing i started this topic with - consciousness and its content ... there's also conversation about analysis as paralysis ... really interesting stuff if you ask me, & here it is:

http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/index.php? … &menu=

When I said 'false lust' above , I meant just that- was it ever really your own?
(rhetorical)

Another twisted construct of [the matrix]?

A purposeful re-direction of energy, ie. wasted youth on fighting one's own "hormones" only to find the romanticism was hardly worth the imagined enchantment.....

How much thought and time spent fantasizing as adolescents and young men?
(speaking for myself, was everyfrigginsecond)

Joy vs. pleasure?
I dunno, I suppose pleasure comes from, or by the body, and joy from the heart....

It occurred to me I don't have much of either......... c'est la vie.

For me, it's not what to do with the desire, it's how to get some back.

....But my own, not some imprint of "civilization" I have mistakenly taken to be mine.

In America, the pinnacle of beauty has always been presented as the Marilyn Monroe types, or Scandinavian blondes. Well, I am a white anglosaxon of English, Irish and French descent, but I've found Oriental women to be absolutely striking. I see beauty in all races, oriental women top the list for me tho.

So for me, that is anti-archetypal, and is probably therefore a true desire.

So if it seems I am picking things apart at an atomic level, I am. One 'a my habits ;-)                       
                                                      J

(interesting quote you have by Mitch Hedberg - my favorite kind of sleep as well - deep dreamless slumber

@ home - no one was covered up - just in public (iran) - it's like a "hijab"/headscarf that the women wear - not fully covered face, just the hair - but with full-length body wear - sometimes black - it's different now tho

like you were saying, they are affraid of beauty - a woman's natural beauty - scared because of the feelings of desire it can stir up - they don't know what to do with that feeling - so called religious people made this a law - religious law - that women need to be covered up so as not to tempt men - that's what i think ...

so silly of course ... and sad

desire seems to be a problem for many peoples of the world - what to do with it ?

i think suppression or resistance gives the very thing that's being resisted more strength or continuity - regardless of the context - i think that's a law or something ... i wonder if that had anything to do with me being such lustful boy in university ? after resisting those natural feelings (my conditioning?) & feeling deprived for so long, i went girl crazy ... lost my marbles and turned into a fiend of sorts - lots of heart-ache and wasted energy -- glad i got to experience it for myself and make contact with those things inside myself tho - to be sure ... seems that's the best way to learn

so what about pleasure vs. joy/happiness ? how does something turn into a pleasure ? what's the role of memory and thought in all this? is there any relationship at all between pleasure & joy/happiness ? good questions, no doubt - check this: http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/index.php? … &menu=

Blue,

i'm not familiar with Theun Mares - but - i have no technique for watching myself - there's no need for one ... simplest way of explaining my motivation for watching is : i care for what's going on - inside & out, that's why attention is present

You may wonder what she looks like with the material veil removed, I may wonder what she IS like with the preconceptions and generalizations imposed by society removed.

I had that irrational fear also, the image of beauty is to be worshipped, somehow we are not even worthy to look upon such beauty, if we possess even the SLIGHTEST grain of insecurity.

This is a phenomenon which is extremely destructive to people's understanding of one another, and of the opposite sex.

There's supposed to be sexual tension, in the west that myth is perpetuated by "beauty=sexuality"

In the east, it seems to be because anything forbidden will produce a "guilty conscience" if you look too long, you have unhealthy amounts of lust in your heart and mind.

They create that false lust, nobody questions it, it's tradition.

That shyness? That is the aware person's gut reaction to a situation we are 'supposed' to come at in one frame of mind, when deep down we know those are not our true intentions, the backlash of which would be the woman treating the man as if he is having lustful thoughts, even when he is not.

It is a nasty little game, neither side really wants it that way, I cannot believe a thinking person would, but that is the conditioning that has been engrained, when we find someone who is also unwilling to play that game, we KNOW it.

And that IS a beautiul thing!

Thanks for sharing that OC,     J

Have you read the Theun Mares volumes that Montalk posted?

What you are describing there is all covered beautifully by the Toltec Warrior 'stalking' his own perceptions.  I am only new to this path, and like yourself, lots of work to do, but the Mares material certainly gives you good techniques, which seem to be in line with your 'modus operandi', and could help you even more.

Love the matrix man btw.

yes, this is the humour section - and i wanted to share this animated gif 'cause i think it's nifty ... (visuals are so much fun sometimes) ...

but in all seriousness ... actually i don't know how serious i wanna get on this topic --- but i do get a sense that people get conditioned in various ways (attitude, behaviour, beliefs, etc.) based on their background - & of course i'm including myself in this ...

to give a specific example regarding myself --- as far as i could remember when i was a very young kid - i was always shy of women - like - super shy and almost affraid - it was a crazy phenomenon ... and this was actually more so with women i found attractive, actually -- i could hardly communicate sometimes ... this was from like age 6-7 or something like that ...

i don't know if this is something i was carrying over from previous life - or something i picked up this life somehow or what ? but i get a sense somehow that it was related to culture - there's a very strong disconnect between men and women where i'm from - not in the particular household i was raised in - but in the general community - the whole country - women were always covered up - so many examples of women being treated completely differently than men ... so that's what i mean by 'cultural conditioning' and how i think it may have had an impact on me - but who knows - maybe there's other factors or forces playing in on this as well ... i really can't say for certain what it was/is ...

i did eventually get over my shyness (to a certain extent, anyways -- still have intimacy issues) -- but only in the middle of highschool was i learning to open up more to girls and actually interacting more with the opposite sex ... i guess part of what helped me was actually being aware of myself the way i was -- i knew it was rediculous -- but it was never really something i hated myself for or anything - when i became totally aware of it i was like during those moments when it was happening, i was like - o ya - well, look at that - and that's sort of when the problem started dissipating ...

anyhow - back to thing about consciousness being its content ... here's what i think:  you're not what you think you are - you're what you think ...

that seems to be difficult for a lot of people - and understandably so -- i can't claim for certain that what i'm professing here is the truth -- this is just a kid trying to express what he's observing for himself ... kind of a sensitive area perhaps to go into as well -- someone was saying in another thread about inserting memories of good times when a feeling of depression comes around - something to that affect -- man, whatever works - go for it ... but i look at that and to me - that's conflict ... you're experiencing/feeling one thing - and you're trying to move away from it -- so you're in conflict with yourself ...

i was 'shy' - what helped me was not trying not to be shy - but just seeing the shyness - seeing the fear in myself as it was when it was happening ... 

this leads into the idea of control -- that we have to learn to discpline and control ourselves emotionally, physically, etc. etc... well - one train of thought says watching - self observation, is its own discipline -- and in that very awareness of what is, the possiblity for change exists - and only through that awareness of the fact ... being able to make contact with the fact, moves one beyond it ...

sounds like i'm preaching K stuff again - but i can swear by this stuff as i'm seeing the effects in my own life ...

self-awareness is related to 'quiet mind' - when you're aware of your thoughts n feelings as they are - the watching in itself makes the mind quiet - when you can face yourself without moving away - which means without fear - and also without identifying with, which is opposite side of the coin - that's how you open up to the subconscious ... things that are hidden away start popping up - and you can face those things ... lots of layers to go through, at least for me - but knowledge of self is the map, destination: unknown ...