Those places are the same, saggittari are born in the same part of the year, even if the stars behind the sun are no longer that constellation.

The constellations didn't define the zodiac, the zodiac suggested the constellations.

The constellations were only every symbolic of the knowledge contained in the signs, the signs being archetypes of universal creation that can still to this day be extrapolated from the stars (which are different than in the past). So the constellation Scorpio came up *approximately* when the *specific* energy of that *archetype* took effect, that the nature of this energy may be symbolized metaphorically in the image of a Scorpion... this still holds true today even if the stars are placed differently, because it was only an analogy... we could make up new analogies today that accord with present constellations, but as you say, that would be impractical. I say that the constellations are approximate even though astrology is down to the minute, because clearly if a star off in the distance were moved one mile here or there, to us it would make virtually no difference, in terms of perspective.

Due to precession they're out of phase, what's important is the sun-earth relation, which defines the prominent current in that phase of the year. So the "signs" aren't lined up with constellations, but it's impractical to move either.

I find the thought of "moving the signs to be with the stars" arbitrary, and it ignores the real relationship. No need to redraw constellations or move the signs, just know why it is how it is and use it as far as it works for you.

It is on the web at

http://www.astrolog.org/astrolog.htm

On a personal note I have discovered that I seem to get a more accurate description of who I am with Sidereal Astrology, but you can try it out yourself and see how it works for you.

On the subject of topical being more about the seasons than the actual constilations, I remember that Sun Bear had a book out in the 1980s where he used the seasons to analyze a person's personality, so that might be an area to explore if you are so inclined. I think it was called Native American Astrology.

Hope this helps,

WizardT

I wrote an article recently in response to somebody asking me the difference between tropical (Western) astrology and sidereal (Vedic or Hindu) astrology.  I find that both systems are useful holographic blueprints through which to examine different things in your life. The Western system is better for examining "Western"-based issues like work, money, commerce, travel, material achievement, etc.  The Vedic system is much more soulful, better at revealing karmic energies, stuff you're working on through multiple lifetimes, the shadow side that needs to be addressed, and what you need to balance out within your psyche to become better integrated.

I REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY wish that Western astrologers were required to study Vedic astrology, since so many Western astrologers are overly cerebral and not very spiritual.

In Vedic astrology, for instance, if you have a poorly aspected planet, the astrologer will work with you to do a bunch of stream of consciousness brainstorming around the issues related to that planet so you can start doing a bunch of different things to embrace or heal that planet's energy within your psyche. So if your Mars is afflicted you'll be learning how to meditate on Mars energies and consciously work to embrace the positive power of Mars.

Western astrology tends to be presented much more as "You've got this crap going on which means your life sucks in this regard, that'll be $200, and you'd better schedule a follow up appointment in a few months so I can tell you how much your life is continuing to suck.'

Western cerebral type astrologers have little spiritual wisdom sometimes and aren't required to GO there to learn Western astrology.  They can just surround themselves in a comfortable world of charts and ephemerides and forget about actually HEALING the influences within the chart.

Whereas Vedic astrology has built within it a much more contemplative, metaphysical, illuminating framework. You won't always find a Vedic astrologer very helpful when you're trying to figure out when you'll land a new job, but you will find his guidance wonderful if you're at a stage in your life where you're turning within and looking at spiritual matters in your life.

Anyway, I wrote about this in this short article recently:

http://www.lipstickmystic.com/mail/astr … ereal.html

Thanks again for all the great info here.

LipstickMystic aka Jennifer

fixed Stars
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Saturn
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Jupiter
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Mars
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Sun (in the middle, joining the macrocosm of mars-jupiter-saturn to the microcosm of venus-mercury-moon)
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Venus (Chaldeans called it Mercury. Occult Venus in the orbit of the physical planet that we call today Mercury) 
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Mercury (Chaldeans called it Venus. Occult Mercury is in the orbit of the physical planet that we call today Venus)
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Moon

The Earth is our conciousness passing through all the planetary spheres.

This is explained by Steiner in his cycle of lectures Microcosm/Macrocosm

Thus, in astronomy, we have mercury closest to the sun, then venus, then the earth (including moon), then mars, then jupiter, saturn, uranus, neptune, pluto.

But in astrology, the names of mercury and venus have been interverted:
thus in the macrocosm venus (that astronomists call mercury) is clostes to the sun, then there is mercury (the venus of astronomy) and then there is the moon. The microcosm is all what is between us earth and the sun. the macrocosm is between us earth and the fixed stars: mars, jupiter and saturn. Uranus Neptune and Pluto do not enter the picture in the old traditional astrology, but the discovery of these planets by astronomists coheres with new steps in human spiritual development (in the case of these three planets, it is linked to technoscientific development): electricity (Galvani) and uranus (end of XVIIIth century), magnetism (Maxwell) and Neptune (second half of XIXth century), nuclear/atomic power and Pluto in the 1930's.

One might also analyse the influence of solar Eclipses, like the one that happenned august 11 1999. According to anthroposophists, such solar eclipses opens up the Abyss pit, so evil can enter the world through this window, during the time the planet is in darkness. However, when evil manifests, progressive forces also have an opportunity to enter our hearts, When the veil is lifted, both powers, retarded and progressive gain access top earth and souls.

The explanation that astro signs have more to do with seasons of the year is plausible. Maybe then the star patterns are configured into archetypal images that match whatever influence the season had during that epoch of time. So if the zodiac were redone now when much of what is considered Aries is actually in Pisces, then the constellation Aries can be re-interpreted as something more benign like "Sheep."  But I'm not sure how that would acccount for Rising and Moon signs, which have more to do with time of the day or month (and location of birth) than the season of the year.

I think that the main factors in astrology are the relationships between the sun, moon, and planets.

The seasons brings in the relationship the Earth and the Sun.  The positions of the moon and the planets are relevant as well.

I recommend Chaos Astrology for free birth chart readings:
http://www.chaosastrology.com/

The explanation that astro signs have more to do with seasons of the year is plausible. Maybe then the star patterns are configured into archetypal images that match whatever influence the season had during that epoch of time. So if the zodiac were redone now when much of what is considered Aries is actually in Pisces, then the constellation Aries can be re-interpreted as something more benign like "Sheep."  But I'm not sure how that would acccount for Rising and Moon signs, which have more to do with time of the day or month (and location of birth) than the season of the year.

[link <--- astrological significance of the various ages, Pisces / Aquarius, etc... another thing I'm curious about is whether hyper-dimensional "history" is encoded within these. For instance, whether a timeloop was anchored in the Age of Gemini (3rd sign, Gemini = divine twins, competition, yin yang between higher-D polarities) from an origin point in the Age of Aquarius (11th sign, Aquarius = unleasher of the great flood, holder of the mixing bowl of the gods) creating a timeloop of false reality matrix imprinted with the 3*11=33 numerological codes.]

Premature timing is a disinformation trick for sure. Push the fake thing ahead of the real one in order to pre-empt and thereby deflect the latter. Like the brewing third world war in the Middle East and all those religious nuts hopping up and down hoping it happens soon so that prophecy is fuliflled and Christ returns. Only, it will be the ante-Christ propelled into power by a faux armageddon. Just as a world apocalypse can be orchestrated ahead of schedule so that alien saviors can be rushed through as the bringers of a new Golden Age years before the actual transition to that age happens, in order to steer it all off course into a negative probable future.

The world has not overcome materialization. In fact far from being a sign of spiritualization that is supposed to signify the Age of Aquarius, the proliferation of radio, television, and internet has made this interim period basically an Age of Ahriman. But as far as where the vernal equinox is, right now it is in Pisces and within a couple hundred years will be fully in Aquarius. Then again does any of this matter if linear time breaks down....

It's also worth mentioning that Socrates' last tale before execution mentioned that the world as seen from a hyper-D perspective looks like a patchwork of 12 pieces. That is a dodecahedron, which the Greeks identified as the ether or the matrix in which the world was suspended. I find it possible that the 12 sides correlate with the 12 zodiac signs, and the signs are therefore relating to 12 sectors / entry ports / emanation streams of the 3D linear time Matrix that each have their archetypal domains corresponding to ages in linear history and, via a fractal self-similar process on a smaller scale, correspond also to Matrix-based facets of our personality and destiny.

As for the precession of the equinoxes, check out the book Hamlet's Mill which proposes that much of mythology encodes astronomical information about that very thing. There are myths about millstones becoming unhinged, for instance, relating supposedly to the heavens rotating around a different pole star previously.  But what the myths show is not a slow process of precession, but a sudden cataclysmic unhinging. This may relate to the Atlantian pole shift, but personally I believe it has more to do with the unhinging of our time axis.

The shorter day in winter solstice is the death of sun and its rebirth three days later (22 december longest night, 25 december so-called birth of Jesus-Christ or Sol Invicti, Sun unvanquished".Then days start to become longer, its the rebirth of sun.

St-John's Tide is three day after summer solstice. The sun starts to die and human beings get sulphurized by the activity of the Dragon. Michael sends his iron meteors in the beginning of august with the perseides (Perseus is like Michael). This sulphurization culmines in Michaelmas, when apples and leaves fall from the trees, and everything looks like dying. But in fact winter awakens,. it is not like sleep or death. Sumer is like a sleepwalking period of the year,. everything is dissolved in hot air are raises towards the cosmos. We are less inhibited, more sleepy, dreaming our lives. In winter, we are awoken by the icy cold air biting our faces and bodies. The sun is wide awake in the inner wearth in winter. Same with sleep and awakeness: during our day we are dying and become tired at the end of day, because cnosciousness burns us up, and deadens the etheric forces maintaining the body. when sleeps begins, we turn into vegetal beings, and our etheric revigorates itself like a growing plant. About 'sleeping really profoundly' in French, we say "sleeping like a log". The vegetative image is clear. So at the time of awakening we are in automn. At the time we go to sleep and fall into sleep, we are ourselves in spring, growth begins in our physical-etheric bodies and our spiritual-astral self dos into its own world living a life or its own, hidden.

In find that very interesting, it is like common sense to me.

1)our physiological frame (shape of the head and torso and belly as a whole)
2)our socio-educational programming and its relations to heredity (family, friends, education, large family gene pool and vibratory spiritual frequency, although one must not thikn of physical waves or rarefid matter here, it is an etheric spiritual level imprinted by astral and ego)
3)our temperament (phlegmatic, choleric, sanguine, melancholic)
4)our caracter (moon, mercury, venus, sun, mars, jupiter, saturn)
5)our sex (our etheric body is of the opposite sex)
6)fallen elementals that are too attached to us (we make elementals fall when we are not looking at the world properly, that is when we are not looking at the world as being spiritual and soulful. Developing and using technology put elementals on a downward falling path)
7)the geographic double (the quality of telluric emanations coming out of the earth, depending on where we live (is the an underground base near where you live? mountains? volcanoes? telluric fault lines and/or instabilities? In America, perticularly in the South-West of the USA, geomagnetic sorces are highly coherent with the quality of ahrimanic forces).

Beside astrology, we must consider at leaast all of these factors that are highly influencial, if not determining destiny, our temporal vehicle made up by our own karma and outer environmental conditions (pollution, poisoning of the water, etc.).

Or rather, how is it that sun signs are largely valid today but only according to how the sky used to be thousands of years ago?

I have come across an explanation for this.  It comes from the astrologer Steven Forrest in his book The Inner Sky.

He says that the seasons of the year have a primary influence and that the constellations were used as a marker for which season a person was born in.  The markers were set thousands of years ago, and have since shifted, but what they were marking – which part of the seasons we are born in – still corresponds to birth dates.

For example, the idea is that somebody born near the winter solstice when the days are short is going to be influenced by this – what we know of as a Capricorn.

Conversely, somebody born at the summer solstice will tend to have a different type of personality – the is the spring equinox and the fall equinox and of course all the variations in between.  So, by this model we have the seasons – Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter – and where one is born in the seasonal cycle having a primary effect on the individual.

However, i did study the spiritual evolution of mankind through the ages, from what Steiner called Ancient Saturn, Ancient Sun, ancient Moon, Earth (now). Earth pases through 7 condisiotns of life: 1st elemental ralm, 2d elemental realm, 3d elemental realm, mineral, and then in the future, 'all plant' realm, 'all animal' realm and 'all human' realm. Mineral deevlops into 7 conditions of form: spiritual (devachan) without form (arupa) or higher spiritual realm, spiritual with form (rupa) or lower spiritual realm, astral, physical (now), and then in the future perfected/plastic astral (psychic), intellectual (perfected lower spiritual realm) and archetypal (perfected higher spiritual realm. Our present physical stage develops into 7 Epochs: Polarian, Hyperborean, Lemurian, Atlanetan, Post-Atlantean (now) and in the future 6th Epoch and 7th Epoch. Post-Atlantean Eppch develops into the ancient Indian cultural epoch, the Ancient Persian, the ancient Egypto-Chaldean-Baylonian (Taurus), the Greco-roman (Aries or Lamb, in which Christ incarnated), the Germano-anglo-saxon (now, Pisces=1414-3573), and in the future the Slavo-Russian (Aquarius=3573-5735) and finally the American (Capricorn), in which the moon reunites with earth and swarms of spiders of materialistic-intellectual thinking (AI) gets hold upon the part of humanity that won't have been able to free itself from the Net of Matrix spiders.

Each and everyone planetary condition, condition of life, condition of form, Great Epoch and cultural epoch coheres with the develpment of the body and specific soul-spirit qualities. Each level is a recapitulation of the greater cycle into which it is embedded: for example: the 1st condition of life, that is the 1st elemental realm, is a recapitulation of ancient Saturn. Also, the 1st condition of form, that is the Higher spiritual (arupa), and the first Great Epoch, that is the Polarian epoch, are also recapitulations of ancient Saturn, but on their own limited level. The greater cycle reflects and repeats its seven phases in each one of the cycles the greater cycle carries within itself.

I myself find that Steiner's findings are highly usefool tools to investigtion de spiritual evolution of mankind, and also its downfall in materialism/intellectualism (the great Darkening that is the so-called Enlightenment).