Giving without reason is real STO. But, sometimes, giving is unconsciously motivated by STS motives. One must have the courage to face himself objectively and check if an apparent STO deed wasn't in fact motivated by STS.

I'm not so keen on this STO business, or at least feel that the definition is a bit skewed. If you are STO and serve other's needs before your own, then you in effect are unbalanced to the point of actually being STS because you are depleting your own energy reserves by giving energy to other's who may not be as STO as you are. This is not a healthy energy dynamic because you're funneling your energy into their life and thus their personal STS/STO frequency polarisation. Whereas personal fulfillment from by helping others is more balanced. It would sit on the frequency scale between STS and STO. Orgonite gifting when you have the energy to, and because you enjoy it, counts as balanced. But helping others by doing things you don't enjoy to the point that you neglect yourself counts as STO polarised, which is just as imbalanced as STS polarised.

So if someone needs help:
An STS says no, unless they think that by helping you, they will get back later more from you then they're giving.

A balanced person may help, but wouldn't if you don't have the energy, or your heart center / intuition says it just doesn't feel like it.

An STO person helps but then doesn't have the time or energy to get their needs (even valid entertainment or sexual needs) taken care of.

This ties in with the whole vitamin supplement thing. When people grasp for extra, beyond wholeness, super good feeling all the time, whether from vitamin supplements or STO polarisation, it actually creates problems. Because they tend to see weakness / unhappiness as a flaw, instead of a necessary part of the ebb and flow of enegy. Weakness gives way to rest, and unhappiness gives the opportunity to do a life review and see if anything needs changing.

My recent take on vitamins, is that I no longer take a multi-vitamin, because I have spirulina smoothies instead. I still take vitamin-C and calcium/magnesium, because I drink R.O. water and don't drink milk so I need the calcium suppliments to keep my nails healthy. If I could chew coca daily, then I wouldn't need the calcium tablets. I did get into suppliments in a big way when I was younger, because my health wasn't all that good. But they're too expensive and my health is better now, from eating a healthy vegetable-rich diet and cutting out foods my body doesn't tolerate well.

I do see people who go overboard on health fad things, and I feel that they're just the same as people who try to stay high all the time. If we could feel high and energised all the time, then we'd miss out on the experiences that rest and introspection offer. Being high all the time would like being in a dream world, it would feel nice, but you'd just get used to it eventually and there would be no real value to it. It's the difficult experiences that often provide the real impetus for growth. You can grow through positive experiences, and it would be nice to only grow through them. But the negative experiences are the back up plan, because it seems to me, that spiritual evolution is why we are here, and as spiritual beings we like to keep our options open.

How does one truly KNOW that their karmic entanglement with someone was resolved.  With some people it seems quite obvious to me, but others...well, Im not so sure.

I would say, your karmic entanglement gets resolved, when you can look back at the situation without feeling anger or regret, when you can see what you learned from the situation, and when you feel satisfied with your growth as a result of the situation.

Karmic entanglements with people are really about your relationship with yourself. Usually people form an entanglement with someone, and think it's resolved, but then get themselves in the same situation with someone else. Only when you confront your internal beliefs that create these situations, can you ever really permenently resolve them.

Here's an example, I had this internal belief that I must provide financially to other people for them to value me. This stemmed from the protestant work ethic where I was taught that if you don't work, you aren't providing value, and you're worthless, and thus unloveable. This manifested in my business dealing with my friends, where I let them build up huge debts to me, and I wouldn't confront them about it, because I was afraid that then they wouldn't want to be friends with me.

In one instance, although my friend owed me some money, I let him pay off his credit card debits instead of paying me back. He then didn't learn the pain of credit card debits and went and got another store card and piled on more debit. This taught me that taking on others people karma will prevent them from learning their lessons, and hinder your own growth by tying up your energy.

After a couple of years of having another friend be in debt to me, I eventually realised that the situation was so bad that I would rather confront him, and lose him as a friend then to continously feel unvalued when he didn't pay the full value for what he was taking from me. We had a heated emotional exchange, I told him that I let the situation go on for too long because I was afraid that he wouldn't want to be friends with me if I called the debt in. He explained how he knew the situation was bad, but prefered to be in denial and not think about it. Now there's no debt between us and our friendship is stronger than ever, because I feel able to discuss issues with him, where before I didn't.

Alaso, even if you think your karma relationship to somebody is completely balanced, yo can never be sure, so I suggest that one should always consider that there is always something more that can be done for the betterment of the relationship. Solving karmic relationship must not be done in calculation or in expectation of karmic reward or balance (this is STs way of solving karma relationships). Giving without reason is real STO. But, sometimes, giving is unconsciously motivated by STS motives. One must have the courage to face himself objectively and check if an apparent STO deed wasn't in fact motivated by STS.

This is what I think.

Bye

Druid

This might be changing the thread a little but....
Another question.  How does one truly KNOW that their karmic entanglement with someone was resolved.  With some people it seems quite obvious to me, but others...well, Im not so sure.

"Okay, but now you are talking to a person with a genetic disease that has no cure. I inheirited it from my mother. So Im carrying my mother's family's karma in my genetic makeup?"

I'm sorry. I didn't want to judge so quickly.
In fact, karmic illnesses are a sensible subject because it varies according to each and every individual. We must not juge people and say: 'well, if he's sick, that's karma and we must leave him that way in order that he fully lives up his bad karma." This kind of thinking is sickening me. This is not what I consider a proper understanding of karma. A real understanding of karma would be: If my neighbour has debts (STS karma), I can give him money and thus take upon me some of his karma. If one was to say: "I cannot help him because that would change his bank account, you would think he is inconsistent. It's the same thing for karma: One can take upon himself the karma of another person and thus help him by relieving him of a part of his heavy karma. So people who say 'we must not interfere with other people karma' didn't get it, they don't understand the true MORAL nature of karma.

You have a genetic disease. It does not mean that you are taking up mom's karma. It means probably (though I can't be sure) that you incarnated in this particular family with this perticular genetic makeup in order to purge karma. If your family is involved in your suffering, then they must also be purging karma with you. Being sick is normal. It means you have a soul and that you can be 'saved'! Soulless people do not get sick. God has forgot them, because they did so much harm to others that they almost can't be saved, i.e. they are firmly locked into STS, and do not want to 'repent', i.e. turn to STO.

Wisdom is cristallized pain and suffering. If you live your difficulties within a STO state of mind, you are evolving very rapidly. Live it with a STS attitude, and you might spend your life looking to escape from suffering. People then get trapped into STS fedding STS life-sucking hierarchies. 

Paying paramount attention to vitamins is a somewhat materialistic way of eating. Think more about the spiritual essence of your food. When Steiner was speaking about that (between 1900 and 1925 although his insights concern us and even the far away future), food waas as 'empty' as today. there was no question of biological agriculture. Still he was pushing forward biodynamic principles and methods, that give force vital force to food. Then food does not only "give enough vitamins and minerals", it enlivens  our life-body and comes from a type of agriculture that permits collaboration between the agriculturist and elementals (nature spirits). This not only gives great food, filled with life-giving substance, it also ennobles the earth itself by establishing a "ridge" between agriculturists and elementals. The earth itself needs this collaboration. This is a part of the mission of mankind: spiritualize the earth. Manicheans put it this way: ennoble dark matter and release the spiritual sparks that are mesmerized and trapped in matter. Thus one does not fight evil, one shows fallen elemental beings the way into the light. This is the true manichean principle: transforming evil, or in a alchemycal-rosicrucian way "ennobling matter" (like in making manure, making dead substance a source of life and beauty).

I think the best attitude to have toward your genetic handicap, Treehugger, is to start a profound inquiry about your own karmic background. You may ask help from an angel. He will help you to gain strenght and courage to face the hard times, but only if you are truly willing to 'repent', i.e. to turn to STO wholeheartedly (not halfheartedly). Could you have contracted STS tendencies in a past life that you can recognize now as a bugging dark cloud that hovers over your head? Are there social encounters that make you feel that you may have karmic entanglements with someone in perticular? We all have big karmic entanglements with relatives and people we encounter "randomly" (there is no luck, the people we meat and encounter, we all met them in our precedent life, ALL OF THEM!)

One may find karma and reincarnation very depressing. In fact, if we understand it rightly, it becomes a very optimistic reality: karma means that you made up in a past life the environment and circumstancs you live in now. I gives you responsibillity of your actions and their consequences, it is not an attack from evil forces, although evil forces are used by "good" powers to make us evolve (because we become more human is crisis situations). But that means also, and here's the positive side of karma, that you can start right now to become a better person, help others, turn to STO, and thus create the circumdtances and conditions of your fufure life! This means you are in control of your future! Isn't that marvelous? Reincarnation is an opportunity top become better, not a damnation (althoug most of the time we become worse persons than we were in a past life, because the balance of STO/STS actions bends more often on the STS side...

But i warn everybody to be careful not to speculate ignorantly about karmic relationships, because false ideas about karma are REALLY harmful to spiritual development. We must get clear about our karmic relationships. We must avoid confusion. Worse than that is relying on an outer autority. So think for yourself. Karmic relationships are a deeply serious and complicated matter. So I urge everybody not tojudge too quickly someone who lives difficulties. It maybe karmic but sometimes STO candidates have a very hard time because angels made their destiny that way so that the individual purges drastically and rapidly all his bad karma ; then the person will be ready to enter STO. Others do not seem to suffer much, but that does not mean they don't have a heavy karma. Some live in very poor countries where catastrophies occurs frequently ; this way many people purge all their karma and become true STO graduates (that is only if the person has changed himself and really want to become STO).

Courage,

Druid

I want to say regarding Steiner's (haha that's my cat's name) comments, many nutrients must be ingested,  such as vitamin C.  In my opinion, everybody could benefit from supplementing C, which the body cannot make on its own.  You cannot train your body to make C.

It seems to me that if a disease were truly karmic in origin, supplementing nutrients would not prevent it from manifesting.

For myself?  I would first assume that any disease or condition sprang from environmental causes and try alternative treatments and supplements.  In the event the condition does not respond to these, I would then consider a karmic origin.

Druid

I try to eat well, but it is not 100% good and I use vitamins to counterbalance
the polluted food/enviroment stressful life. Vitamin C comes most from the
lemon and A(beta carotene) from carrots, but E and B and other stuff comes from pills...
The day I can transmute things is the day I stop taking pills...

BTW, physical solutions are dependable external stuff also “half baked" , we can have
them today, but tomorrow...
Nothing like the equilibrium, using the better of the worlds.
Well, maybe in the next life

Montalk wrote:
"vegetables and fruits in particular - contain very little of the nutrition they did in his time (here is an article about this), meaning the problem today would be partly environmental and not just karmic, that modern technology of computer screens, televisions, fluorescent lighting, 60/50Hz powerline emissions and other electromagnetic pollution, plus fluoride and increased calcification of the pineal gland lead to artificial depression of melatonin production. "

This is strictly due to environmental causes, although from another ont of view, living in this poisoned environment is an expresion of global human karma (not indivudla karma). Same for genetic malfunctions: this is linked to family-bloodline karma.  there are many levels of karma: individual, family, community, ethnicity, race, gloabl human karma, planet-earth karma, etc. Also, I think we should never refrain from medical cures (except for those that are not real cures...). But on the other side of the same coin, some people never manage to evolve as spiritual beings because they have access to special treatments. That way, one never experiencs suffering and misses a great opportunity to evolve spiritually, moraly, etc. Wisdom is cristallised wisdom. One may be healthy in this life because of his health-obsessed lifestyle, but he misses the point of true spiritual development.

Of couse, vegetables and other food are lacking in vitamins. But maybe we should find Biological and maybe Biodynamical food instead of relying on vitamin supplements. By working in collaboration with elementals, biodynamic agriculture resolves the problem of the lack of vitamins in today's organic food. Biodynamic food are filled with spiritual essence, that is the real nourishing substance of food.

Treehugger wrote:
"would genetic disease then be considered karmic?"

Of course yes. Raising a handicaped child (instead of aborting pregnancy) is a marvelous armic opportunity for parents to gain access to true angelic guidance and thus spiritual evolution. The soul-spirit that is trying to incarnate in such a handicaped soul-body complex is thus tryuing to purge karma. This is an opportunity, not only for him, but also for his relatives, to turn themselves toward selflessness.

Many difficulties will fall upon us, of karmic origin, but they are not hindrances, they are more like springs to enlightenment and selflesness. Evil, illness, suffering and death have their purpose, but it can only be seen if we do not cling to the body and soul well-being (which means not to be afraid of the spiritual that manifest itself karmically and in hindrances. Reptoïds sure are evil, but like Mephistopheles, they always will the bad but can only do the good. That means the hindrances they put in our way can become stepboards for ascension, springs for spiritual understanding and evolution).

Best,

Druid

About vitamins, the author develops an idea of Steiner: when he talked about 'the future' (that is today), he said there would be some kind of 'health cult', an obsession with being healthy. Healthiness is not an end in itself, it is a means to an end. One must be healthy in soul to gain proper insights in the spiritual worlds. But physical and soul illnesses have their reasons: environmental and karmic causes.

If one always takes supplements, he gets the assurance that he won't get sick. But supplements bypass the natural cycle of food ingestion/digestion/recomposition in the blood and so on. n taking vitamins or any other supplement, my body does not learn to make up his own nutriments. For example, if I take melatonin hormone, my bodu does not learn to take up tryptophan and then make up with it serotonin and then finally make up melatonin. Taking melatonin supplements does not teach the body to make up his own melatonin, so one becomes some sort of addict, he relies on an outer source of melatonin, because his body cannot make it up the naturale way.

Same thing for nutriments and vitamins: if I take supplements of these, my body does not learn to make them up by itself. I rely on an outer consumption of supplements. I can impeach karmic illnesses to manifest themselves, but Doing this I only shovel snow forward: the karmic consequences of my past life (lack of morality and jugment take the form of physical illnesses in a later life) cannot manifest themselves in my present life, so they stay in the backstage waiting to manifest in a future life. Also, by bypassing karmic illnesses, I miss the development of great virtues and habilities. Being ill is not only senseless suffering, it helps us develop new faculties of soul, which make us evolve as a spiritual being. If bytaking supplements i impeahc illnesses to manifest in this present life, I miss the development of certain virtues and faculties of soul that were bound to the experience of suffering in karmic illnesses. Environmental illnesses are not due to karma, noly to an outer unhealthy environment, so these may be safely avoided.

A lot of people  know cannot agree with what Steiner expressed concerning abuse of vitamin supplements and the importance of living karmic illnesses. I believe they just do not undertand. However, Steiner is not an all-knower, so he may sometimes be mistaken. One must judge by himself and trough scientific and precise medical/naturopathic knowldege.

About fluorinated water, I want to point out that this is now a minor cause of fluoride intake: now there is sulfuryl fluoride pesticides used in fumigation on each and every alimentation products. I suggest you to take a look at this website: http://www.fluoridealert.org/sf/index.html
http://www.fluoridealert.org/conference/2006/sf.ppt

I attended the conference at the end of july in Canton, NY. It was fascinating though very scary to learn that dried eggs may contain as much as 900ppm of sulfuryl fluoride (in water, the maximum permitted is 1ppm, somtimes, 0,7ppm!). In wheat and cereals, in can be as much as 90ppm. In a single toothpaste (which is certainly not made for swallowing!) there is 1000ppm of fluoride, enough to kill a child. It is not far form the concentration of fluoride found in a single fumigated dried egg! Scary.

Watch out for fodd that present high concentrations of sulfuryl fluoride.

Druid

Interesting topic... when do physical aids - whether technology, medication, supplementation - assist us and when does it interfere? For instance, if someone gets cancer due to strictly an emotional blockage but uses a Rife device to wipe out the cancer, then the person can go on with their blockage and never suffer its consequences. I am all for second chances, that someone should get treatment at least the first time, but there's something to be said for using technology to circumvent metaphysical feedback processes. What comes to mind is the alien boss in Stargate who used a rejuvenation chamber to keep his body perpetually young - probably what the STS elite use with their exotic medical and rejuvenation methods and occult rituals. Black magic in its essence.

In regards to supplementation with vitamins and melatonin, I think the answer may be in this:

I would think that if circumventing the importance of living karmic illness is dangerous, then the same might not hold true for circumventing environmental illness. Sure, awareness determines how easily an environmental factor can screw us up - but in the case of deficiencies it cannot do anything unless gifted with the power of materializing the needed dietary substances from spacetime itself.

Steiner was right that there is a cult of health today. He was a seer and could see that much. I wonder whether he also saw the context of this, that food - vegetables and fruits in particular - contain very little of the nutrition they did in his time (here is an article about this), meaning the problem today would be partly environmental and not just karmic, that modern technology of computer screens, televisions, fluorescent lighting, 60/50Hz powerline emissions and other electromagnetic pollution, plus fluoride and increased calcification of the pineal gland lead to artificial depression of melatonin production.

Then again, the culture of health today is only in some cases about achieving physical equilibrium free of deficiencies. The rest is about overshooting equilibrium and becoming "superhuman" solely through physical means, and that's partly what Steiner was warning about. People sometimes just don't know any better. If you're loaded down with entity attachments and have zero discipline with your use of vital energy, and then take vitamin-B shots and drink Red Bulls to keep yourself chipper, that is bound to cause problems.

What would make sense to me is if environmental factors are treated with physical solutions, and karmic ones with metaphysical solutions. At least to the degree that the metaphysical solutions are not yet developed enough to substitute over the physical. For instance, cops wear body armor as necessity against physical bullets, but if developed enough they could stop bullets with their minds. Then the problem is, what incentive is there to grow the metaphysical if the physical solutions work just fine. Well, I think that's where choice comes in; esoteric development starts and continues with freewill.

So Druid... would genetic disease then be considered karmic?