*z3n3rg also scores points with his "I have a societal robotoid sub-routine that I can play to match whatever level they choose" as the intellectual survivor. lol

*some others just want to horn in to get a reaction for "look at me points". I am not immune so i understand.

Part of the problem of this is also the way it's framed.

We are abstract creatures now. Big frontal lobes interpret all input from previously stored memory and reject anything without reference there.
unless you can speak the code that engages those "subroutines"

It is mainly that "your" abstract ideas conflict with "my" abstract ideas! It is all just thinking basically...

Until there is enough silence inside to observe like a cat!

Emotion is a result of thinking specific thoughts and all of it is a
reaction to stimuli rather than simple observation.

There is no value in the fact that an idea is expressed in an abstract fashion.

As a matter of fact if you want to communicate at all, you'd be better off to be less abstract and come up with an example to engage us or anyone.
Everyone is abstracted by the process of thought and separated by that process. Into ideas that either "I" agree with or not.

All the energy is wasted on identifying and defending an abstract, conceptually based self, instead of "being here".

Is it you or is it me? (just wondering)

"I looked to the stars and what did I see?
An impassioned reflection; quite profound, yet still;
I pondered the Heavens for most a fortnight
Pierced was my tender heart by rays of insight;
The answers came freely
Wisdom born of the ages
Lest I free the masses from their cages;
Reflected was the beauty of billions of souls
Wishing and wandering in eons sublime
Searching for meaning between space and time;
Without form or shadow or resounding fear
Their time meant nothing, just memories in vain
Free to exist without purpose or reason
Crying the rain back onto the Earth
Missing the deserts where emptyness lurks
Filling the rivers with soul blood and mirth;
Loving the dust and the winds of change
Yearning for chances to struggle with pain;
After fourteen days and nights of reflection
I came to my senses and what did I find?
Visions in the night that shown so clear
Was nothing less than a mirror of me."

~~carefulcarpenter

The word 'assume' triggers an alarm for me to be alert.  It works when I read it or when I'm thinking of using it myself.

Currently, I'm in a 'live and let live' state of operation.  I will completely ignore most perceived manipulations and proceed as my heart tells me.  I no longer take other's perspectives personally.  At the same time I've done my best to relieve myself of haughtiness.  This is done by seeing all other selves as having equal potential as myself.  To see all other selves as a big family sharing in the possession of infinity.

Sometimes I just become the mind, visualizing the other thought origination centers (consciousnesses) around me.  All sharing the mindscape; the fabric of all existence.  The soup of infinite potential.

I found that those who are often angry and rationalize it, actually like it.  I have to allow them their anger but I don't have to allow it to impose on me.  I'll just continously point out the concrete examples of how their anger is infringing on me.  I'll make it clear that I'm not trying to change them but they must also show the same respect.

I think there is a good point raised here in questioning if all people are capable of reasoning in an abstract manner.

At this point I would have to say, emphatically, no.  Though some time ago I would have said just as emphatically, yes. 

I think if we look at the evidence in our own experience, we can see numerous examples of people who just don't seem to be able to make the leap.  They may be intelligent, well-educated, even witty, yet there still seems to be this line that they just can't/won't cross. 

What is especially strange is that I've noticed in some individuals is an uncanny ability to sense when an abstract concept is about to be expressed, and to turn the conversation in a different direction.   Very weird, since this ability can't reasonably be explained without abstraction. 

The problem/conflict I keep running into is the issue of elitism.  I'm reminded of the book "The Fifth Sacred Thing" where a subpopulation of people were genetically bred and raised to believe that they did not have souls, and could never get them.  So, kind of a slippery slope there. 

Nevertheless, I find people in my life who I am acquainted with, and even care about, with whom I won't even bother to bring up certain topics.  There's just no point.  They're not going to "go there" no matter what.   

I also have noticed that I seem to have rather poor judgment regarding who will "go there" and who will not.  I'm often surprised at how I will be so sure that somebody is "ready" to pop the red pill, and they will back away, sometimes quite forcefully.  And then somebody else who I never thought would go there dives right in with the slightest encouragement.

A curious conundrum.. .

Sharing what we learn wisely is the challenge and the measure of our hearts.

^Word up^

I'm afraid that your attempted demonstration here (of people's inability to accepts and discuss abstractly) only served to alienate most people who've read this thread.  Although, I know that was your original intention.  You set it up that way, to evoke specific responses that will prove your point.  But that is utterly disrespectful to everyone who did and did not respond to you.  Hell, I was pissed off too... until I spontaneously "popped" into your "world" (perspective) this afternoon while mowing the lawn.  Your experience is quite peaceful as are your intentions (or that's the way you see it).  I now understand that, but I wasn't quite sure what to say (or if to say anything at all) to you.  I have to admit that I prefer my perspective.  I'll take the whiplash sensations of reality; the anst and struggle; all of it... that's the reason I came here... to experience life on a visceral level.  An "ascended perspective" is fun to visit during meditation, but it's more fun to be able to sample *all* that life and spirit has to show us and get some sand in our shoes doing it.  Sharing what we learn wisely is the challenge and the measure of our hearts.

Peace

titmouse_ wrote:

Remember that the internet is a wonderful opportunity to do abstract thinking and creative expression.

However, it is a bad place to conduct an experiment where readers are lumped into the indifferent category rather than acknowledging the fact that calling upon everyone to participate is ineffective in the first place and also that there are no strong opinions in this debate, just strong emotions.

You make some good observations here. Abstract concepts do draw from the emotional rather than the rational. Not everyone will respond to such things because they do not want to revisit experiences or views that have caused them pain or discomfort in the past. Anger, for one, is always a problem to discuss.

I remain firm with the opinion that most people opt for the "C" (default) choice in life. This is what all leaders depend upon with their followers. When one actively seeks to find other possibilities in every situation life all of a sudden moves into another dimension, and doors begin to open. Those who choose not to think abstractly are trapped in routine and convention, thus depending on leadership and guidance. Remember, free will and spirit will lead a person farther along on life's path than skepticism and extreme scrutiny.

Remember that the internet is a wonderful opportunity to do abstract thinking and creative expression.

However, it is a bad place to conduct an experiment where readers are lumped into the indifferent category rather than acknowledging the fact that calling upon everyone to participate is ineffective in the first place and also that there are no strong opinions in this debate, just strong emotions.

Good post Natural Mystic. You suddenly reminded me of The Four Agreements, which is possibly what you were referring to.

titmouse_ wrote:

I'll assume those who do not respond are not capable of abstract thinking and are unenlightened.

Titmouse, you should read The Four Agreements.

Don Miguel Ruiz wrote:

"The Third Agreement is don't make assumptions.
We have the tendency to make assumptions about everything. The problem with making assumptions is that we believe they are the truth. We could swear they are real. We make assumptions about what others are thinking - we take it personally - then we blame them and react by sending emotional poison with our word. That is why whenever we make assumptions, we're asking for problems. We make an assumption, we misunderstand, we take it personally, and we end up creating a whole big drama for nothing.

Very insightful. Yes, I have read Ruiz, but this is shortsighted on your part, as well as the others whose myopic view missed the point. This was why I did the test--I wanted to see, first of all how few people would actually take the abstract challenge, and secondly to examine the responses.

What usually happens when abstract issues are looked at-- and considering the thread was a question about communication of such issues-- was to see how one could communicate to those who do not choose to engage in such conversation. In my experience, when an individual attempts to communicate abstract concepts to others they first encounter opposition and personal scrutiny, or personal accusations like "who do you think you are, Einstein?" As witnessed numerous times on the internet, one then gets a barrage of personal attacks rather than any serious inquiry--therefore those who do not want to communicate avoid such by finding fault in the author or the points expressed.

I did the test in a simplistic manner. I made a ridiculous example, or assumption, as a red herring to demonstrate abstractly why it is difficult to communicate abstract ideas to others. It isn't so much that people cannot understand abstract ideas as it is that people just aren't much interested when it comes to thinking outside their comfort zone. Rather than dicussing issues that are not attractive to those around you, it is much better to find those people who are interested in delving into such concepts.

I believe I caught many on this site who made assumptions rather than helpful comments to the thread starter. Ya'll might want to read Ruiz again, although I found him repetitive, redundant, simplistic, and not much of an abstract thinker, he does hit home on four basic principles that I live by in real life. Remember that the internet is a wonderful opportunity to do abstract thinking and creative expression.

Titmouse, you should read The Four Agreements.

Okay, here is an abstract thinking test. Look at Barefoot doc's avatar and describe what you see. Is there only one way to view this?

I'll assume those who do not respond are not capable of abstract thinking and are unenlightened.

When I first read your post, I did look the avatar and began to view the picture in different ways.  But the reason I didn't share what I thought was because of the last line quoted above.

To assume something is to make a prediction before experiencing the act itself.  Someone once said that to assume is the mother of all disappointments.  From an observing stand point, I say that most here are capable ot abstract thinking.

As for "those who do not respond", well the first idea that came to mind was a quotation;

titmouse_ wrote:

This abstract thinking test was not intended to do more than show that a majority of people will avoid a topic like this and leave the interpretation to someone with a stronger opinion--opting for the "C" (default) response, or agreement with the consensus.

.... And round and round we go,

I wouldn't fret yourself much with my opinion of you.

Good view--"round and round"-- a cycle is perpetuated!

The value of a creative imagination comes into play when dealing with those who, for whatever reason, are blind to the multiple perceptions available in any given situation. People have often suppressed their emotions and they leakout in indirect attitudes and actions. You have little ability to deal with these issues. You will never communicate your feelings and insights to people set in their ways.

In the example of Barefoot Doc's avatar:

I see four views.

#1: a rainbow. Stationary in space photographed at moments in time. When they are run as a continuous slide show they appear to be moving.

#2: a rainbow comet circling a black whole

#3: a black hole circling in front of a rainbow circle

#4: a visual representation of a paradox. All three descriptions could be true, yet seem to contradict.

I would think that others may see it differently. I would never assume that I could point out these views to another person. Maybe they are color blind; maybe they cannot focus on the black hole circling the rainbow circle.

In effect, we can look at the same object and do not agree--what happens when we are trying to discuss abstract concepts, like anger?  I try to see things from many perspectives because I discovered that the world is a dance of opposites, and we spend much time in power struggles with people who have no intention than holding tight to their egoic nature--which is NEVER to admit they could be limited in their view.  I try to admit to myself that the world has many possibilities in every situation, yet I find most people seek security in their subjective belief systems.

Alice Miller has a wonderful series of books on the subject of the inner child. She might help you to understand why people have repressed emotions and limit their worldviews to the group structure for which they feel safety and inclusiveness. The "brujo" (as Robert Pirsig describes) is always cast out. Family is an addictive structure for those who avoid thinking for themselves.

Keep thinking and questioning!

This abstract thinking test was not intended to do more than show that a majority of people will avoid a topic like this and leave the interpretation to someone with a stronger opinion--opting for the "C" (default) response, or agreement with the consensus.

.... And round and round we go, just like the rainbow on Doc's avatar.  There.  Does that qualify me as enlightened in your exalted opinion?

Seriously, what really happened here is you decided to play a little game, and you set the rules.  When none of the other kids wanted to play, you went off in the corner and called those kids "stupid."  That's the third-grade interpretation of your actions.