"Look, Sirs, because the mind is quiet, the body becomes still, not the other way round. You force your body to sit still. You do all kinds of things to come upon this strange beauty of silence. Do not do it, just observe. Look, Sirs, you know in all this are various powers of clairvoyance, reading somebody’s thought. There are various powers, you know what I am talking about, don’t you? You call them siddhis, don’t you? Do you know all these things are like candles – candlelight in the sun? When there is no sun, there is darkness, and then the light of the candle is very important; but when there is the sun, the light, the beauty, the clarity, then all these powers, these siddhis, are like candlelight. They have no value at all. And when you have the light, there is nothing else – developing various centres, the charkas, kundalinis, you know all that business. You need a sane, logical, reasoning mind, not a stupid mind. A mind that is dull can sit for centuries breathing, concentrating on various charkas, and you know all that playing with kundalinis, - it can never come upon that which is timeless, that which is real beauty, truth and love.

So put aside the candlelight which all the gurus and the books offer you. And do not repeat a word that you yourself have not seen the truth of, which you yourself have not tested."

more here: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/kr/med_clai.html

and more still here: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/kr/

=== JKrishnamurti.org - Daily Quote ===

Perverted pleasure

There is such a thing as sadism. Do you know what that word means? An author called the Marquis de Sade once wrote a book about a
man who enjoyed hurting people and seeing them suffer. From that comes the word sadism, which means deriving pleasure from the
suffering of others. For certain people there is a peculiar satisfaction in seeing others suffer. Watch yourself and see if you have
this feeling. It may not be obvious, but if it is there you will find that it expresses itself in the impulse to laugh when somebody
falls. You want those who are high to be pulled down; you criticize, gossip thoughtlessly about others, all of which is an
expression of insensitivity, a form of wanting to hurt people. One may injure another deliberately, with vengeance, or one may do it
unconsciously with a word, with a gesture with a look; but in either case the urge is to hurt somebody, and there are very few who
radically set aside this perverted form of pleasure."

Awareness does in fact stop the thought loops.  I find there were many stages or shall I say added weight to the awareness end of the scale that slowly counter-balanced the automatic thought loops.  Think of a scale.  One side of the scale has all the accumalated thought loops we have added to ourselves in response to our environement.  The other side would be awareness.  Weight needed to be added to the awareness side by actively stopping thought loops.  This required effort.  The weight of the thought loops made them automatic.  In other words, no effort simply because they were formed over many years and worked well for interacting with the environment around me.

So it did take effort to stop these thought loops.  At the same time, there were many that would not cease.  I needed to examine these and find out why they still played out automatically during certain circumstances.  Then I needed to basically find the root and add new learnings to show my mind these thought loops were no longer necessary.  I was teaching my old self with new realizations.

This added weight to the awareness side of the scale.  In other words, the effort helped make the awareness slowly become the more natural state of mind.  A favorite song quote comes to mind.  "Another robot learns to be something more than a machine".

I also added mental alarms for thought loops that I was keeping an eye out for.  If I slacked in awareness, which early on was the majority of time, I would have an alarm go of for certain thought loops.  Then I could stop and examine the thoughts and the situations that were playing out during the thought loops.  Same as above, I would add new logic to show myself these thought loops were no longer necessary.

Slowly but surely the scales were tipped in favor of a non-effort awareness (instead of non-effort thought loops).  20 years worth of that robot mentality.  10 years worth of effort to tip the scales.  Honestly, I haven't completely finished in regard to the cultivation of non-effort awareness.  However, the scales have tipped and it gets easier everyday to stay in that awareness.

I don't necessarily think my personal experiences negate what Krishnamurti is stating.  I just didn't see the path from 'robot to awareness' in the quotes you gave.  I like the higher level teachings.  I like seeing the end result first and then forming the path to get there from my current position.  Some of the first teachings that started me on my path were just like the quotes you gave.  But being personally realistic, I was unable to hold the awareness straight out of the box.  So I just took the teachings to be the result of work.  That once you got there the non-effort awareness had the properties described.  Those higher level teachings were one part of the motivation that kept me going.  I wanted to experience the results that those teachings showed me.

---

What takes place when you give complete attention to the thing that we call violence?–violence being not only what separates human beings, through belief, conditioning, and so on, but also what comes into being when we are seeking personal security, or the security of individuality through a pattern of society. Can you look at that violence with complete attention? And when you look at that violence with complete attention, what takes place? When you give complete attention to anything–your learning of history or mathematics, looking at your wife or your husband–what takes place? I do not know if you have gone into it–probably most of us have never given complete attention to anything–but when you do, what takes place? Sirs, what is attention? Surely when you are giving complete attention there is care, and you cannot care if you have no affection, no love. And when you give attention in which there is love, is there violence? You are following? Formally I have condemned violence, I have escaped from it, I have justified it, I have said it is natural. All these things are inattention. But when I give attention to what I have called violence–and in that attention there is care, affection, love–where is there space for violence?

---

In self-awareness there is no need for confession, for self-awareness creates the mirror in which all things are reflected without distortion. Every thought-feeling is thrown, as it were, on the screen of awareness to be observed, studied and understood; but this flow of understanding is blocked when there is condemnation or acceptance, judgment or identification. The more the screen is watched and understood–not as a duty or enforced practice, but because pain and sorrow have created the insatiable interest that brings its own discipline–the greater the intensity of awareness, and this in turn brings heightened understanding.

...You can follow a thing if it moves slowly; a rapid machine must be made to slow down if one is to study its movements. Similarly, thoughts-feelings can be studied and understood only if the mind is capable of proceeding slowly; but once it has awakened this capacity, it can move at a high velocity, which makes it extremely calm. When revolving at high speed the several blades of a fan appear to be a solid sheet of metal. Our difficulty is to make the mind revolve slowly so that each thought-feeling can be followed and understood. What is deeply and thoroughly understood will not repeat itself.

---

in awareness there is no becoming, there is no end to be gained. There is silent observation without choice and condemnation, from which there comes understanding. In this process when thought and feeling unfold themselves, which is only possible when there is neither acquisition nor acceptance, then there comes an extensional awareness, all the hidden layers and their significance are revealed. This awareness reveals that creative emptiness which cannot be imagined or formulated. This extensional awareness and the creative emptiness are a total process and are not different stages. When you silently observe a problem without condemnation, justification, there comes passive awareness. In this passive awareness, the problem is understood and dissolved. In awareness there is heightened sensitivity, in which there is the highest form of negative thinking. When the mind is formulating, producing, there can be no creation. It is only when the mind is still and empty, when it is not creating a problem–in that alert passivity there is creation. Creation can only take place in negation, which is not the opposite of the positive. Being nothing is not the antithesis of being something. A problem comes into being only when there is a search for result. When the search for result ceases, then only is there no problem.

J. Krishnamurti

----------------------------------------

z3: i wonder if it was awareness of the thoughtloops and an understanding of their affect(s) which is what got rid of them ?? is that at all a possiblity ? could it actually be the same thing you were saying - that you had to get rid of them -- the way you state it though implies 'effort' ... i think what K is asserting is that once you understand something by coming fully in contact with it - it 'naturally' will cease - at least that's what i get ...

in my own experience, not just thoughtloops - but 'actionloops' - the root of which is the thoughtloop, i guess - it was my awareness of what was going on - just seeing what was happening as a result - which is what stopped them - i guess i could also say there was an intent to stop it - but that intent wasn't formed by force - by will - it came as a result of me seeing what the thoughtloops and actionloops were doing - being in contact with all that was going on ... that's how i dropped a few bad habbits that had a very strong hold on me ... and it didn't really happen all at once either - but i found those loops getting less and less strength when i observed what was going on - eventually it got to a point where i could watch what was happening without taking action (i.e., giving into the urge - i.e., smoking) ... anyways - that's my experience with it - i'm just a regular kid but this stuff makes sense 'cause i have/i am put/putting myself to the test ... and i've slipped along the way many a time but always manage to get up (so far)

visavis - when you say, to grow in awareness, discipline(s) are necessary - what is the cause of that discipline ? i mean what's the driving force behind it ? i think understanding the motive behind why i want to have awareness or anything is important - regardless of whatever that motive happens to be -- and what exactly do you mean by the actual word 'discipline' because people may have a different understanding of that word --- in those quotes  listed above - i think K touches on some of this  ...  again - to accept what's being said by K or anyone outright i think is foolish - so good to question and go into these things for oneself most definitely - and also - i think in some ways it's  a little rediculous of me to be putting up these quotes from K because a) i can't validate everything that he's saying - i guess i'm just putting it out there 'cause it challenges me and i want to hear what others think/feel - b) these are snippets from whole conversations/dialogues/stuff he wrote - so it would probably make more sense to look at the whole message if one was really interested

However, I do believe that when one is intune with one's higher self, then the 'effort' that is required to be disciplined (ie meditating, for example) isn't really an *effort*, it's just something that flows out of you.  Perhaps it's semantics - perhaps this is something at least similar of what the author meant.

If awareness is practiced, made into a habit, then it becomes tedious and painful. Awareness cannot be disciplined. That which is practiced is no longer awareness, for in practice is implied the creation of habit, the exertion of effort and will. Effort is distortion.

In a very real sense this is true.  However, it doesn't take into account the personality or the ego.  Yes, you gain the awareness without effort or practice.  But, to keep the awareness I, at least, had to get rid of the thought loops that played almost continuously.  I had to clear a path and prepare the ground so to speak.  'Practicing the awareness' was the intent and action of stopping the noise.  So in that sense, the effort or practice was not attached to the awareness but effort and practice were involved in the equation.

If others have the same sort of thought loops then I think this distinction is important.  Otherwise, those thought loops act as a magnet for the attention.  Only when I cleared the mental space of attention magnets was the awareness without effort or practice.

That's just my observations.  Has anyone else done this awareness thing?  How long can you stop thinking for?  If not, can someone else try it and report back.  I think it would be great to have more first hand observations on the usage of these types of teachings.

the other day i was riding my bike and passed a couple of gentlemen under a bridge at one point - immediately as i was passing them - i noticed something happened to myself on the inside - it may have been very faint, but i noticed myself kind of go into caution mode - sort of in a way saying to myself - watch out - some would say that's a natural reaction, but whatever it was - it was like - my own response - almost like i had my mind made up about these guys that they may be dangerous - that's actually sort of along the lines of what i was thinking/feeling --- i went a little ways further ahead and came turned back around 'cause the road was blocked, to pass the two gentlemen again - this time - i was just watching - and noticed there was nothing really for me to be cautious about - they were two dudes just chatting it up - seemed perfectly nice ...

for me - that was like an example of the 'background' coming up - the thing that made me go, watch out - and me paying more attention to the background than to the fact of what was there the first time around - then when i came by around again - i was just observing the gentlemen without the background - which is how i came to realize they were just ordinary dudes who happened to be having a conversation under this bridge - i noticed the clothes they were wearing - all the details were there the second time - not so the first time ...

i got this quote today - this is a good one to chew on:

---
If awareness is practiced, made into a habit, then it becomes tedious and painful. Awareness cannot be disciplined. That which is practiced is no longer awareness, for in practice is implied the creation of habit, the exertion of effort and will. Effort is distortion. There is not only the awareness of the outer–of the flight of birds, of shadows, of the restless sea, the trees and the wind, the beggar and the luxurious cars that pass by–but also there is the awareness of the psychological process, the inward tension and conflict. You do not condemn a bird in flight; you observe it, you see the beauty of it. But, when you consider your own inward strife, you condemn it or justify it. You are incapable of observing this inward conflict without choice or justification.

To be aware of your thought and feeling without identification and denial is not tedious and painful, but in search of a result, an end to be gained, conflict is increased and the tedium of strife begins.

J. Krishnamurti

We have to be aware of our conditioning, and that conditioning shows itself when we observe a fact; and as you are concerned with the observation of the fact and not with the background, the background is pushed aside.

You want to know that you have arrived. This indicates, does it not, that you are listening in order to achieve a particular state, a place where you will never be disturbed, where you will find everlasting happiness, permanent bliss. But as I said previously, there is no arriving, there is only the movement of learning–and that is the beauty of life.---

In awareness there is only the present.

Those are the quotations I found most profound.  And this reminds me of an article I read posted by Marcus on in2world.net

http://in2worlds.net/two-worlds

It talks about how children are always in this state of awarness, and how slowly - by conditioning -  we loose that awareness and begin thinking in terms of PAST and FUTURE, and stop living in the now.  We develope the concept of "I" "Me", "Mine" and "Own/Possesion" instead of being in the NOW and accepting each fluid moment. 

So how do we become aware?  How do we come back to our childlike imagination?

-----

Awareness is that state of mind which observes something without any condemnation or acceptance, which merely faces the thing as it is. When you look at a flower nonbotanically, then you see the totality of the flower; but if your mind is completely taken up with the botanical knowledge of what the flower is, you are not totally looking at the flower. Though you may have knowledge of the flower, if that knowledge takes the whole ground of your mind, the whole field of your mind, then you are not looking totally at the flower.

So, to look at a fact is to be aware. In that awareness, there is no choice, no condemnation, no like or dislike. But most of us are incapable of doing this because traditionally, occupationally, in every way, we are not capable of facing the fact without the background. We have to be aware of the background. We have to be aware of our conditioning, and that conditioning shows itself when we observe a fact; and as you are concerned with the observation of the fact and not with the background, the background is pushed aside. When the main interest is to understand the fact only, and when you see that the background prevents you from understanding the fact, then the vital interest in the fact wipes away the background.

---

Can humility be practiced? Surely, to be conscious that you are humble is not to be humble. You want to know that you have arrived. This indicates, does it not, that you are listening in order to achieve a particular state, a place where you will never be disturbed, where you will find everlasting happiness, permanent bliss. But as I said previously, there is no arriving, there is only the movement of learning–and that is the beauty of life. If you have arrived, there is nothing more. And all of you have arrived, or you want to arrive, not only in your business, but in everything you do; so you are dissatisfied, frustrated, miserable. Sirs, there is no place at which to arrive, there is just this movement of learning which becomes painful only when there is accumulation. A mind that listens with complete attention will never look for a result because it is constantly unfolding; like a river, it is always in movement. Such a mind is totally unconscious of its own activity, in the sense that there is no perpetuation of a self, of a "me," which is seeking to achieve an end.

---

In awareness there is only the present–that is, being aware, you see the past process of influence which controls the present and modifies the future. Awareness is an integral process, not a process of division. For example, if I ask the question, “Do I believe in God?” –in the very process of asking, I can observe, if I am aware, what it is that is making me ask that question; if I am aware I can perceive what have been and what are the forces at work that are compelling me to ask that question. Then I am aware of various forms of fear–those of my ancestors who have created a certain idea of God and have handed it down to me, and combining their idea with my present reactions, I have modified or changed the concept of God. If I am aware, I perceive this entire process of the past, its effect in the present and in the future, integrally, as a whole.

If one is aware, one sees how through fear one's concept of God arose; or perhaps there was a person who had an original experience of reality or of God and communicated it to another who in his greediness made it his own, and gave impetus to the process of imitation. Awareness is the process of completeness, and introspection is incomplete. The result of introspection is morbid, painful, whereas awareness is enthusiasm and joy.

J. Krishnamurti

Another thing I did was practice with the most mundade of things.  For instance, walk to your kitchen and make a sandwich without thinking or labelling anything.  Instead, use only awareness.

Still another trick I've done is the 50% method.  Go make that sandwich at 50% your normal speed.  That includes each arm movement and footstep.  Catch and correct yourself if any movement goes normal speed.

The 50% method is profound (to me) in and of itself.  At 50% I notice the gravity, wind resistance, change in temperature, air flow, muscle contraction, etc.  Add in non-thinking/non-labelling and it's really an alien feeling of awareness.

Pouring a glass of water becomes a new experience.

See in 3d, mentally.  Normal awareness is a labelling of the surface world.  A 2-dimensional planar awareness.  Get a glass and pour some water.  But add the next dimension and get the essense back.  You feel the pull of gravity on the glass.  You feel the extra force as the billions of bounded hydrogen and oxygen atoms collide with a glass floor.  You feel the air being displaced from inside the glass.  And other nuances.  Do it without thinking and the awareness shift is rather pronounced.

The active non-thinking quiets the conscious mind so the subconscious can be felt.  The subconscious knowledge comes forth as just knowing.  The subconscious is still all about movement.  Movement of energy compared with the conscious's movement of matter.  Quiet the subconscious and you can tap the unconscious (I assume).

There does seem to be a few byproducts that come with the non-thinking/non-labelling essence-tial awareness.  For one, the ego doesn't do too well without the use of thoughts.  Another byproduct is the underlining joy of life seems to slip back through the muck of societal living that we allowed to cover our true natures.

sure, that could be one explanation or phenomenon that happens ... usually - when i'm "on top of my game" (which i haven't been during the last 2-3 days), i feel more visible and invisible at the same time - depending on who's watching back - people with the same vibe - very easy to greet 'n' meet - it's mostly smiles, head nodds and hellos ...

when that state of attention is there, i tend to catch so many details - perception is definitely heightened - and it's people who probably have lots of things on their or maybe just something on their mind ("tick-tockers") that i notice not noticing things around them as much ...

about this personal incident i mentioned - i think it was perhaps really just my inattention (although it could have been other stuff as well, i suppose) - but if anyone was to ask my family about me - one thing they might say is that i sometimes don't have a good "attention span". well - at times, that's true -that's been the tendency more so in the past than now - but that kind of stuff still happens to me ... i use to smoke pot for years - i wonder if i've perma-fried my brain to some extent ... *sigh* *shrugh* p)

natural mystic - i agree with the last thing you said - attention and intuition go together methinks - but it's interesting in the way K talks about it - how if you try to attend - well - your very effort thwarts the whole thing ...

Natural Mystic, I have been noticing over the past couple months that for me anyway, things are manifesting much faster.  I try to be real careful that I dont dwell on things too long.  Not easy for me to do, hehe.   *Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it*

And other times when I feel down or whatever, my aura isn't projecting much so I go semi-voluntarily invisible.  The "tick-tocker" people especially do not percieve me easily.  If that makes any sense.  The whole invisible thing could be due to one of a number of different things I think.